What track width for Hybrid 44/60?

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Ok, I'm doing all sorts of measuring on different parts for my Dana 44/60 hybrid axle and need to have a target track width to work from. My current XJ is sitting at around 7" of lift with the custom D44 front end sitting at 59.5" track width running 35" MTR's on 7" rims. I was planning to shoot for a 60" track width using H2 rims (17x8.5 with 5" backspacing) with a projected tire size of 37x12.5 up to perhaps 40x13.5 on an MJ with around 7" of lift probably. I am thinking that if I beadlock the H2's someday, that will increase the track width a bit or if I switch to a conventional rim, that will also most likely increase the track width. So if I build the axle for a 60" Track Width with the H2 rims, that will be the narrowest it will ever likely be and using any other rim will most likely increase it's width. Thoughts, suggestions? Jeff

By the way, if using these constraints, it looks like I'll be cutting my axle tubes off 7/8" shorter than the D44 I built a few years ago. Jeff

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Just a little more information. Since the H2 rims are 8.5" wide by measurement and the backspacing is 5" by measurement, I calculate that the wms is offset 3/4" from center. Therefore, with a 60" track width using these rims, it can be calculated that the wms to wms of the axle would be 61.5".

Also, I did some more measuring and determined that the stock '89 F350 short side shaft would be 1.5" too long. It has 2" of splined length, so if I just cut it off, I would have 1/2" of spline remaining. The trouble is that I don't think new splines can be cut into the stock shaft adjacent to the existing splines because the shaft diameter is too small in this region. If someone had the ability to roll more splines (like the stock ones are created), then it could perhaps have the splines extended. Other options are a custom shaft or adjusting the axle build to use a stock short side shaft. That would push the pinion towards the exhaust manifold 1.5" or perhaps less if I widened the axle just a bit. I am basing the pinion position off my current D44 using a late model Waggy long shaft and early model Waggy short shaft. Many thoughts. Jeff

 

[CRASH]

With the H-2's I would shoot for 63-64" WMS. With fodies', you are going to want to be a bit wider, and the H-2's are 1.5" in-board of a stock backspace aftermarket wheel (3.5" is the industry standard for 5 or 6 on 5.5").

 

[Paul S]

With the H-2's I would shoot for 63-64" WMS. With fodies', you are going to want to be a bit wider, and the H-2's are 1.5" in-board of a stock backspace aftermarket wheel (3.5" is the industry standard for 5 or 6 on 5.5").

Exactely what I was gonna say.

From everyone that I've talked to the narrowest you can make a 60 with stock coils is 63", some say 64". This should also work out perfectly to clear your LCA's & what not with 40D's & zero offset wheels.

Paul

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

With the H-2's I would shoot for 63-64" WMS. With fodies', you are going to want to be a bit wider, and the H-2's are 1.5" in-board of a stock backspace aftermarket wheel (3.5" is the industry standard for 5 or 6 on 5.5").

What's the "industry standard" backspace for 8 on 6.5 which is what this will be? Same 3.5" as 5 or 6 on 6.5? What is an industry standard track width for crawling and general trail running out west? I know you guys shun full width. Jeff

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Exactely what I was gonna say.

From everyone that I've talked to the narrowest you can make a 60 with stock coils is 63", some say 64". This should also work out perfectly to clear your LCA's & what not with 40D's & zero offset wheels.

Paul

Keep in mind that this will not be a 60. The smaller center section of the D44 makes a bit of a difference when it comes to room between the inner C and the pumpkin. The way I've figured it above for a track width of 60", I've got 5 1/8" of tube extending from the housing on the short side. The inner C will cover an inch and a half or so. I think I'm going to use coilovers, but even if I were to use regular coils, if I raise them off the tube a bit like I've got on my 44, it looks like they can overlay the inner C a fair amount. So all I'm saying is that the dimensions layed out above seem like they would work. Perhaps a 60" track width on 37's to 40's is too narrow though. I don't know. What are others running and do they like it? I enjoy driving in tight spaces, crawling, and finesse over a big, wide, and hammer down driving style. Jeff

 

[CRASH]

What's the "industry standard" backspace for 8 on 6.5 which is what this will be? Same 3.5" as 5 or 6 on 6.5? What is an industry standard track width for crawling and general trail running out west? I know you guys shun full width. Jeff

An aftermarket 8 lug 16.5x9.75 wheel has 4.25" of BS.

I run H-2's on my Ford tow rig, and I rub the leaf springs on hard turns.
36.5" spring centers. That's why they run a 4.25" BS, as 35's will rub the springs on a Ford with any less.

I have had very good luck on our trails with a 60.5" wide axle, 15x9" wheels with 3.75" BS. That equates to 73.5"-74" outside of tire to outside of tire. that's on 35's. With 40's, I'd want to be a touch wider, but to match my setup, you'd need to be at least 63" with 5" of BS. I'd say 64" would be lovely.

 

[my2wdsucks]

where the hell is butternut? near milwaukee or something

 

[Paul S]

Keep in mind that this will not be a 60. The smaller center section of the D44 makes a bit of a difference when it comes to room between the inner C and the pumpkin. The way I've figured it above for a track width of 60", I've got 5 1/8" of tube extending from the housing on the short side. The inner C will cover an inch and a half or so. I think I'm going to use coilovers, but even if I were to use regular coils, if I raise them off the tube a bit like I've got on my 44, it looks like they can overlay the inner C a fair amount. So all I'm saying is that the dimensions layed out above seem like they would work. Perhaps a 60" track width on 37's to 40's is too narrow though. I don't know. What are others running and do they like it? I enjoy driving in tight spaces, crawling, and finesse over a big, wide, and hammer down driving style. Jeff

I don't think the center section is a factor either way, it's all about the inner C's. With a 60 at 60" WMS, your inner C's would probably be about where the middle of your coils want to go. From what I understand, 63" WMS will put your coils right up against the inner C's, & that's with BJ inner C's, kingpins need even more room.
Check with Sean P., I think this is what he ran into & why he was forced to go coilovers.
All West Coasters that I know keep it in the 60" - 64" range. I went from 60" on 35's to 63" on 37's & I'm happy with it. My 37's don't rub my LCA's or coil tower. My wheels are 8" with zero offset.

Paul

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

where the hell is butternut? near milwaukee or something

Way north. 60 miles straight south of Ashland (which is on Lake Superior. ) Jeff

 

[FarmerMatt]

Jeff,
I'm at 64" WM-WM with 5" BSed wheels & am happy. My rear is 61" WM-WM & I used 1.5" spacers. The front end I just got is 61.5 WM-WM & I'm going to use the spacers up front as well. This might be the direction you may want to go. Start off narrow & space to what you need or like (within reason). It's easy to go wider, but narrowing is a different story. Spacers screw up the scrub radius & put more stress on ball joints / king pins, but the flexebility it offers to change up the setup is worth it for me. It also helps suck the hubs into the wheels out of harms way.

Matt

 

[Goatman]

Jeff, I agree that somewhere around 63" would be best. It is the long inner C's that get in the way if it's too narrow. My current setup is 61.5" wide with 3.75" backspacing, and I think it's just right. If I build a hybrid, or a D60, I'll make it 63". If you're using 5" BS rims, you could go to 64" with no trouble. I think you're thinking too narrow.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Jeff, I agree that somewhere around 63" would be best. It is the long inner C's that get in the way if it's too narrow. My current setup is 61.5" wide with 3.75" backspacing, and I think it's just right. If I build a hybrid, or a D60, I'll make it 63". If you're using 5" BS rims, you could go to 64" with no trouble. I think you're thinking too narrow.

Well, that's why I asked NOW. I'm thinking I can set this thing up to use the stock F350 short side shaft as is and only have to shorten the long side shaft some. Jeff

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Jeff,
I'm at 64" WM-WM with 5" BSed wheels & am happy. My rear is 61" WM-WM & I used 1.5" spacers. The front end I just got is 61.5 WM-WM & I'm going to use the spacers up front as well. This might be the direction you may want to go. Start off narrow & space to what you need or like (within reason). It's easy to go wider, but narrowing is a different story. Spacers screw up the scrub radius & put more stress on ball joints / king pins, but the flexebility it offers to change up the setup is worth it for me. It also helps suck the hubs into the wheels out of harms way.

Matt

What's this front end you just got? Jeff

 

[Goatman]

You don't want to know......

 

[FarmerMatt]

You don't want to know......

Hybrid 60-9" that Brett posted in the other thread. It's a 9" housing built upside down to run in a reversed engine / reversed drivetrain moon buggy. After explaining to the guy that a right side up 9" diff wouldn't drop in & that he could only get his asking price from someone who was building a moon buggy he started lowering the price. It got to the point where I felt I couldn't turn it down. It is the F450 knuckle deal with 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern & chevy brakes with drive flanges. The housing is a shaved Currie unit. It came with a full set of yukon allow 35 spline inner & outer shaft with CTM's along with a full set of spares without joints. He also included a chromed PSC Hyd steering ram. I'm going to have to weld up the diff mounting bolts, realign the diff in the housing & drill new holes. Hopefully this will finish off the upgrades for a little while...

Matt

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Alrighty Matt! Ok, now I think I understand the issues with this housing, but exactly how will you be able to realign the diff in the housing to utilize the two sets of alloy axle shafts included in the deal? Do you need to shift the diff side to side some for the axle shafts to align correctly in the diff? The HP44 I've got that I was just measureing on has the same amount of shaft protruding in on the left and right. Isn't a 9" the same? Will you be purchasing a HI9 center section for this or running a standard 9 in a low pinion variety? The need to drill new holes for the center section is because once it is installed right side up, the existing holes are not aligned correctly? Also, in the original ad, the guy said it had two sets of Moser alloy shafts adn Rockcrusher inner C's and Steering Knuckles. Was he full of shit or what? Just curious. Jeff

 

[CRASH]

It's all about the chrome......wait till Fishboy gets a gander at that.

 

[CRASH]

Oh, you're not going to ruin that housing with POS radius arms, are you? URF three link is calling your name.

CRASH

P.S. If you need some weld-on radius arm wedges, I have some from Jes's axle.

 

[FarmerMatt]

Alrighty Matt! Ok, now I think I understand the issues with this housing, but exactly how will you be able to realign the diff in the housing to utilize the two sets of alloy axle shafts included in the deal? Do you need to shift the diff side to side some for the axle shafts to align correctly in the diff? The HP44 I've got that I was just measureing on has the same amount of shaft protruding in on the left and right. Isn't a 9" the same? Will you be purchasing a HI9 center section for this or running a standard 9 in a low pinion variety? The need to drill new holes for the center section is because once it is installed right side up, the existing holes are not aligned correctly? Also, in the original ad, the guy said it had two sets of Moser alloy shafts adn Rockcrusher inner C's and Steering Knuckles. Was he full of shit or what? Just curious. Jeff

The 9" is offset so by flipping it over the inner shaft lengths will change. I'll have to shorten & respline the short side & buy a longer long side. The holes for the 9" diff are not symetric, but "close". Close enough that every hole will have to be welded & redrilled. My plan is to take a junk yard diff that I have, knock the cross pin & spiders out of it & thread an alignment rod through the housing & the diff. I'll need to machine some spacers to align the rod centered in the tubes out by the knuckles. This should hold everything in place & I'll use the junk diff as a hole guide to drill the new holes. I need to do some more measuring though. The housing is really offset to the drivers side as is. The short side inner shaft is only 14.25" long & will get really short when flipping it over. I belive I've got the clearance to run the diff that far offset as I'm going to airshock the front at the same time. I talked to Diamond axle about a housing & he's telling me that if I send him my inner "C's" that he'll do up a housing for $700. I could have him build a housing to accept my existing shafts. This might end up being the cheaper way for me to go as I got 2 sets of axle shafts that fit this housing now. I'd have to buy 2 long side inners along with cutting / resplining 2 short side inners to replace what I've got... :confused1 I tried to research the "rock crusher" knuckle thing with little success. The knuckles are keyed for the high steer arms & Richard was saying that this is how Currie sets them up. The guy said that Mad4x4 built the front end?... I ordered a true hi9 with a detroit & it should actually be here in a day or 2.:shocked:

Matt