White Washing Racism?

[8Mud]

Nothing matters beyond are they paying taxes? If you are earning income and not reporting a gross income to the IRS (whether you actually have a taxable income or not) then you are illegal no matter your citizenship or visa status. If you are employing workers you are not reporting properly, then you are illegal. Get them registered and collect the taxes due. Beyond that I don't really care where their citizenship lies.

If it was only that simple. The illigals are paying taxes, sales tax, this tax that tax and other taxes. Probably what they are not paying is income tax maybe, social security maybe and maybe some car taxes etc. Some may be paying some taxes as withholding, but when it comes time to get a tax return they don't qualify. Or when it comes time to retire, they don't qualify for social security.
I'm not sure of the agreements between Mexico and the US. But being familiar with some of the agreements between Germany and the US, I can tell you they suck and change all the time (it's a shell game only the governement can win, some governement any governement). If you let them get away with it, you'd be paying taxes to both countires and if you were lucky, you'd be lucky to receive about 37% of your income. Figuring around $50,000 a year, vou'd be receiving around $18,500. You'd be better off getting a job that paid less than $25,000 a year (under the poverty level), you'd keep more.
Germany is likely typical, a job that pays less than $400 a month is tax free and will probably take about 40 hours a month. A typical entry level Job pays around $800 a month and takes 160 hours and half your pay goes to taxes. When it comes to collecting benenfits from the governement, you'd probably find it easier to pull teeth without novacain. You do the math.
My personal oppinon, anybody that willingly pays more taxes than they have to, is mentaly deficient. If you hve enough free time to research and play the system, you likely don't have time to get any work done anyway. And are likely a semi professional government dependant.
If you increased the tax base by 3.5%, the cost of many items would probably go up double that or more.
And seriously speaking if all 11,000 illegals gave there whole pay check to taxes, each individual tax payer, would probably be a few cents richer every year.
If you want them to be taxed like residents, you have to provide equal benenfits. No doubt the government will say, since you are a guest worker you have the right to pay but not to collect on many benenfits. Neather fish nor foul. When it comes time to retire, whatever social sytem Mexico has will probably say, as you worked in the US you aren't eligable and in the US they will say since you aren't a residient, you have no right to retiement. Don't kid yourself it goes on all the time.
You have the right to pay, but not the right to collect.
Get them guest worker cards and tax cards and enforce it, but be prepared for it to cost more than it saves. If they are going to pay equal taxes, they should have equal benenfits. And actually a vote, if I rmemeber right "No taxation without representation" has a familiar ring to it.
Simple math, the percentage of what they are missing in taxes is probably about 18% of there income. There income is often more than 18% lower than the average workers. So we either squeeze them till they give up and go home, or pay them living wages. If they give up and go home, who is gonna pick the Strawberries and what are you willing to pay for Strawberries?

 

[Bent]

Another article.

I'd be wiiling to bet that this thread may never fade away.

atriot:

 

[BrettM]

If you think I'm 'illegal' because I'm a Mexican[,] learn the true history because I'm in my HOMELAND.

I thought Mexicans are primarily of european decent, not native americans/indians... WTF?

 

[8Mud]

I thought Mexicans are primarily of european decent, not native americans/indians... WTF?

I guess what could be called true Europeans and pure Native American and everything in between. Much of it is culture and actually changes from province to province, noticeably. Much like being an American, they share a government and a currency, but aren't actually homogenious by any stretch of the imagination. You can go from one province to the other and the differneces are as profound as the deep south and Arizona. About as much in common as B.C. and Quebec.

 

[5-90]

Current Mexicans are the result of interbreeding between the Aztec/Maya/Toltec and the Spanish conquistadores. The truly "Native American" Mexican is probably just about as rare as the "Native American" (and probably came over on the Bering Land Bridge anyhow.)

I've siad it before and I'll say it again - either present a border that will withstand efforts to cross illegally and penalties for managing to do so anyhow, or just annex Mexico and make it all one large country, and bring the Mexican labour standards, safety standards, and pay standards on a par with America. What we're doing isn't working - so why do we keep doing it?

As far as the "minimum wage" argument goes - that is material for another discussion entirely. However, if we were to eliminate the Federal minimum wage and assorted state minimum wages, and, say, declare a "tax holiday" for a year or so, we'd see revitalisation of the economy. Reduce government spending such that taxes could be lower after the Holiday, and you'd see the dollar go farther - effectively being revalued. Couple that with a return to the specie standard, and the value of the dollar would again have an anchor to keep it from drifting like it has for the last seventy-odd years. The principal problem with our economy is that the value of the dollar is based upon the "Full faith and credit" of a nation that is now several trillion dollars in debt, and experiences a significant trade deficit with the Western Pacific Rim every year.

5-90

 

[XJ Dreamin']

If it was only that simple. The illigals are paying taxes, sales tax, this tax that tax and other taxes. Probably what they are not paying is income tax maybe, social security maybe and maybe some car taxes etc. Some may be paying some taxes as withholding, but when it comes time to get a tax return they don't qualify. Or when it comes time to retire, they don't qualify for social security.

Sales tax don't mean squat. In Texas, the base sales tax is 8.75% and the state is still broke. They cut their parks free to fend for themselves and are selling off forest land to raise funds for schools. I don't know why they won't implement an income tax. Their reasoning is beyond me.

I'm not sure of the agreements between Mexico and the US. But being familiar with some of the agreements between Germany and the US, I can tell you they suck and change all the time (it's a shell game only the governement can win, some governement any governement). If you let them get away with it, you'd be paying taxes to both countires and if you were lucky, you'd be lucky to receive about 37% of your income. Figuring around $50,000 a year, vou'd be receiving around $18,500. You'd be better off getting a job that paid less than $25,000 a year (under the poverty level), you'd keep more.

I don't see illegal workers (or their employers) worrying much about international agreements. As long as they are illegal they don't have to.

Germany is likely typical, a job that pays less than $400 a month is tax free and will probably take about 40 hours a month. A typical entry level Job pays around $800 a month and takes 160 hours and half your pay goes to taxes. When it comes to collecting benenfits from the governement, you'd probably find it easier to pull teeth without novacain. You do the math.

I'm not sure where this is going. My effective tax rate for 2005 is 5.38% and I don't have any trouble collecting benefits due me. Can't get much cheaper than that.

My personal oppinon, anybody that willingly pays more taxes than they have to, is mentaly deficient. If you hve enough free time to research and play the system, you likely don't have time to get any work done anyway. And are likely a semi professional government dependant.

Do I want to pay more taxes? I vote, but I still don't have much control over that. I wouldn't have to pay more taxes if everybody ponied up (and I mean everybody - not just the subjects of this discussion).

If you increased the tax base by 3.5%, the cost of many items would probably go up double that or more.

If they were paying their share and not mooching their education and medical care some other costs might go down. As you say: its not simple.

And seriously speaking if all 11,000 illegals gave there whole pay check to taxes, each individual tax payer, would probably be a few cents richer every year.

huh?

If you want them to be taxed like residents, you have to provide equal benenfits.

If they are paying their share they can have all the benefits they are getting now, except they would be paying for them instead of me paying for it.

No doubt the government will say, since you are a guest worker you have the right to pay but not to collect on many benenfits. Neather fish nor foul. When it comes time to retire, whatever social sytem Mexico has will probably say, as you worked in the US you aren't eligable and in the US they will say since you aren't a residient, you have no right to retiement. Don't kid yourself it goes on all the time. You have the right to pay, but not the right to collect.

Back to their being illegal. As long as they are, they don't have to worry about government policy. I mean, I get it that all they want to do is send some money home to the folks. That's fine. What they do with their share is their business, but as long as they are here drawing benefits of living here, then part of that money needs to stay here.

Get them guest worker cards and tax cards and enforce it, but be prepared for it to cost more than it saves.

If collecting taxes costs more than the revenue collected, how has taxation been so popular all these years?

If they are going to pay equal taxes, they should have equal benenfits. And actually a vote, if I rmemeber right "No taxation without representation" has a familiar ring to it.

No, no, no. If you want to vote, get naturalized. The colonists were British citizens, not illegal aliens or guest workers. They were natural citizens being taxed without recourse. A documented worker would be as any other visa holder. No visa grants the right to vote. You got to earn that. It's not a right anyway. It's a privilage granted at age 18 that can be revoked for a number of reasons. But, first you got to be a natural citizen.

Simple math, the percentage of what they are missing in taxes is probably about 18% of there income. There income is often more than 18% lower than the average workers. So we either squeeze them till they give up and go home, or pay them living wages. If they give up and go home, who is gonna pick the Strawberries and what are you willing to pay for Strawberries?

Hell, strawberries are too expensive now! In all likelyhood some undocumented workers, if they filed, would have no taxable income. So do many natural citizens. That's neither here nor there. Close a few business/investors' loopholes and you could collect the same amount easily, except that the businesses would relocate and the investors would hide their income off shore. Again, as you say - it's not simple. However, the basic principle survives. If you have a taxable income, pay you taxes!

 

[XJ Dreamin']

I thought Mexicans are primarily of european decent, not native americans/indians... WTF?

Yeah, that's funny. A survey of Tejanos (native born Texans of Hispanic culture) a while back found that Tejanos were as concerned about undocumented Mexicanos as "other Texans" were. Just goes to prove - Texan First! Hispanic second.

I'll see if I can find it on the web - I heard it on the radio.

And anyway - Any government dumb enough to invite Americans as colonists deserves to get their territory stolen. No offense, but come on! You gonna trust an American with your territory?! I don't think so.

 

[8Mud]

I feel like I've been sliced, diced and dismembered. You'll have to excuse my typo's, but it's early in the mornig here and I just got off of work. And my computer crashes every time I try to use my spell checker?
Taxes aren't going to solve the problems, if every undocumented worker chipped in $1000, the government could buy maybe 45 new attack aircraft (I think they have something like 800 now), maybe 10 new B-1 bombers or a part of an aircraft carrier. If they chipped in $2000 dollars, they could likely pay the wages of the pilots, support personnel and the upkeep (maybe).
Deficite spending is what pays for most everything. Income taxes are a small part of the whole process. The dollar the governemnt collects today, is worth more than the dollar they print tomorrow. They always spend more than they take in, if they had a windfall of taxes from Mexican workers, they'd spend that and probably borrow against future taxes.
Document the illegals, get them on the tax rolls, make it easy so they will comply. Encourage them to own property, property taxes are what pays for most of the schools anyway and much of the infastructure.
I didn't say give then the vote, I said if they are taxed they should have representation. Immigrant guest worked council or something.
They make money, they spend, they pay taxes (most money is taxed multiple times anyway), they are a part of the economy. If they were documented, they could be made to pay a larger share. But if they are making below subsistance level wages, the whole process is a downword spiral. An old saying, you can't get blood out of a turnip, no matter how hard you squeeze it.
The illegal alien thing is nothing new, it pops up every so often and becomes the cause of the day, it's been going on for most of the last century. Nobody has found a solution yet. Regen had an idea, prop up the Meyican economy, so they want to stay home. I don't really know where that went, it just kind of evaporated.
I got to laugh at some of the suggestions, like buiilding a multi billion dollar 10 foot high fence, 2000 miles long. Some chincano with a pile of scrap wood and a dollars worth of nails, is gonna build a 12 foot ladder.
On the pratical side, I patroled the iron curtain. Take my word for it, it was very porous. Fences. land mines, watch towers and I often didn't know which side of the border I was on, no chit.
What is going on now, really reminds me of Nazi Germany in 1938. If we get everybody together and give them someone to hate, we can control them and it's likely they won't notice the real problems.

 

[RichP]

This is the stuff that pisses me off.

In Los Angeles County, the 29,000-person town of Maywood has fashioned itself as a sanctuary for immigrants. The city is 96 percent Hispanic, and 70 percent of its residents are not citizens, said Mayor Pro Tem Felipe Aguirre.

Officials recently disbanded a traffic control unit because it was perceived as a threat to illegal immigrants without driver's licenses, Police Chief Bruce Leflar said.

And three years ago, he said, the city ended its traffic checkpoints for driver's licenses, registration, insurance and drunken driving because they were catching a large number of illegal immigrants.

It's an american tradition to subvert laws, RICO for the old organized crime has been subverted nicely for other uses, the 'war on drugs' has been subverted nicely to allow confiscation of property by even Fish and Game depts, why should illegal immigrants be immune from subverted laws...

 

[8Mud]

Just a couple of things that aren't really relavent, but the parrallels are interesting. Mostly speaking about the So. Cal and Arizona areas.
I grew up in Cal. right at the beginning of the end for the Californio's. The westword migration of the Easterners to the West Coast paradise was in full swing. My mother was like fourth genenration Californian, Sicilian and Yaqui, almost mexican, but you'd never know it (sometimes there is no telling how the genes will fall), she was fair, green eyes and had Auburn hair. She also tanned really quick and hardly ever burned.
Things changed in So. Cal. people bought property on the beach, got "No Parking" signs put up in front of there houses. Closed and locked the walkways between the houses and figured they owned the 100 (150) yards of beach and probably the ocean all the way to Japan. A million people crammed into a couple of miles of (organized) beach and many many miles of beach mostly deserted, except by the ocean front home owners. Pretty much the same thing with the canyons. The home grown Cops became fewer and fewer. Most of the Police were Eastern (US) immigrants. All sorts of laws started popping up, enforcement became mostly a class thing. If you looked rich you were ignored. Property taxes, went through the roof. Zoning scams and all sorts of real estate scams were in the works.
L.A. turned into a fairly close clone of Philidelphia. The rich and the middle class ate and partied at different places. It didn't used to be that way, class distinctions in 50's California were really relaxed. I had many excounters with some serious money and the powers that were, were almost universally benevilant and understanding. There are (were) things going on in the So. Cal area that most people didn't even notice or see, Beverly Hills is actually the middle class and middle management. People rarley ventured out of the city limits and when they did, it was to some kind of organized goal.
The roads to serious money, weren't marked and looked like well kept farm service roads. The old lady that owned most of Malibu (she leased much of it, rarley sold) lived in a modest house on a hill a mile or so from the beach. I knew her type, she probably liked Mexicans, her family actually kept a whole tribe of Channel Island Indians as wards.
I honestly kind of gloat, when I hear about the immigration pressures from the south and predicted it many, many years ago. It's simple math, the Mexicans are outbreeding the natives. Maybe after the Mexicans take over, I'll go back for a visit. Maybe there is some justice after all.
I'll volunteer to tear down as many "No Stopping" signs at the beach and in the canyons, that I can.
Maybe after the Mexicans, push the other immigrants out, they can take there "No Parking" signs with them. But it's likely, the "No Parking" signs will be replaced with "No Parquear". Won't bother me a bit.

 

[Tom in KY]

When an illegal makes it into Kentucky, if he has kids with him, they qualify for assistance. Their kids are put in school. Their health care is covered. They are provided housing. They are offered assistance in finding a job. They are offered assistance in getting their green card and their legal status. They are assigned a case worker. If they get in trouble, they are provided with an attorney. Then the family becomes a hardship case and gets even more assistance. Meanwhile, they don't have a soc.sec.#, they don't pay taxes, they don't have to register for the draft. AND to cap all of that off, they don't know when/if they will be returned to Mexico.

Am I racist? No, I believe that contributing legal immigrant workers are actually good for the local economy. They spend just as much money as whites or any other group when payday comes. They rent housing and sometimes buy properties. They do nice work in the trades and labour classification. Some are white collar, no complaints on them. But an illegal is a drain on the economy that has to support them when they do not contribute.

The problem is, as Wal-Mart found out a while back. I had a brick and block masonry crew working for me a couple of years ago. All Mexicans, some legal, some not, they swapped guys around so much that I couldn't keep up with who was who. Crew leaders were always the same, but they had a different crew every time I used them. I'd ask about the guys that were with them before. I never got a straight answer. They know what's going on and they'll protect their friends. I had to quit using them. I was afraid that it was all going to blow up on the company I was working for. If an illegal gets hurt on one of my jobs, and they leave him behind, Who becomes liable for this human being? What about his family?

Tom in KY, something needs to be done.

 

[8Mud]

All I here is taxes, taxes, taxes. Make a list of the taxes they don't pay. Income tax, Social security. They are likely renting, so somebody is paying property tax, the everyday taxes they pay just like everybody else. And a side nobody seems to want to address, is where does all the money go for Social security and withholding, that's on phony SS numbers or the withholding for Federal Tax that is never claimed. The company is responsible for workmans comp. and unemployment. And should be responsible for Health insurance, at the very least for, on the job, accident insurance. Likely if they were paid a couple of more dollars an hour, they wouldn't qualify for food stamps or assitance anyway.
Some kind of parrallel system seems to be the only answer. Tax Cards, identitiy cards, residenancy registration and set up to be solid and easy. Get them in a system, maybe not the same system as a born American, but a system. But chances are any system they eventually do set up, is gonna be skewed to benenfit somebody besides the guest workers.
The other side, kind of hinted at in the last post, is what about the illegals with children born in the US. I can't really think of a quicker way to make a lifelong enemy, than splitting up a family.
IMO if the illegals are constantly antagonized, eventually the worm will turn. Doesn't America have enough enemies, without growing a whole new batch that live right next door? if people keep peeing on the Mexicans, eventually they will generate enough hate to grow a whole new terrorist threat. There are politicians that like nothing better than a dissatisfied group to encite and lead. Hate is a great unifier.
Look at what is going on with Chavez and Venezula, do you want that to grow into a real problem. They just nationalized 20%, of the US's oil consumption. If I'm not mistaken, Mexico is the US's major supplier (or nearly).
I still say the whole, illegal immigrant thing is a political ploy. It's an election year.
The last I heard nearly forty percent of Americans have no health insurance. My math says around 120 Million, are the 11 million illegals really going to make that much of a difference on the health system. Blaming 3.5% of the population for 40% of the fiscal problems, seems kind of CS to me.
How do you say Jihad in Mexican?

 

[Bent]

All I here is taxes, taxes, taxes.

What about our sovereignty? What about the law?What about the slavery? What about the deaths? What about the money sent out of the US, not returned to the economy? The closure of hospitals, especially in areas where the closures have a direct affect on American Citizens? Why do foreigners have the luxury of selectively obeying the law and citizens don't? What about those who return to their native country to escape child support? What about all the smoke being blown up our butt by those who would have us believe everything is ok? What about the fact that this is our funkcig country, our funkcig border, our funkcig laws? If it's such a great idea, why don't the funkcig bleeding hearts take their place in wherever the illegals came from?

 

[flexjay87]

some of you guys are missing the overall point. as of now, our country has a rule of law that is being broken by illegals coming across the borders,simple as that. doesn't matter what they look like, or where they are from, they need to follow the rules on how to live here. much of the new fervor about this was brought on by, can anyone guess, anyone, Bueller, Bueller, can you say 911, you know, lunatics flew jets into the twin towers!! besides that, many people who come to this country now do not want to become AMERICANS. used to be people would cross the big pond, assimilate to the english language, get educated about our countrys history, get a job and live happily ever after. now many dickheads just want a free ride or want to shove their foreign crap down our throats, and to hell with our history. screw them, i'm english/ irish ancestry, but i don't run around, wanting a king, or sayin i wish we had more fish and chips, instead of burger and fries. those who think our country is screwed up because of who we are, stay overseas, or leave now, heck you don't wanna live here, it's much better everywhere else, right?

 

[8Mud]

I don't even think there is a word in Mexican for Jihad. Secure the borders? Good luck. Why not stop all tourism? Get serious. Hey I've got an idea, dig a fox hole, climb in and pull a cover over the top, protect yourself against anybody that isn't just like you. Pass a law agianst opening the cover.
Things are changing and there is really nothing you can do about it. If the climate changes that have been happening, aren't just part of a short cycle, things are going to get worse before they get better, no matter what the law says. Many of the people that settled in America were displaced by the potato blite in Irland. Lets pass a law agianst potato blite.
Why is it your country, because you took it from somebody else? Or you were lucky enough to be born 130 miles farther north than somebody else?
When you flush the toilet, you are likely using the fruits of somebodies else's labor. What the heck gives you the right to demand preferential treatment.
It's your right by birth? You were born superior, you are a member of the master race? Your skin is lighter, your ancestors migrated from northern Europe instead of southern Europe.
They are likely outbreeding you 3 or 4 to one.
Your sovereignty, has about as much relavance as the lock on your front door. It just depends on how determined the person is wanting to come through it.
Make an accomodation or fight, herd, exclude, chastise whatever you think will work (nuke Mexico?). Doubt it will change anything. The only real chance you have is to nudge the whole process, a little, in a direction of your choice, I really doubt anybody can stop it (for long).
Whomever is making the laws, invariably makes them to benenfit themselves. It's the law, has a really hollow ring to it.
Northern Europeans (mostly) came westword in Ameica about 150 years ago and upset the Status Quo. There was another big migration shortly after WW II, that changed it yet again. Now many of the inhabitants are getting upset, because it is happening to them. Adapt, fight, move or be run over, maybe a few other options even more distastfull. Most anything else I can think of, is a stop gap measure, that probably won't change anything and may cause more friction, than it solves problems.