Uttermost Off Road

[TRNDRVR]

Thanks... that is virtually EXACTLY what my wife and I said, yet today we are fully immersed in serving God in and out of church.

Why didn't you fully immerse yourselves in each other? Did you feel that both you and your wife were just too weak and you needed that crutch to lean on/blame?

I assumed that you were coming at the discussion from a point of either hatred toward God, or agnosticism toward God, and I was correct in my assumption,

You're absolutely wrong on your assumption. Can't have hatred towards somethig that DOESN'T exist.

The answer to that question is just like I said above... God showed that He was both REAL and in control. He showed me in a number of ways that loosing a son was a small price to pay for gaining a life, and in any case, after over 20 years of advanced theological study, I have now come to a couple conclusions about God, faith, God's desire to build relationships, and the absolute goodness, love, and grace of God -- ALL THE TIME -- even when it doesn't seem so to us, from our perspective.

I don't think "god" showed you anything. I think some 'snake oil salesman' showed you what you wanted to see. If you really believe what you believe, by both of us losing a child, we got fawked. How can YOU put your trust into someone that robbed you of something so near and dear to you and your wife?

How about this biblical pasage by another hurting dad?

2 Samuel 12:13-31 (ESV) David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. [14] Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die."

[15] Then Nathan went to his house.And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick.

[16] David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. [17] And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them.

[18] On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm."

[19] But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" They said, "He is dead."

[20] Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.

[21] Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food."

[22] He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'

[23] But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."
​

Note that King David, even though he sinned against God with Bathsheba, was called "A man after God's own heart..."

Acts 13:22 (ESV) And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, 'I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.'​

He got fawked too!!!

I take great comfort in knowing that God, through the words of King David, a man after God's own heart, said that I could go to where my son now is... That is the work of a good and gracious God, not the God I thought I knew (and perhaps the one you think you know) -- a capricious evil God. God is not evil. "He works all things out together for good for those who are called according to His purpose..." Perhaps this dialog is your "call." God does things through other humans -- that is His way. Test Him as I did and see if He is real. You might be VERY suprised as I (and my wife) was.

By your definition, I'm an atheist, always have been and always will be. So is my wife, and so are my kids. Don't need an imaginary friend to draw my strength from, I'm quite capable of doing that on my own. My sucesses and failures are all me. You should try it sometime, you just might start to question yourself. :dunno:


PS How I would like to say more, but I'm sure it would definitely get this thread closed. I wouldn't want to not be able to see you dig yourself deeper in your self admitted weakness. Be a man and stand up for YOURSELF.

 

[STEELFISH]

On an interesting note do you realize that he has taken none of this personally? Yet some of the folks are taking it personally and at that point because of the personal threat they are feeling are questioning this mans physical/mental strength.

I pose a question to TRNDRVR.
When you are tired after a long day of work, how do you sit down? You put your faith in something else a chair, maybe a lazy-boy, the point being that at that point you have put your faith in something else besides you, haven't you? How do you know that Chair is going to hold you up? It could let you down... I have seen it happen. Does it mean you are weak if you sit down? Physically? Mentally? Try to sit with out a chair (can't use the wall either) How long can you last? The same thing happens in life when you have no hope. There is hope to be had in the Real Living God. How do I know? I put my faith in Him who is greater than I, and I have no fear of taking a "preverbial(sp?) seat" in God. He holds me up when I can't hold myself up any longer. I know as readily and as assuredly(sp) as you know your recliner isn't going to collapse on you.

 

[rock rash]

I pose a question to TRNDRVR.
When you are tired after a long day of work, how do you sit down? You put your faith in something else a chair, maybe a lazy-boy, the point being that at that point you have put your faith in something else besides you, haven't you? How do you know that Chair is going to hold you up? It could let you down... I have seen it happen. Does it mean you are weak if you sit down? Physically? Mentally? Try to sit with out a chair (can't use the wall either) How long can you last? The same thing happens in life when you have no hope.

unless you have really strong legs and back

 

[ECKSJAY]

I pose a question to TRNDRVR.
When you are tired after a long day of work, how do you sit down? You put your faith in something else a chair, maybe a lazy-boy, the point being that at that point you have put your faith in something else besides you, haven't you? How do you know that Chair is going to hold you up? It could let you down... I have seen it happen. Does it mean you are weak if you sit down? Physically? Mentally? Try to sit with out a chair (can't use the wall either) How long can you last? The same thing happens in life when you have no hope. There is hope to be had in the Real Living God. How do I know? I put my faith in Him who is greater than I, and I have no fear of taking a "preverbial(sp?) seat" in God. He holds me up when I can't hold myself up any longer. I know as readily and as assuredly(sp) as you know your recliner isn't going to collapse on you.

I think I can speak for Dan when I say that the answer would be: "I have faith in the chair supporting me because I can see it and know it's real...the chair isn't a mental image."

:shhh:

 

[Highlander]

Glfredrick....


Please define your use of Pagan... I'd love to hear it.

I have several friends who practice wicca and are considered "Pagan".
However none smoke, drink, swear, or have ever hurt anyone.
I find it funny that you use the word several times in your rebuttals as meaning someone who is on the wrong path of life. My suggestion is that you may want to study a little more before you use terms that are not correct.

 

[ECKSJAY]

Glfredrick....


Please define your use of Pagan... I'd love to hear it.

I have several friends who practice wicca and are considered "Pagan".
However none smoke, drink, swear, or have ever hurt anyone.
I find it funny that you use the word several times in your rebuttals as meaning someone who is on the wrong path of life. My suggestion is that you may want to study a little more before you use terms that are not correct.

In my experience, 'Pagan' is ignorantly equal to 'Infidel'.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Glfredrick....


Please define your use of Pagan... I'd love to hear it.

I have several friends who practice wicca and are considered "Pagan".
However none smoke, drink, swear, or have ever hurt anyone.
I find it funny that you use the word several times in your rebuttals as meaning someone who is on the wrong path of life. My suggestion is that you may want to study a little more before you use terms that are not correct.

Perhaps Gentile, or Infidel? From the Christian perspective those would define the non-Christian population.


Oh, Damn. I swore I wasn't going to post in this thread

Damn, ECKSJAY! You beat me to it!

 

[goodburbon]

1. If just any arsehole off the street can nail a protest to a church door and suddenly change what god IS, how could you possibly allow yourself to believe such blatent bullshyt?

2. "If God be for me who can be against me?" The fact that people were able to post in opposition to you is proof of its nonexixtience

3. The church uses you. It uses you to bring in more capital, to spread your "wonderful" revelations and bring in more money. Doesn't matter what church it is, they're all businesses. You will argue that you don't encourage anyone to attend a specific church, but the business as a whole must flourish so that future generations can buy into the bullshyt and pastors can continue to vend happiness with a splash of water.

4. Those of you who continue to quote a very boring and long work of fiction to prove your point, continue to lose audience because it is a long and boring work of fiction.

5. Ever read a little book called JOB? Its a nifty little book in the bible that illustrates how "god" only really fawks with those who truly believe, and then throws a fit if you ever tell it that it was a pretty f'ed up thing for it (god) to do.

6. How can an all knowing, but generous and loving being create someone specifically to send them to hell for an eternity for "sins" it knew they would commit before they were "created"?

 

[STEELFISH]

Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person


Oh and the see to believe statement- Do you believe in air? How do you breathe? Can you see the wind? Yet you feel it..palleeze man you know better than that yourself.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

As far as what I believe, it makes no difference here.

As far as what I can prove, nothing exists beyond my perception. As far as I know, I am all that there is and none of you exist except as figments of my imagination. Why I would dream up this silly debate, I have no idea but...there you go

 

[uttermost]

Hello All,

Sorry for the break I was off line for the weekend and had a hard time getting on this morning. I am happy to see such a response to my post, some good some bad, however alot and I thank you. In Ecclesiastes 3:11 it says, " He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in YOUR hearts, except noone can find out the work that God does from beginning to end". This PAssage from the old Testament tells us that God created us and everyone one of else has a deep seated compulsive drive to transcend morality and to know the truth of the World. Now I had that same desire to find out the truth, like many of you. I looked hi and low and as a veteran I had the opportunity to search for that truth in many different places. Many philosophers filled my head as well as evolutionists. Through all of this I found that every walk of life puts Faith in something. The evelutionist puts his faith in the fact that an atom smaller than what the naked eye can see at one point exploded and created by chance a universe as large as this one, (huge leap of faith). After studying this I came to the conclusion that if that could happen than if lightning struck a tree than all of the splinters would fall to the ground and make a house, wouldn't that be nice. Hey no motgage just buy a tree on an acre and connect a lightning rod to it and just wait, BOOM!! That doesn't work.
My point is is this, we are not evolved we are created, your anscestor is not Curious George it is Adam and Eve and you were created in God's image and He gave you His likeness and characteristics. Your anscestors bought sin into this World because of their disobedience and that sin is passed onto YOU. God punished for that sin just like you would punish your children for their disobedience, only His was harsher because He is a just cause and does not bend and cannot be around sin. You on the other hand as parent are not just and can change on how you punish, God will not. So because of this Sin God gave prophetic messages in the old testament about the remission of Sin that was to come. When that remission of Sin came it was in the form of a Virgin concieved man named Jesus this prophecy can be found in Genesis 3:15 when God said their will be enmity between your seed Satan (serpent) and her seedn ( Jesus). No other account in history has the woman produced the seed man has the seed woman has the egg. The book of Genesis is important to not only Christians but also to Jews and Muslims. In the Bible, Toarh and Koran says that sin can only be washed away by the blood of a sinless creature. Before Jesus there was no sinless man only animals. When Jesus came as the sinless lamb He put himself on the cross to pay for our sins. It took one sin to seperate us from God and it took one sacrificial remision by God's Son to reunite us with God. Now in the Book of John chapter 3 Jesus tells a Pharisee (Jewish Scholar), named Nicademus that the only way to see the Kingdom of heaven is to be born again. This baffled Nicademus as it did many others, He asked how can I reenter the womb of my mother. What Jesus meant by this is this unless you put your Faith into what the Son of God was about to do on the cross for YOUR SIN READER and apply it your life and ask forgiveness for you sin and be born again spiritually into this new covenant and allow the Son of God to use His Blood to wash away your sin like soap and start living a new life for Him than you will nto see the Kingdom of Heaven which was created for you. Hell was not created for you it was created for Satan and he tempted our ancestors so he could take Gods creation down with Him. The Sin is a trait passed on through the genetics from our earthly parents from Adam and Eve. Revelations 3:20 Jesus says" Behold I stand at the door and knock, if you open the door I will come into you and sup". In Jewish tradition supper was very honorable and it was a time of meaningful encounter and Jesus is telling us in this passage that we have to open the door to our lives and allow Him without hesitation to be part of you and take control of you life. Now I know this sounds weird, I danced with Satan for 24 years and allowing somebody I cannot see take control of my life sounded crazy to me. However, I came to the realization that after death my sould was going somewhere for eternity, so I let go of the worldly reality and trusted in Jesus and my life is so much different now. I know their are " un " christians out there who only talk about Jesus on Sunday and talk about Satan the rest of the week. But Christian means Christ like, and in order for you to be Christ like you have to believe without a shadow of a doubt the Jesus Christ is Lord and He died for your sins just like you know without a shadow of a doubt you mom gave birth to you.
You cannot refute the historical record of the man named Jesus, He is in all of world history including the Bible and every other historical document of the time. The crucifiction is in Jewish History as well as Roman. The empty tomb and the missing body is not only a Christian historical record it is also a Jewish record a Roman record. The Jews did not steal the body and either did the Romans because if they did they would have presented it as evidence to squash the Christian account of the resurrection. The disciples did not take it if they did they would have to sneak past the Roman legion, fat chance of that happening and than sneak past the Jewish guards at the entrance of the tomb. Roll back a 2 ton stone take the body, fold the burial scarfs nice and neatly and then sneak past all of those people again with stinking 3day old corpse. No He rose from the dead. I know you are thinking he never died. Nobody survived the Roman execution of crucifiction if they did the soldiers involved would have been crucified, so they made sure he was dead. The Bible says He was beaten beyond recognition and that was all for you. John 3:16 For God so Loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son and Whoever (You) believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son to condemn the World but that through Him the World may be saved.
Now you must ask yourself what have you put your Faith in, and what is you idea of heaven which the World gets from the Bible. If you can get your idea about Heaven from the Bible, why not look for how to get there in the Bible. If you do not believe in Heaven, I am sorry to tell you this one day YOU will die and live in eternity somewhere. What is it going to be Heaven or Hell???? You Decide!!! John 14:6 Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me". You cannot say Jesus was a Good man but lied about who He is, that is not a good man. You cannot have your cake and eat it to. You either believe in God and His Son Jesus Christ or not. Jesus says I would rather you be Hot or Cold, because if you are a Lukewarm Christian than I will Puke you out of my mouth Revelations 3:16. Nor is there Salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we should be saved." Acts 4:12

Just to think this all started because I was looking for some people to go 4 wheeling with. I prayed that I would seize every opportunity to let people know what Jesus did for them. Acts 1:8 " But You Shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses of Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria and to the UTTERMOST ENDS OF THE EARTH. I am not Bastardizing Christianity I am doing the Fathers will which in Matthew 24:14 tells me to preach the Gospel (Good News of Jesus Christ) to all the World, which all of you a part of. Just like Jack Nicholson said, "You can't handle the Truth", but Jesus said, "the Truth shall set you free. I am honored to be persecuted in the Name of Jesus Christ. <>< So anybody want to go 4 wheeling? Also read Romans 10:9-13, Romans 6:23 Romans 8:1-8

 

[goodburbon]

I wasn't flaming the creator of this thread, he was just asking for people who share his beilefs to wheel with him........Until Now.

The evelutionist puts his faith in the fact that an atom smaller than what the naked eye can see at one point exploded and created by chance a universe as large as this one, (huge leap of faith).

Where did you get this info? one atom......."matter can neither be created nor destroyed" it was all here to begin with, and will always be here, just not necessarily in the same form. Do a little actual reading next time your decide to research something.

You continue to cite the bible as historical reference. it is not. I can make quotes form the bible support anything I want them to, including molestation, incest, slavery, racism...you get the point? Your "spellbook" is useless as evidence for the existience of something it is a story about.

your anscestor is not Curious George

Does it make you that uncomfortable to realize that we are actually animals? Evolution does not state that we come from chimps, but that we evolved similarly to them. You can see obvious behavioral similarities as CLEAR evidence of relation, as well as physical and genetic evidence.

There can not possibly be a hell. If there is, your god is one sadistic fawker.

Virgin birth my AZZ! Someone didn't want to tarnish the family name, and/or get stoned to death, but her cover story was a little more exuberant than most.

Continue to believe whatever you want, but don't try to pass it off as a more logical approach, because it is not.

 

[Glenn B]

How old is the Earth?

 

[TRNDRVR]

I think I can speak for Dan when I say that the answer would be: "I have faith in the chair supporting me because I can see it and know it's real...the chair isn't a mental image."

:shhh:

Thanks Phil, couldn’t have said it better. His analogy is stupid!

 

[IXNAYXJ]

My point is is this, we are not evolved we are created, your anscestor is not Curious George it is Adam and Eve and you were created in God's image and He gave you His likeness and characteristics. Your anscestors bought sin into this World because of their disobedience and that sin is passed onto YOU.

No, THIS is why we should believe.

The point is, EVERYTHING can be proven, if you try hard enough. Check out the site where this came from...it's brilliant. www.venganza.org "Touched by His Noodly Appendage."

-----Matt-----

 

[ECKSJAY]

The point is, EVERYTHING can be proven, if you try hard enough.

However, it's theories (religious or otherwise...which is exactly what evolution and creation ARE) that need to be DISproven in order to be 'true'. Until then...

 

[IXNAYXJ]

However, it's theories (religious or otherwise...which is exactly what evolution and creation ARE) that need to be DISproven in order to be 'true'. Until then...

Okay, smart guy. DISprove the graph. It's true, isn't it? WWFSMD?

-----Matt-----

 

[red91]

My theory is that we all need to get together and smoke a little pot.

That should mellow you all out. Let's see if we can prove it.


Rock Rash's House saturday all day.


Please turn this thread off...i lost 10 minutes of my life and $5.00 on tylenol.


Pirates are cool, we need more of them. I'm joining forces with Captian Ron.

 

[TRNDRVR]

My point is is this, we are not evolved we are created, your anscestor is not Curious George it is Adam and Eve and you were created in God's image and He gave you His likeness and characteristics.

You're so full of shit! You have no proof to back up this statement. And Curious George happens to be my great, great, great, great, great, uncle. Bought me my first bike.

Also, what about Adam and Steve?

Just to think this all started because I was looking for some people to go 4 wheeling with. I prayed that I would seize every opportunity to let people know what Jesus did for them.

What do you think he has done for ME? Show me some examples. I'll tell you right now you can't.


!!!1

 

[IXNAYXJ]

Also, what about Adam and Steve?

Brokeback Eden?

-----Matt-----