91 Jeep Project said:
Jesus was of the line of David right? Which fullfilled whatever prophecy. But if Mary never got it on with Joseph (of the line of David), to have Jesus. Then he couldn't have genetically been of the line of David and your whole religion is a farce. Mull that over for a while.
Both Mary and Joseph traced their line back to King David. It actually gets more complicated than that, becasue Joseph's line stems from one of the sons of Solomon who was cursed by God, while Mary's line did not. Jesus inherited his kingship from both parents -- from Mary, being birth mom, and from the line that was uncursed by God, and from Joseph, as adoptive father, who;s line was cursed, biut yet the legal right (in the eyes of the powers that lead Israel) to the throne.
The virgin conception was God's supernatural way of dealing with the dilemma of the curse, and also His way of bringing into the earth Messiah, who was the first man born without an inherited sin nature since Adam. The virgin conception was necessary...
Fergie said:
Why though? That is, and always has been my question.
All the reasons you gave were mortal interpretations of God, all the way back to Luther. He didn't like what was going on, so he took his ball and went to a different court.
Would you even believe in God if there wasnt Church to tell you what to do? Would you believe if there wasn't the Bible to direct you?
All your beliefs and reasonings are based off on the thoughts and interpretationns of men.
Why? Many could turn and ask you the same exact question. No one that I've ever met has had all the specifics of the universe under their thumb. We all respond to the teaching of someone, somewhere. A beter question is "Why not?" Blase Pascal once posed a quandry...
"God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up... Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose... But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is... If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.
Said in other ways:
"If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything."
"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "
This is the reasoning of man... And partly the reason that so many of us that feel as if we have a choice have chosen God over some other system of belief. Of course, you would have to read the rest of Pascal's Pensees to understand that Pascal was ALSO arguing for the Christian God -- the God of the Bible.
The atheist prefers THIS argument:
"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him."
Seemingly, it is more productive and self-satisfying (see, in order to play fair, I even give both sides of the equation) to the atheist mind. The problem is, however, that IF there is a God, then that same God would have His own standards that would have to be met -- and the Christian who believes that God is the God who revealed Himself in the Bible also knows that that same God said that you cannot get to Him via good works or on your own merits, so the atheist's argument becomes a moot point -- it doesn't work at all IF there is a God!
As far as other reasons for believing in God, why not the simple fact that SO many people have had life-changing experiences with God when they have come to Him in the ways stipulated in the Bible -- by faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ on the Cross! The Apostle Paul said it most succinctly in Romans 10:
Romans 10:1-21 (ESV) Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
[2] I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. [5] For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.
[6] But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) [7] or " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
[8] But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); [9] because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[10] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. [11] For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
[12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. [13] For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
[14] But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [15] And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" [17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. [18] But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
"Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world."
[19] But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,
"I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry."
[20] Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
"I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."
[21] But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."
You ask if we would still believe if there were no Bible to follow... That is somewhat a misguided question, like asking if there is something like a round-square. The simple fact is that there IS a Bible, and that Bible claims to be the Word of God, innerent, infalible, and trustworthy for life, happiness, joy, and faith. Millions upon millons of people have read it, trusted it, and have had their lives changed by it -- far less have had similar results from following atheism...
Now, let's see how long this post survives on this board -- and also note, discussions like this are EXACTLY the reason that we found Christian clubs and Internet forums. Any who would like to continue the discussion are welcome...
