Welding question

[Fred]

If one is attempting to run a vertical bead, is it better to move the weld up, or down. Not that I can run a bead, I just splatter boogers with my flux core welder, but if I could run a bead, which would be the way to do it?

Fred

 

[Stang5lgt]

From the top down that way you can control the puddle as it falls.

 

[Hypoid]

Up; easier to control penetration and weld deposit.

F-3= Verticle-up.

 

[Frank Z]

Up; easier to control penetration and weld deposit.

F-3= Verticle-up.

x2

 

[Stang5lgt]

Vertical down is done with electrodes having a cellulosic cover, which permits the use of high currents for welding at high travel speed.
In general vertical down is used on thinner sheets, because it is considered less prone to burn through, as it provides for reduced penetration, and it is faster than vertical up.
Skilled welders familiar with Vertical-welding-tips are said to prefer positioning thin sheets for vertical down welding even if the flat position is available, to increase welding speed and avoid burn through.
Vertical up is used for thicker plates, the border being somewhere between 3 and 6 mm (1/8 to 1/4").

 

[XCastleXJ]

it's easier to make it pretty running it down. but if you at all care about penetration or structural integrity, run it from bottom to top.

its a bit harder and will likely piss you off but is worth it. i'd practice on some scrap first if you're unsure about doing it.

 

[Hypoid]

It does take practice to get the hang of it. It also helps to have someone show you a time or two.

I tried to find a link you could reference, but I fell asleep first. LOL

I do remember something I read last night: "You can always tell a welder, but you can't tell him much. Then you have to show him!"

 

[Stang5lgt]

Considering he is using flux and all you guys are using gas. He does not have advantage of the cooling from the gas. It a real PITA to run a bead up with flux. You end up with a big glob of chit at the bottom of the weld. And maybe a drip that runs into your shoe. Plus flux penetrates deeper then Argon or CO2.

 

[Hypoid]

Gas!?!?!? I don't have no stinkin gas!

 

[XCastleXJ]

Considering he is using flux and all you guys are using gas. He does not have advantage of the cooling from the gas. It a real PITA to run a bead up with flux. You end up with a big glob of chit at the bottom of the weld. And maybe a drip that runs into your shoe. Plus flux penetrates deeper then Argon or CO2.

ive done it with both gas a flux. set your machine right and move at the right speed and you wont have any problems.

And maybe a drip that runs into your shoe

haha i was sitting down welding overhead and had a spark fall into my lap and burn through to my boxers. all of a sudden my junk was getting really hot and had i noticed just a few seconds later... it would have gone through the last layer and it wouldnt have been a good day.

 

[_dallas_]

Up or down, either way, I go which ever way I can get the rod, tungsten or MIG gun into position the best. Going up tends to be a hotter weld and builds up a bigger bead. The best thing to do is practice, practice, practice until you get the results you want. It also helps to have someone show you, then watch you and give pointers.

 

[Boostwerks.com]

Vertical up is the only weld process even considered in structural welding. I agree that down welding is best for thin sheets because the puddle cools very rapidly. However, the weld hardly ever fuses on the edges of the weld in a down position.

Just don't try and get certified by runing a down weld

 

[Boostwerks.com]

Considering he is using flux and all you guys are using gas. He does not have advantage of the cooling from the gas. It a real PITA to run a bead up with flux. You end up with a big glob of chit at the bottom of the weld. And maybe a drip that runs into your shoe. Plus flux penetrates deeper then Argon or CO2.

This is actually a welding myth. Gas does not "cool" the puddle. It simply sheilds the puddle from impurities in the air. In most cases, it actually increases penetration.

Most structural steel shops utilize gas sheilded flux core for the deepest penetration, least contamination, and ability to run in the overhead and vertical positions.

It is also a myth that flux core penetrates deeper than gas'd welding. Actually pulse'd hardwire MIG has the deepest penetration out of any welding process. Flux core is simply used because of it's ability to be used in any position, and contamination prevention properties.

 

[Fred]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm just attaching some steel to a trailer body, so thankfully there is nothing really critical about what I am doing. Every now and then I manage to get what appears to be a bead from my 90 amp Harbor Freight flux welder, but mostly not. I've watched a few decent welders, but obviously didn't learn much. I have no intention of ever welding overhead, that would be too much like work, and this is just a hobby.

I'm fairly close to having the M416 ready for camping at CO Fest, now I just need to work on the jeep. I know how to do that, so it's boring. :gee:

Fred

 

[Stang5lgt]

This is actually a welding myth. Gas does not "cool" the puddle. It simply sheilds the puddle from impurities in the air. In most cases, it actually increases penetration.

100% CO2
This gas is very cold and therefore cools the weld pool, thus requiring more welding power than when using an Argon mix. However, this gas is much cheaper than an Argon mix.

Myth huh???

 

[Stang5lgt]

It is also a myth that flux core penetrates deeper than gas'd welding. Actually pulse'd hardwire MIG has the deepest penetration out of any welding process. Flux core is simply used because of it's ability to be used in any position, and contamination prevention properties.

Most of us do not own a pulse mig. So in normal home use welder Flux does penetrate deeper. My welder is only rated at 5/16s with gas and 5/8s with flux. Which would make me guess that flux penetrates deeper maybe I am wrong.

Lincoln 180 wire feed welder
MIG weld 24 gauge up to 3/16" sheet metal in a single pass. Weld up to 1/2" steel using self-shielded Lincoln Innershield® wire

 

[Frank Z]

I carry CO2 on my van and use it daily and am extremely familiar with it's properties.
The gas is not cold just because it's CO2. If that were the case then your CO2 bottle would be to cold to handle. The low temperature is achieved by a drop in pressure when it leaves the cylinder, just like any other gas or luiquid that is stored under pressure.

CO2 used in welding is delivered to the nozzle at only 12-18 PSI (generally) and at that pressure the flow rate is extremely low and is not sufficient to create a low temperature zone that will have any cooling effect on the molten steel.

 

[Stang5lgt]

I carry CO2 on my van and use it daily and am extremely familiar with it's properties.
The gas is not cold just because it's CO2. If that were the case then your CO2 bottle would be to cold to handle. The low temperature is achieved by a drop in pressure when it leaves the cylinder, just like any other gas or luiquid that is stored under pressure.

CO2 used in welding is delivered to the nozzle at only 12-18 PSI (generally) and at that pressure the flow rate is extremely low and is not sufficient to create a low temperature zone that will have any cooling effect on the molten steel.

I keep finding all these guys saying stuff about CO2 cooling someone is wrong.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SIP-02658-Co2...temQQimsxZ20090611?IMSfp=TL090611212004r31103

 

[timmy80930]

Vertical down is done with electrodes having a cellulosic cover, which permits the use of high currents for welding at high travel speed.
In general vertical down is used on thinner sheets, because it is considered less prone to burn through, as it provides for reduced penetration, and it is faster than vertical up.
Skilled welders familiar with Vertical-welding-tips are said to prefer positioning thin sheets for vertical down welding even if the flat position is available, to increase welding speed and avoid burn through.
Vertical up is used for thicker plates, the border being somewhere between 3 and 6 mm (1/8 to 1/4").

X2 X3 That is a great explenation in laymans terms

 

[Hypoid]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm just attaching some steel to a trailer body, so thankfully there is nothing really critical about what I am doing...

I'm fairly close to having the M416 ready for camping at CO Fest, now I just need to work on the jeep. I know how to do that, so it's boring. :gee:

Fred

That's cool Fred! Now that you have the steel on place, you can always go back later and get a nicer finish pass.

To me it's kind of ironic that while you were starting this thread, I was out behind the garage welding on a storage rack. I was happy to be running uphill because of the penetration.

Every now and then I manage to get what appears to be a bead from my 90 amp Harbor Freight flux welder, but mostly not. I've watched a few decent welders, but obviously didn't learn much. I have no intention of ever welding overhead, that would be too much like work, and this is just a hobby.

My old stick welder goes up to 230 amps. Last night, I had it turned down to 60 or 70 amps...and that was still a little hot. I've been around metalworking most of my life, but I'm still learning this stuff. Keep that hobby mentality, keep learning new things, and practice, practice, practice... :thumbup: