who ya voting for?

[Kejtar]

We could have gone to the UN, we could have stopped supplying Sadam with weapons, we could have stopped all trade with Iraq, etc.

Didn't the UN fail over the previous few years when Iraq kept breaking the rules of the treaty or whatever it is they signed by installing anti aircraft weapons and other things??? What did UN do? Groan and moan and that's about it...

 

[Darky]

Yeah, I'm not seeing the whole invading France thing happening, ever. And as far as Korea goes, we've been there before. Look right before Vietnam. It was called the Korean War. We fought there, and it was hell, but South Korea is still a free nation. We fought to defend them from invasion from the North, and we succeeded. Where's the problem there? Marines will also fight to the last man. This is where our different nicknames come from. Marines strike fear into opposing fighters. There was a quote from an Iraqi fighter who was captured by some Marines. He said, through an interpreter, that the Americans were a terrifying thing, everywhere they went they brought death. He was referring to the Marines who had just come through their former hideout. It was a safe place that was listed as a no go zone. We have the resources to carry this war. Its a matter of utilizing them. And to those who will say but look at all the dead soldiers! War is bloody. WWII cost some 58,000 deaths a year. And remember Bosnia and Serbia. Clinton took us over there to both to defend them against tyrranny. no one seemed to complain then. People need to open their eyes and quit bashing Bush to bash him. If you don't like what he does look at past presidents who've done the same and ask why didn't I complain then? And the whole oil deal is old and dumb, quit bringing that up. There is no evidence of that. Gas is expensive as ever. I'm done for now...

 

[Darky]

Sorry, just read the posts that came in while I was typing. The UN is a joke. They have no real power anymore because too many coutries will disagree on everything. Clinton was working the whole UN angle for damn near 8 yrs while in office and nothing came of it. Saddam would say ok, bring in the inspectors, and as soon as the pressure was off, he'd kick them out. This happened repeatedly. I'd bypass the UN too if in that situation. And Clinton went around the UN and attacked Bosnia and Serbia without UN consent. No one made a fuss then. But now Bush did it and everyone calls him all kinds of names.

 

[jrsxj98]

If you watch the debates last night you would have seen your precious Bush, quivering like a little school girl getting scolded.

 

[XJJPR]

If you watch the debates last night you would have seen your precious Bush, quivering like a little school girl getting scolded.

Is was sure glad kerry took a shower and washed some of that copper tone spray tan in a can off! :wierd:

hinkley

 

[steve01XJ]

Let's see, I'm voting for Kerry. "Why?!" some of you may ask. To me, very simple.

Iraq - didn't need to go there, the world is MORE dangerous because of our intervention, cost us over 1000 lives and counting, cost us over $200 billion and counting, no exit strategy, no political solution, no oil flowing from Iraq, Halliburton gets no bid contracts, world hates us.

Economy - net loss of over 900,000 jobs since Bush took office, insignificantly lower federal taxes for most Americans, higher state and local taxes for all Americans, less services, 40 million uninsured for health, most jobs "created" in the last three and a half years do not pay even 60% of what the jobs lost paid, exporting jobs overseas (with government incentives), no energy policy to reduce dependence on foreign oil - domestic drilling is not a long-term solution. Did it occur to anyone that an alternative source for oil could allow us to be independent of the Middle East for energy?

Terrorism - Osama Bin "Forgotten" in favor of flag-waving over Saddam. There is and was NEVER any link between the two but we were sold a bill of goods to justify invasion. End result has been greater number of potential terrorist threats than existed before 9/11 and a loss of intenational co-operation in our efforts. America looks bad these days.

Education - "No child left behind" legislation merely creates unfunded mandates (picked up by your local school district via increased property taxes) which make teachers teach to test performance rather than actually teaching kids to think.

Health Care - can be helped with improved employment so many more can get group coverage. Prescription drug law passed only to fatten pockets of drug companies. Most seniors who need medicines to stay alive will pay more out of pocket than before. How about allowing for foreign imports to lower prices and create competition?

Tax code - benefits existing wealth and does not reward work. Nothing has "trickled down" to the workers. The only reward the average american gets for earning more money is paying more taxes. How about his one? Did you know that FICA taxes for social security stop at around the first $70,000 in earnings? That means that for everyone making more than that, all of the money they make beyond the $70,000 or so is NOT subject to FICA tax?! Middle class is discriminated against in this tax, It should be extended to no matter how much you make to relieve some of the burden from average taxpayers. The american economy only gets moving when AVERAGE PEOPLE HAVE DISPOSABLE INCOME to spend.

Oh well, enough. Please notice I did not even get into personal attacks when forming m opinion - it is unecessary. Just ask yourself this simple question: "Are you better off than you were four years ago?" I bet enough people aren't .

 

[Osprey413]

Ok.
Ramsey: Yes, it is a good thing that Sadam is out of power. I know he was an evil man. BUT, we didn't have to kill civilians or the people who were forced to fight for him. I personally think that the US should start assasinating people. I know alot of people won't like that, but atleast you are only killing one instead of 100. If Bush had said (from the beginning) that the reason we were going into Iraq was because we were going to remove Sadam from power then I wouldn't be so angry. But if I remember correctly Bush's biggest reason for going into Iraq was because they apparently had invisable weapons of mass destruction that only Bush could see.

Kejtar, if you read my other earlier post I said that I don't support Bush OR Kerry. I don't like either of them. Yes, the UN did fail. I know that, which is why I listed the other possibilities. If we could get the UN to take some sort of military action to remove the anti-aircraft weapons, etc. But the US just said "F the world, we're going to do whatever we want!". Also, I know why France was opposed to the war. And just imagine what will happen when Bush takes us into Iran (which he will if he gets re-elected). France and Iran have been in bed together forever. France may even declare war on us if we did that.

BlackSport96: Why didn't I complain then? Becuase our president told us why we were going in, and we did just that. But Bush LIED! Don't you understand? We had no proof that Iraq had any weapons, but that was our reason for going in. Later on, probably when Bush discovered that his bluff fell through, then we were told that we were going in to take Sadam out of power. Does anyone remember when Bush was running for office four years ago? One of the things he said was the he was against nation building. Now, can you explain to me how our action in Iraq isn't nation building?

I have a question to ask to all the Bush OR Kerry supporters. Why are you voting for them? Almost every person I talk to is voting for Bush because "He's cool!", or sometimes I get "Well he's from Texas!". I have yet to hear a good reason from anyone why they will be voting for Bush or Kerry. Please, someone... Give me a good reason to vote for Bush or Kerry.

 

[Osprey413]

Just read Steve01XJ's post. So I've got some good reasons to vote for Kerry. How about you Bush supporters, why should I vote for him?

 

[Ramsey]

"We have the resources to carry this war. Its a matter of utilizing them."

i really hope that whoever the next president is will do this, the US needs to become ruthless when dealing with these kinds of situations. and personally i think bush would be the man to do it, before kerry at least. america is a powerful nation, lets strike fear into these people instead of sitting back while they mock us. if we started takign our prisoners from iraq and started beheading them, things might would change. sure a lot of people would htink we were awful, but eye for an eye tooth for a tooth is what is needed badly.

 

[Kejtar]

Economy - net loss of over 900,000 jobs since Bush took office

Let me pick on that one a bit... how many you think are directly related to Bush taking office and how many are a fallout from the previous administration? Things are not as simple to say that from this date on it's Bush's administration fault.

 

[steve01XJ]

Let me pick on that one a bit... how many you think are directly related to Bush taking office and how many are a fallout from the previous administration? Things are not as simple to say that from this date on it's Bush's administration fault.

I may even agree with that to some extent - tech bubble and all, however, what positive actions has Bush taken which have resulted directly in the growth of good paying jobs in the US? The answer is unfortunately none, because the tax cuts did not create investment in new businesses or jobs. Replacing a high tech job with stock boy at Wal-Mart and a part time job delivering pizzas does not count as job growth.

 

[Osprey413]

But the economy was better than it had been for years when Clinton was president, but this is really irrelevant. We can't change the past.

If we use all of our military might to kill all the people who might threaten us, how are we diffirent from Sadam and every other tyrant in history? We can't just go around tactically nuking everyone who badmouths the US.

 

[Kejtar]

If we use all of our military might to kill all the people who might threaten us, how are we diffirent from Sadam and every other tyrant in history?

Every time I hear this and similar statements I keep remembering how WWII came about. It was due to fear of war and decision not to do anything while a despot ruled and tested his boundaries on many fronts. Only when it was too late teh big powers chose to act with really big losses both in human lifes and in $$.

 

[steve01XJ]

Every time I hear this and similar statements I keep remembering how WWII came about. It was due to fear of war and decision not to do anything while a despot ruled and tested his boundaries on many fronts. Only when it was too late teh big powers chose to act with really big losses both in human lifes and in $$.

Where were we in Rwanda...... LOTS more people killed there - like millions more.
Your argument presumes that Hussein presented a clear and present danger to the US. Unfortunately, he didn't and now we are in the quicksand.

 

[Ramsey]

But the economy was better than it had been for years when Clinton was president, but this is really irrelevant. We can't change the past.

If we use all of our military might to kill all the people who might threaten us, how are we diffirent from Sadam and every other tyrant in history? We can't just go around tactically nuking everyone who badmouths the US.

i wasnt implying nuclear weapons, thats a big no no. if that happens, kiss the world goodbye. we do need to become less worried about what people might think

 

[Osprey413]

I think we took not caring what other people think to an extreme when we went into Iraq. No one supported that, but we still did it. Later we found out that they were right...

 

[Kejtar]

Where were we in Rwanda...... LOTS more people killed there - like millions more.

I believe US is supposed to help out with Sudan situation (haven't kept up on the news but that's the last I remember reading)

Your argument presumes that Hussein presented a clear and present danger to the US. Unfortunately, he didn't and now we are in the quicksand.

well he was at the very least an indirect threat. Weapons of MD aside there were a lot more aspects to the reasons why the action needed to be taken. UNfortunately it seems that people concentrate only on the WMD as that's an easy point of attack....

 

[Kejtar]

I think we took not caring what other people think to an extreme when we went into Iraq. No one supported that, but we still did it. Later we found out that they were right...

Umm I believe there were a good half a dozen countries that supported US. There are still quite a few that have troops there alongside americans (granted not as many but still).

 

[Osprey413]

Who? I don't remember anyone supporting us except for Blair, and he got alot of flak from the British people.

 

[steve01XJ]

well he was at the very least an indirect threat. Weapons of MD aside there were a lot more aspects to the reasons why the action needed to be taken. UNfortunately it seems that people concentrate only on the WMD as that's an easy point of attack....[/QUOTE]

Kejtar - I'm not focusing on WMD at all - I am focusing what clear and present danger did Hussein present to the US to justify our invasion and occupation? This is the only standard which we should evaluate military intervention by. Absent WMD, there was no threat to the US at all.

Israel gives the UN the high hat all the time and yet we do not invade them. In Rwanda, like two million people were slaughtered and we did nothing. The lack of principled consistency in our foreign policy is something I am ashamed of.