What oil after stroker break in?

[xcm]

I'll say it again - after the cam is broken in, you don't need any special additives.

Just because people disagree, doesn't mean you have to repeat yourself...

 

[DieselSJ]

Just because people disagree, doesn't mean you have to repeat yourself...

Actually, you need to say something 3x before people start to remember it.

After the cam is broken in, you don't need any special additives

 

[cal]

I'll say it again - after the cam is broken in, you don't need any special additives.

You can say it all day wrong, you'll still be wrong, and in conflict with top builders and general consensus from the stroker forums.

4K miles and 3rd engine? Yes, I'll take your advice.

Each an upgrade over the prior, running, removed and passed on to the next guy engine. We tend to hold them up over 4K rpm's and run as high as 7K until we stop using the motor, so oil is pretty important to us..

The cam in our racer is about 5 seasons old. This is the 3rd block that it has been in. It has been broken in once. We don't use any special oil. It has spent the majority of its life in the 4000-6000 rpm range. Neither the cam nor lifters are showing any abnormal wear.

What kind of motor?

The stock cam in my XJ has 216K miles on it. I don't use any special additives.

It had plenty of time to break in and season when there was still adequate zinc in off the shelf oil. Start that jeep from new with modern oil and you'll have had different results?

How many 4.0's are in the world with 150K, 200K, 250K and even 300K miles on stock cams? And I'll bet there is a very low, like <1% that adds anything to their oil.

Again see above

Clean oil is the most important thing. Change it on a regular basis.

Finally something based on reality.

 

[DieselSJ]

You can say it all day wrong, you'll still be wrong, and in conflict with top builders and general consensus from the stroker forums.

Because we all know that everyone on internet forums are "experts".

Each an upgrade over the prior, running, removed and passed on to the next guy engine. We tend to hold them up over 4K rpm's and run as high as 7K until we stop using the motor, so oil is pretty important to us..

Your point?

What kind of motor?

4.0. Just like we all have here. And plenty of spring pressure too. Cam is .500+ lift.

It had plenty of time to break in and season when there was still adequate zinc in off the shelf oil.

Thank you for proving my point and agreeing that after the cam is broken in, additional zinc is not necessary.

Start that jeep from new with modern oil and you'll have had different results?

Our race engine has proven that additional zinc after break in is not necessary.

Again see above

Again see above.

Finally something based on reality.

All based on reality.

 

[gradon]

I used the Brad Penn SAE-30 for cam break-in and first 600mi(lil late for the 500), then used their 10w-30 for 50k. I've been using Rotella t-6 for the past 25k. I always use a m-301 filter.

 

[Russ Pottenger]

I'm not talking about the speciality blended oils like Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs.
Why or for what reason wouldn't you add a bottle of the "Happy Juce" to go along with the dinosaur oil that you just picked up from the Napa store regardless if it's for break-in, or it has 100K on the clock?

When I build a Jeep Stroker with stock rods, it gets replacement ARP rod bolts and nuts
although the stock bolts would probably work just fine in 75% of the applications.

Eat hamburgers rather than cheeseburgers and get the additive.

 

[AIbandit]

I run Rotella T in all of my motors. My stroker currently has rotella and break in addative

Here's some data off the interwebs on content. His conclusions were generally disputed so I'll leave that out.

1. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only synthetic = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phos = 3489 ppm
ZDDP= 3000 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

2. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi
zinc = 1669 ppm
phos = 1518 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm
NOTE: Due to its very low TBN value, this oil is only suitable for short term racing use, and is not suitable for street use.

3. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi
zinc = 1472 ppm
phos = 1544 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

4. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi
zinc = 1180 ppm
phos = 1112 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

5. 30 wt Red Line Race Oil synthetic = 96,470 psi
zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm
ZDDP = 2100 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

6. 10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil synthetic = 95,360 psi
zinc = 1431 ppm
phos = 1441 ppm
ZDDP = 1400 ppm

7. 10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL semi-synthetic = 90,226 psi
zinc = 1221 ppm
phos = 955 ppm
ZDDP = 1000 ppm

8. 10W30 Joe Gibbs HR4 Hotrod Oil synthetic = 86,270 psi
zinc = 1247 ppm
phos = 1137 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

9. 15W40 RED LINE Diesel Oil synthetic, API CJ-4/CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CF/CH-4/CF-4/SM/SL/SH/EO-O = 85,663 psi
zinc = 1615 ppm
phos = 1551 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

10. 5W30 Lucas API SM synthetic = 76,584 psi
zinc = 1134 ppm
phos = 666 ppm
ZDDP = 900 ppm

11. 5W50 Castrol Edge with Syntec API SN, synthetic, formerly Castrol Syntec, black bottle = 75,409 psi
zinc = 1252 ppm
phos = 1197 ppm
ZDDP = 1200 ppm

12. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) synthetic = 74,860 psi
zinc = 1421 ppm
phos = 1338 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

13. 5W40 MOBIL 1 TURBO DIESEL TRUCK synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4 and ACEA E7 = 74,312 psi
zinc = 1211 ppm
phos = 1168 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

14. 15W40 CHEVRON DELO 400LE Diesel Oil, conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF-4,CF/SM, = 73,520 psi
zinc = 1519 ppm
phos = 1139 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

15. 15W40 MOBIL DELVAC 1300 SUPER Diesel Oil conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4/SM, SL = 73,300 psi
zinc = 1297 ppm
phos = 1944 ppm
ZDDP = 1600 ppm

16. 15W40 Farm Rated Heavy Duty Performance Diesel, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF/SL, SJ (conventional) = 73,176 psi
zinc = 1325ppm
phos = 1234 ppm
ZDDP = 1200 ppm

17. 15W40 “NEW” SHELL ROTELLA T Diesel Oil conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF-4,CF/SM = 72,022 psi
zinc = 1454 ppm
phos = 1062 ppm
ZDDP = 1200 ppm

18. 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,377 psi
zinc = 1621 ppm
phos = 1437 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

19. 15W40 “OLD” SHELL ROTELLA T Diesel Oil conventional, API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4,CG-4,CF-4,CF,SL, SJ, SH = 71,214 psi
zinc = 1171 ppm
phos = 1186 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

20. 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,206 psi
zinc = 1557 ppm
phos = 1651 ppm
ZDDP = 1600 ppm

21. 15W50 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic = 70,235 psi
zinc = 1133 ppm
phos = 1,168 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

22. 30wt Edelbrock Break-In Oil conventional = 69,160 psi
zinc = 1545 ppm
phos = 1465 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

23. 10W40 Edelbrock synthetic = 68,603 psi
zinc = 1193 ppm
phos = 1146 ppm
ZDDP = 100 ppm

24. 15W40 LUCAS MAGNUM Diesel Oil, conventional, API CI-4,CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF/SL = 66,476 psi
zinc = 1441 ppm
phos = 1234 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

25. 10W30 Royal Purple HPS (High Performance Street) synthetic = 66,211 psi
zinc = 1774 ppm
phos = 1347 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

26. 10W40 Valvoline 4 Stroke Motorcycle Oil conventional, API SJ = 65,553 psi
zinc = 1154 ppm
phos = 1075 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

27. 5W30 Klotz Estorlin Racing Oil, API SL synthetic = 64,175 psi
zinc = 1765 ppm
phos = 2468 ppm
ZDDP = 2100 ppm

28. “ZDDPlus” added to Royal Purple 20W50, API SN, synthetic = 63,595 psi
zinc = 2436 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2053 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
ZDDP = 2200 ppm
The amount of ZDDPlus added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 24% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Most major Oil Companies say to NEVER add anything to their oils, because adding anything will upset the carefully balanced additive package, and ruin the oil’s chemical composition. And that is precisely what we see here. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

29. Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil conventional = 62,931 psi
zinc = 1170 ppm
phos = 1039 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

30. 10W30 Lucas Hot Rod & Classic Hi-Performance Oil, conventional = 62,538 psi
zinc = 2116 ppm
phos = 1855 ppm
ZDDP = 1900 ppm

31. 10W30 Comp Cams Muscle Car & Street Rod Oil, synthetic blend = 60,413 psi
zinc = 1673 ppm
phos = 1114 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

32. 10W40 Torco TR-1 Racing Oil with MPZ conventional = 59,905 psi
zinc = 1456 ppm
phos = 1150 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

33. “ZDDPlus” added to O’Reilly (house brand) 5W30, API SN, conventional = 56,728 psi
zinc = 2711 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2172 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
ZDDP = 2400 ppm
The amount of ZDDPlus added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 38% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

34. 10W40 Summit Racing Premium Racing Oil, API SL conventional = 59,483 psi
zinc = 1764 ppm
phos = 1974 ppm
Claimed ZDDP level on the bottle = 1800 ppm
NOTE: Summit discontinued this line of oil, as of spring of 2013.

35. “ZDDPlus” added to Motorcraft 5W30, API SN, synthetic = 56,243 psi
zinc = 2955 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2114 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
ZDDP = 2500 ppm
The amount of ZDDPlus added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 12% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

36. “Edelbrock Zinc Additive” added to Royal Purple 5W30, API SN, synthetic = 54,044 psi
zinc = 1515 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1334 ppm (up 517 ppm)
ZDDP = 1400 ppm
The amount of Edelbrock Zinc Additive added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was a whopping 36% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc Additive was added to it. Adding Edelbrock Zinc Additive SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

37. 10W30 Comp Cams Break-In Oil conventional = 51,749 psi
zinc = 3004 ppm
phos = 2613 ppm
ZDDP = 2800 ppm

38. “Edelbrock Zinc Additive” added to Lucas 5W30, API SN, conventional = 51,545 psi
zinc = 1565 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1277 ppm (up 517 ppm)
ZDDP = 1400 ppm
The amount of Edelbrock Zinc Additive added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was a “breath taking” 44% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc Additive was added to it. Adding Edelbrock Zinc Additive SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

39. “Edelbrock Zinc Additive” added to Motorcraft 5W30, API SN, synthetic = 50,202 psi
zinc = 1680 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1275 ppm (up 517 ppm)
ZDDP = 1400 ppm
The amount of Edelbrock Zinc Additive added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 22% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc Additive was added to it. Adding Edelbrock Zinc Additive SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

40. 30wt Lucas Break-In Oil conventional = 49,455 psi
zinc = 4483 ppm
phos = 3660 ppm
ZDDP = 4000 ppm

source =http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35836

 

[nectarXJ]

:lecture: For you sciencey engineers out there here's a post about how ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) works as an anit-wear agent:

source = http://www.camaros.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2148945&postcount=3

If you want to learn more about the value of Zinc or ZDDP, then let's check in with real scientists and chemists:

Here's a C&P'd response from the Corvette site:

I read it. Color me unimpresed. We've no idea what methodology you use for your findings other than you used a "tester" to determine that zinc (ZDDP) is a "myth".

I'll instead defer to real scientists (physicists and chemists). For instance, from here (a real research paper):

http://home.physics.wisc.edu/gilbert...cations/90.PDF

...is this:

"Currently, the most important antiwear and
antioxidant additive that is added to engine oils is a class
of molecules called zinc dialkyl dithiophosphates
(ZDDPs) [14]. Antiwear films generated from ZDDPs
are known to protect rubbing surfaces in engines, acting
as sacrificial films when being rubbed that are constantly
regenerated in a rubbing environment [15]. Studies have
shown that the breakdown products of ZDDPs, and not
the ZDDPs itself, provides the antiwear protection
needed to lubricate sliding steel surfaces within a simulated
and actual engine environment [16,17]. Several
studies show that ZDDPs decomposes upon rubbing to
form a protective film (tribofilm or antiwear film),
however thermal decomposition has also been the
accepted major mechanism of the antiwear film formation
[18–20]. It is well known that these films are comprised
of an amorphous polyphosphate glass structure."

And from here:

http://www.pcs-instruments.com/pdf/e...rch_Papers.pdf (see pg 8)

...is this:

"The film formation behaviour of lubricating oils containing zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) additives has been studied in rolling, concentrated contacts using ultra-thin-film interferometry. It has been shown that ZDDPP-containing oils form chemical films which are additional to the elastohydrodynamic (EHD) films produced by the base oil. ZDDP film formation occurs at elevated temperatures and begins in the range of 130°C to 170°C, depending upon the base oil type. The thickness of the films increases with temperature and test time. The ZDDP films formed are typically 5 to 25nm thick and appear to be solid-like surface coatings."

From here:

https://www.stle.org/assets/document...ature_5-05.pdf

...is this:

"ZDDP forms a protective film—a glass—on the
surface of engine components. This zincphosphate
glass, which is rich in zinc at the
surface and then becomes higher in iron as
it nears the metal’s surface, becomes about
10 nanometers thick and somehow self-regulates
to stay at that thickness."

From here:

http://uhv.cheme.cmu.edu/pubs/SurfChemTrib.130.pdf
(starting with pg 10)

is this,..

"Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate. There are few lubricant additives that have received as much attention in the literature as zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (“ZnDTP”, “ZDTP”, “ZDDP” or “ZDP”). Originally added to lubricating oil as an antioxidant[25], it was rapidly discovered that it also functioned as a highly effective antiwear and extreme-pressure additive, and is an essential ingredient in the vast majority of current lubricant formulations.

...and this:

"...the (ZDDP) film is intergrown with the oxide on the steel, which presumably also enhances mechanical stability[34]. The mechanism also shows that the glass can function as a digestion agent for iron oxides, which are abrasive and would increase wear."

From here:

http://www.apmaths.uwo.ca/~mmuser/Papers/TL05.pdf

Is this:

"Seventy years after their development, zinc di-
alkyldithiophosphates (ZDDPs) remain key anti-wear
(AW) additives in commercial lubricants used in auto-
motive applications [1,2]. This is particularly remark-
able considering that significant efforts have been made
over the last decade to replace ZDDP in engine oils."

Of course the makers of camshafts disagree with you as well,..and we're pretty sure they'd rather not warranty out camshafts; hence these tech bulletins. For instance from here:

http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/Fla...chBulletin.pdf

...is this:

"A major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of engine oil. Simply put, today’s engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever tightening environmental regulations. The EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils; however these changes in the oil have only made life tougher on your flat tappet camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically the reduction of important anti-wear additives such as zinc and phosphorus, which help break-in and overall camshaft life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend oil with the proper level of “ZDDP”, Zinc Dialkyl Dithiosphosphate additive fortification."

...or how about this from Crower Cams (one of the best):

http://www.crower.com/camshaft-installation

...which says (on pg. 6):

"BE AWARE! Flat tappet camshaft failure is a major problem for the fact that your favorite brand of engine oil is not what it used to be,..anti-wear ingrediants such as zinc and phosphorous have been dramatically reduced,.."

So there you have it, findings from real scientists.

 

[xcm]

HERE WE GO! get ready for round 4 of hearing that we dont need it after cam break in!

All jokes aside, im not a zddp fanboy. My engine builder told me to use it with every oil change, so i do. I have no problems with people(who arent my friends) NOT using it...

 

[DieselSJ]

HERE WE GO! get ready for round 4 of hearing that we dont need it after cam break in!

All jokes aside, im not a zddp fanboy. My engine builder told me to use it with every oil change, so i do. I have no problems with people(who arent my friends) NOT using it...

First cam that I wipe out, I will send you a 12 pack of your favorite hop based beverage and you can tell me "told you so" and I'll admit you were right and we can be friends.

 

[DieselSJ]

Question - what is the over/under on what a "safe" level of ZDDP is? In the information posted above, none are ZDDP free. Even the "Joe Gibbs" that seems to be highly recommended has the low end of 1100ppm. That oil doesn't even have as good of numbers as cheapo non-synth 15w40 Delo ($11/gal at Walmart). What makes the Joe Gibbs stuff better?

 

[md21722]

Racing oils are formulated for racing conditions where high temperature stability is important and fuel economy, and emissions are less of an issue. Typically passenger car 10w-30 is formulated to pass the API fuel economy tests and it wouldn't surprise me if it shared to a 20 weight for the test sequence before thickening back up to a 30 weight. For what its worth, my 01 XJ has 336,000 and it has a rear main seal leak. It leaks but doesn't really burn oil. My compression test numbers have been posted before. Generally it has run Mobil Delvac 5w-40 or equivalent synthetic HDEO most of its life, with 10,000-12,000 oil changes. Other than the RMS leak, it runs like a champ. I've had the 01 XJ for 300,000 miles. First owner put synthetic in at 300 miles of factory new and I bought it at 36,000...