- Location
- Patterson, Ca
If you're building a mud truck on 44's and rockwells 8.5" would be suitable.
Xj 8 inch short arm coils bowing forward
- Thread starter Scotto6591
- Start date
NorCalChris
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Coast, Ca
This is exactly what needs to be done, looks like you figured it out though by reading your posts.
This is not true. I run 6.5inchs and my geometry is great. granted he is 2inch taller, It wont be perfect geometry, but this is not something long arms will fix, his coil length is the only thing that will fix this.
the portion in Bold is not true either. While I'll agree 8.5 inchs of lift is just way too much, there isnt any reason for him to go to long arms because of this.
While long arms do fix geometry, so do drop brackets. Most people I know who have gone from drop brackets to long arms and didnt change ANYTHING else, did not notice any handling or ride difference.
I agree 100%
yup. you will battle that one til the day you die
jrowell
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield
But... But... Long arms are sooo awesome.... They fix everything!
Seriously, swapping in long arms isn't going to Change anything but the amount in your bank account.
Lose some lift.
Seriously, swapping in long arms isn't going to Change anything but the amount in your bank account.
Lose some lift.
NorCalChris
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Coast, Ca
Yea yea yea. Long arms are cool. And they work. I just hate when people bash drop brackets and say go long arms. I then say, have you ever ran both?
No? Then quit spreading bullshit.
Yes? Ok, did you ever get hung up or were not able to get through an obstacle BECAUSE of your drop brackets?
No? Ok then you didn't need long arms.
Yes? Ok, did your long arms allow you to get through the same obsticle?
No? Hahaha
Yes? Then in your situation long arms were the way to go and better then drop brackets.
CAJJ93XJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Roseville, CA
haha I'm still a drop bracket hater. theres just some parts you can look at and say "I ain't putting that shit on my car." one of my main gripes is the people who claim drop brackets ride just as good as long arms
drop brackets lower your angle to about stock right? well the stock ride quality sucked IMO. I want something that moves on a larger radius
and if I was sliding over rocks that were scraping my high clearance T&T arms I'm sure the drop brackets would've been a problem
I'm not trying to start a debate here. but the brackets definitely aren't the right choice for everyone. different folks with different needs I suppose. I'd rather just pony up the dough and get some LA's
drop brackets lower your angle to about stock right? well the stock ride quality sucked IMO. I want something that moves on a larger radius
and if I was sliding over rocks that were scraping my high clearance T&T arms I'm sure the drop brackets would've been a problem
I'm not trying to start a debate here. but the brackets definitely aren't the right choice for everyone. different folks with different needs I suppose. I'd rather just pony up the dough and get some LA's
jrowell
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield
Re: Re: Xj 8 inch short arm coils bowing forward
Regardless, the DBs are not the original posters problem here.
For not starting a debate you sure spout a lot of anti DB B.S. 8=)
Regardless, the DBs are not the original posters problem here.
CAJJ93XJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Roseville, CA
come on man I had to throw in a disclaimer. that's enough to allow me to say whatever I want and not start a fight, right?
but are you sure? I mean I know I've seen an 8" lift or two with long arms that look just fine.. you know, because the long arms are long enough to keep the axle where it belongs?
I dunno
jrowell
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield
Re: Re: Xj 8 inch short arm coils bowing forward
Before long arms and the low cog craze, there were a ton of rigs running 6-8" on DBs without issue. If it's set up properly, it's not a problem. (and rides "better" than stock).
come on man I had to throw in a disclaimer. that's enough to allow me to say whatever I want and not start a fight, right?
but are you sure? I mean I know I've seen an 8" lift or two with long arms that look just fine.. you know, because the long arms are long enough to keep the axle where it belongs?
I dunno
Before long arms and the low cog craze, there were a ton of rigs running 6-8" on DBs without issue. If it's set up properly, it's not a problem. (and rides "better" than stock).
- Location
- Patterson, Ca
I'll admit I've never run db's, but they do not maintain stock geometry. The uppers are at a very steep angle at 8.5" of lift. As the axle droops with the upper arm at a steeper angle than the lower it rolls the pinion downward far more than the stock arrangement ever did with the same amount of travel. Is it enough to cause problems? Maybe not, but I can build a 3 link for less than the cost of adjustable uppers and lowers and drop brackets. And building your own short arms might save $40 over long arms as 2"x.25" wall dom cost me $10 a foot last week.
VAhasnoWAVES
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Lake City, Mi
you do know that drop brackets relocate both the upper, and lower control arm, correct?
maybe i read wrong, but it sounds like your implying only the lowers are moved.
maybe i read wrong, but it sounds like your implying only the lowers are moved.
- Location
- Patterson, Ca
I typed it wrong, the rough country db's drop the upper almost an inch more than the lower iirc, leading to the pinion pointing up more on droop and down more on compression than he stock set up. The fact is the factory geometry isn't good for long travel suspensions anyway. The axle moves forward and back a lot more than it does with long arms due to the swing arc. If you've ever seen an axle that is drooped out on short arms encounter an obstacle, it looks as though the axle is going to push back under the vehicle. The last trip out the wife's wj still had short rear arms. After she broke an axle shaft, she backed up against a large rock and I thought for sure the axle was going to rip off before she got over it. Next time out it will have a 14bolt and triangulated 4 link to remove these problems.
jrowell
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield
I'd like to see some pics from the OP.
It's been said a couple times in this thread. It's not the DB's, it's the setup. And drop that sucker down a couple inches.
It's always frustrating when people jump on DB's and say long arms are the only way to go. I've have nothing against (some) LA's and If I was building another XJ now, I would get LA's. But telling somebody that already has DB's that LA's will change everything is bogus.
I have an 87 with 5.5" lift, RE DB's. on 35's. My Father has an 88 with 5.5 TNT LA's on 35's. They both perform great. They are both equally capable rigs. The DB rig rides better on the street and on the trail. It's all about the setup.
It's been said a couple times in this thread. It's not the DB's, it's the setup. And drop that sucker down a couple inches.
It's always frustrating when people jump on DB's and say long arms are the only way to go. I've have nothing against (some) LA's and If I was building another XJ now, I would get LA's. But telling somebody that already has DB's that LA's will change everything is bogus.
I have an 87 with 5.5" lift, RE DB's. on 35's. My Father has an 88 with 5.5 TNT LA's on 35's. They both perform great. They are both equally capable rigs. The DB rig rides better on the street and on the trail. It's all about the setup.
Wow, it's amazing how these threads sometimes spiral.
Background, I and my close buddy both have XJ's, and have had different suspensions over the years. We have gone from stock arms to adjustable arms on 3"-4" lifts, to drop brackets up to 6.5" lifts then to 8.5" lifts, then to TNT long arms. Going from the first two set ups to the long arms was like night and day. The harsh ride on the street and trail was now like just floating over the bumps and dips.Truly an amazing difference. Not to mention the now ridiculous amount of flex. To those that say there's no difference between the drop bracket and long arm set up, I respectively have to disagree. And my buddy feels the same.
I did not suggest to the OP to get long arms because he had drop brackets, I suggested the long arms because of his amount of lift. Drop brackets in the correct situation are fine, but in this case, the amount of lift involved is extreme.
I've been there and did that. Yes, theoretically, you can use a stock location, adjustable arms for 8.5" of lift. And, theoretically, you can use a drop bracket, adjustable arm set up for 8.5" of lift. In the first case, the arms are almost straight up and down, and in the second, they're almost at 45 degrees.
When you hit a bump, the movement with the short arm set up (at this extreme height)is basically trying to shove the axle straight inline with the bushings both axle side and chassis side with the impulse being transmitted to the chassis. Whereas with the long arm set up since the angle of the bushings is at a much lower angle, the tendency is for the axle to be pushed up, as it is supposed to be, and the movement is then transmitted and dampened by the shock absorbers.
Now, back to the OP original question. In order for the pinion to be where it needs to be and to have the coil buckets and the inner C's to be in correct alignment, you would need to rotate the axle tubes in relation to the cast center section, just as I have already stated. Yes you could grind the weld off of the inner C's, rotate them, and then weld them back on, and then cut off the coil buckets and weld on new ones in the correct location and angle, but that is a whole lot more work and added expense (new coil buckets), not to mention the lower control arm mounts are now higher and closer to the bottom of where the shocks mount and could cause interference issues. Hell of a lot easier to just rotate the tubes.
And yes, this is too much lift. I have went to 35's and I am in the midst of coming down to 6.5" of lift. My buddy is still around 9". Why you ask? We play on the outskirts of Vegas and in the nearby mountains and there are lots of huge rocks and things that we were getting hung up on. We like the clearance, makes it easier to get to the hard to get to places. Different strokes.....
Background, I and my close buddy both have XJ's, and have had different suspensions over the years. We have gone from stock arms to adjustable arms on 3"-4" lifts, to drop brackets up to 6.5" lifts then to 8.5" lifts, then to TNT long arms. Going from the first two set ups to the long arms was like night and day. The harsh ride on the street and trail was now like just floating over the bumps and dips.Truly an amazing difference. Not to mention the now ridiculous amount of flex. To those that say there's no difference between the drop bracket and long arm set up, I respectively have to disagree. And my buddy feels the same.
I did not suggest to the OP to get long arms because he had drop brackets, I suggested the long arms because of his amount of lift. Drop brackets in the correct situation are fine, but in this case, the amount of lift involved is extreme.
I've been there and did that. Yes, theoretically, you can use a stock location, adjustable arms for 8.5" of lift. And, theoretically, you can use a drop bracket, adjustable arm set up for 8.5" of lift. In the first case, the arms are almost straight up and down, and in the second, they're almost at 45 degrees.
When you hit a bump, the movement with the short arm set up (at this extreme height)is basically trying to shove the axle straight inline with the bushings both axle side and chassis side with the impulse being transmitted to the chassis. Whereas with the long arm set up since the angle of the bushings is at a much lower angle, the tendency is for the axle to be pushed up, as it is supposed to be, and the movement is then transmitted and dampened by the shock absorbers.
Now, back to the OP original question. In order for the pinion to be where it needs to be and to have the coil buckets and the inner C's to be in correct alignment, you would need to rotate the axle tubes in relation to the cast center section, just as I have already stated. Yes you could grind the weld off of the inner C's, rotate them, and then weld them back on, and then cut off the coil buckets and weld on new ones in the correct location and angle, but that is a whole lot more work and added expense (new coil buckets), not to mention the lower control arm mounts are now higher and closer to the bottom of where the shocks mount and could cause interference issues. Hell of a lot easier to just rotate the tubes.
And yes, this is too much lift. I have went to 35's and I am in the midst of coming down to 6.5" of lift. My buddy is still around 9". Why you ask? We play on the outskirts of Vegas and in the nearby mountains and there are lots of huge rocks and things that we were getting hung up on. We like the clearance, makes it easier to get to the hard to get to places. Different strokes.....
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CAJJ93XJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Roseville, CA
yeah I have to believe that the LA ride quality would be significantly better than the DB's. the physics just don't add up. but then again I'm terrible at math :eyes:
When I was on 6.5 inches of lift I went from drop brackets with Rubicon express super flex arms to TNT long arm kit, absolutely no difference in ride or handling but much beefier. Now on 4.5 inches of lift with TNT long arms and 35s its pretty much perfect.
I don't know at what amount of lift the static angle of the long arms is better then drop bracket arms, Im sure with some time and math it wouldnt be to hard to figure but at least at 6.5 it must be pretty close.
I don't know at what amount of lift the static angle of the long arms is better then drop bracket arms, Im sure with some time and math it wouldnt be to hard to figure but at least at 6.5 it must be pretty close.
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I guess, the higher the lift, the more that you feel the benefits. I don't know, I certainly noticed a huge improvement. When I first installed the long arms, I would be coming up to a rough section with holes about 1/2 of my tire diameter deep(33" at the time), and I would clench the steering wheel thinking "this is gonna suck" and it would just float over it, then thinking, "wow, that was awesome!". I guess YMMV. Worked for me!
jrowell
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield
I'd have to guess that you changed the springs and or shocks at the same time you changed the DB's to LA's, and maybe that's the difference you felt. As I currently have both of those basic setups side by side and there is no amazing difference between them (just my opinion). And my buddy & his uncle agree with me! (Just kidding with you) Didn't mean to turn this into a DB VS LA thread... clearly some long arm setups are better and that's how I would do it if I was beginning a build... and these are just my opinions, don't read any fighting or anger in the above text. If your ever over this way, let's go wheeling!
I do agree that OP needs to lose some lift. and I would still love to see some pics of the setup.
- Location
- Wasatch Range
Think all this SA vs LA talk scared off the OP.............
jrowell
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield
Conspiracy theory: Somebody created an account just to plant the seed for a SA VS LA debate.
I feel so used!
bluejeepkid
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bullhead City
This is incorrect. Looks at the geometry and angle of the arms with db's and long arms. The physics do add up. In fact, they LITERALLY add up. Just sayin.