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URF spy pics: CRASH's 3 link

PC-UT-XJ said:
I guess I'm kinda out of place to question the validity of spending more money to improve a system that already worked just fine. You see, for me, I like to get it right the first time. For example, I just bought a lot of axle upgrades and even a brand new 44. And that's it. I'm not about to go buy a Dana 60 because I can get a great deal on it. I'm drawing the line; both with my car and with my money. Some of you obviously have bigger plans for his XJ than I do. It looks like you want an unstoppable rockkrawler (I'm assuming for the sake of my argument, I've never seen your rigs). Then why didn't you just buy a Bruiser or a Sniper? And don't say it's because you like all of that cargo room or enjoy that climate controlled cabin.

Just because you feel you should "draw the line" doesn't mean everyone should. Everyone has different reasons for the way they build their jeep. The same reason people have different bigger/smaller houses and stuff of that sort.

The way you think about this really pisses me off. Your way is not the only way, and it should not be thought that it is. Go complain to everyone that has a truck built for rock crawling saying it's a waste of time and money because what they could've "drawn the line" or kept what they had.

This sport is not about the money, even though it may cost an arm and a leg. People have fun building their own creations, seeing what they can do, and what their new creation can make it through. This is why one does not buy a production tube buggy....I'm done for now, gotta go to work. _nicko_
 
PC-UT-XJ said:
I guess I'm kinda out of place to question the validity of spending more money to improve a system that already worked just fine. You see, for me, I like to get it right the first time. For example, I just bought a lot of axle upgrades and even a brand new 44. And that's it. I'm not about to go buy a Dana 60 because I can get a great deal on it. I'm drawing the line; both with my car and with my money. Some of you obviously have bigger plans for his XJ than I do. It looks like you want an unstoppable rockkrawler (I'm assuming for the sake of my argument, I've never seen your rigs). Then why didn't you just buy a Bruiser or a Sniper? And don't say it's because you like all of that cargo room or enjoy that climate controlled cabin.
:rolleyes:
Works just fine for who? At what lift? With what tire size? Maybe gather more info before judging.........
 
PC-UT-XJ said:
I guess I'm kinda out of place to question the validity of spending more money to improve a system that already worked just fine. You see, for me, I like to get it right the first time. For example, I just bought a lot of axle upgrades and even a brand new 44. And that's it. I'm not about to go buy a Dana 60 because I can get a great deal on it. I'm drawing the line; both with my car and with my money. Some of you obviously have bigger plans for his XJ than I do. It looks like you want an unstoppable rockkrawler (I'm assuming for the sake of my argument, I've never seen your rigs). Then why didn't you just buy a Bruiser or a Sniper? And don't say it's because you like all of that cargo room or enjoy that climate controlled cabin.
in a lot of ways I agree with you, why spend so much time and money to have a "pretty good" rock crawler. I've done the same thing though, some people get attached to their project and enjoy watching it grow and grow. We reached the the place you speak of, as why not just buy a bruiser or sniper?....this was our answer http://www.nc4x4.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=8214
 
PC-UT-XJ said:
I guess I'm kinda out of place to question the validity of spending more money to improve a system that already worked just fine.
More money? What he did didn't cost much at all since he had most of the stuff laying around in his garage. As far as it working "just fine" the way it was, maybe for someone who ventures off road a couple times a year it was fine but it wasn't fine for Andy. Frankly, the arms hung too low and the bushings wore out really fast on his old system, plus there were some issues of clearance with the trac bar and axle mounts, etc.

You see, for me, I like to get it right the first time.
How do you get it right the first time when someone has never done it? Andy was probably one of the first people to put a "long arm" suspention under an XJ.
For example, I just bought a lot of axle upgrades and even a brand new 44. And that's it. I'm not about to go buy a Dana 60 because I can get a great deal on it.
What the hell does putting axles under your rig have to do with building a custom suspention?
I'm drawing the line; both with my car and with my money.
Good for you but we're not talking about cars or money here.
Some of you obviously have bigger plans for his XJ than I do. It looks like you want an unstoppable rockkrawler (I'm assuming for the sake of my argument, I've never seen your rigs). Then why didn't you just buy a Bruiser or a Sniper?
You can't drive a bruiser or a Sniper on the freeway at 75+ MPH and those would be very poor choices to drive to work everyday. Also, why would you need those to run the Rubicon or the trails at Moab?
And don't say it's because you like all of that cargo room or enjoy that climate controlled cabin.
Why the hell not?

Jes
 
PC-UT-XJ said:
I guess I'm kinda out of place to question the validity of spending more money to improve a system that already worked just fine. You see, for me, I like to get it right the first time. For example, I just bought a lot of axle upgrades and even a brand new 44. And that's it. I'm not about to go buy a Dana 60 because I can get a great deal on it. I'm drawing the line; both with my car and with my money. Some of you obviously have bigger plans for his XJ than I do. It looks like you want an unstoppable rockkrawler (I'm assuming for the sake of my argument, I've never seen your rigs). Then why didn't you just buy a Bruiser or a Sniper? And don't say it's because you like all of that cargo room or enjoy that climate controlled cabin.

I both agree and disagree with you, but I respect the balls it takes to say something like that, unless of course you're trolling for some reaction and only stirring the pot....which you've done well. I don't like mods done just to do them, or to be cool, without regard to what the actual performance improvements will be, and there is plenty of that kind of stuff. I do like well thought out mods that do improve reliability and performance, like what CRASH has done with his front suspension.

As far as improving on the four link, since we can, why the hell not? You got a case of optilrectumituss on that one. The stock four link is only good up to certain lift heights, and I don't see what difference it makes whether someone buys a kit that relocates the mounts or fabs something up themselves.......as long as it's well designed, which some are not.

As far as wanting a full out rockcrawler out of an XJ, that's personal preference. I've been driving mine all over and running all kinds of trails, like Rubicon, Dusy, the Hammers, Moab, Montrose, etc., for many years. I like hard core rockcrawling and I like scenic trails with great camping spots, and a rig that can be driven there and back reliably. It's a design challenge to do that, and to me sticks with the original "sport utility" nature of the XJ (don't get me started...Real XJ's). Also, many people just build whatever they have, it's just a hobby, and to many building is part of the hobby just like driving it is.

Happy wheeling, :)
 
PC-UT-XJ said:
I guess I'm kinda out of place to question the validity of spending more money to improve a system that already worked just fine. You see, for me, I like to get it right the first time. For example, I just bought a lot of axle upgrades and even a brand new 44. And that's it. I'm not about to go buy a Dana 60 because I can get a great deal on it. I'm drawing the line; both with my car and with my money. Some of you obviously have bigger plans for his XJ than I do. It looks like you want an unstoppable rockkrawler (I'm assuming for the sake of my argument, I've never seen your rigs). Then why didn't you just buy a Bruiser or a Sniper? And don't say it's because you like all of that cargo room or enjoy that climate controlled cabin.


Well, I guess there's really nothing left to say here. It's all been covered :D

Except that just because you bought a brand new axle doesn't mean you did it right. If you had to buy a new axle I guess you didn't "do it right the first time"? To each there own. Do whatever the hell you want to your jeep, I'll do whatever the hell I want to mine, and I'm sure CRASH will keep doin' his thing if he can ever stop laughing at this thread.
 
OK, I'm back from the salt mines.

The quest for ultimate performance never really ends, does it? The factory solution to any problem always hinges on a cost/benefit analysis that is always heavily biased towards cost and against performance. Aftermarket solutions are based on a cost/benefit analysis as well, but with one or two more factors thrown in: ease of installation and customer service issues.


Let's look at this from an aftermarket suspension manufacturers point of view:

If my instruction sheet for the fitting of a crossmember were 10 pages long, would it get installed correctly, or would it get totally F-ed up by 50% of my customers? What if the FIRST thing on the manufacturers instructions were to torch off the LCA mounts? What if the next instructions was to strip every last bit of undercoating and zinc plating off of both sides of a frame? Would you do it? Now, try and imagine explaining the placement, and installation of 6 frame sleeves.....you only get one chance with a 1" hole saw.

You begin to see the complexities, don't you? A manufacturers phones would be ringing off the hook day and night, and he would have to hold many hands and take back many products. So he compromises. This is not a slant against a manufacturer, but he is trying to make a buck, not get the ultimate in performance.

OK, so now, for someone who has been in this sport for as long as Goat or myself (OMG, I can't believe I just compared Grandpa to my young, virile self), we recognoze what our needs are. We want three things above all else: Performance, durability and driveability. In most cases, you can pick two......but what if you could have all three? Wouldn't you want to try and achieve that state of nirvana? I think so.

My original RE long arm design has been in the rig since before RE introduced the TJ kit to the public. It worked, pretty well. There were compromises however. The crossmember hung 1.5" below the frame, the 6 bushings comprising the forward link mounts flexed like mad under braking and under torque loading, leading to a sloppy feeling on steep climbs. The bushings lasted maybe a year. And, the LCA mounts hung below the axle tube.

So, I had pretty good driveability, good performance, and pretty good durability (I hit a rock the size of a medium sized cooler at 45 mph, destroying a tire and breaking a D-44 spindle, and the suspension showed no dmamage). Again, I was at a compromised position, and felt that I could improve all three aspects of my design parameters.

As Beezil has stated many times, you can't talk XJ suspension design without laying under your rig for about two hours and just puzzling over where the fawk you are going to fit stuff. I went through it all again, string and tape measure in hand, until I figured out the only place I could put a UCA mount on a crossmember so I could have enough vertical seperation to have acceptable anti-dive. Second criteria was the crossmember COULD NOT hang below the frame rails. Period. Figured a way to do that. Now, the whole she-bang had to be able to work around that big mother of a gearbox I run. That was actually the easiest part, especially after I freed my inner Sawzall and cut a very large hole in the floor. ;)

Goat and I both ended up with three links. Two lowers that take impact stress and an upper that mainly serves as torque control. His upper is on the passenger side, and his links are mounted in more or less the factory locations on beefy mounts. The system has proven itself time and again, even in the fast stuff. But he wasn't quite happy. So he tweaked (and not just in the leather-hat-days sense ;) ). He had a bunch of dive under braking, so he moved the torque link a bit, and bingo, much better driveability. Mine has much longer links, which result in less caster change (not really that important in my book), and the torque arm is on the drivers side. So you see, suspension design is and iterative process, sometimes you get convergent design, and sometimes divergent. Sometimes, just when you think the performance of a design couldn't be better, you get a fresh perspective when new kinds of terrain are encountered......or when you want to go stupid fast across the desert with your stroker-jockey buddies chasing you, and the trophy is a fresh pitcher of marguaritas.

OK, pardon the deep thoughts, back to the design. What about control arms. Easy enough, i had plenty of experience to draw on here. I knew Goat had succesfully run a full set of Johnny Joints on his rig with no complaints except for the occasional tightening of a joint. I new I wanted a very solid, non-sloppy feeling so I went the same route, with the exception of the crossmember side of the UCA, which was so tight I needed to use a 1" heim because the overall width of the mount can be smaller. The crossmember UCA mount has three positions for adjustable anti-dive, in case my predictions on the anti-dive feel were off. The axle mounts were moved up flush with the tubes, so another compromise was defeated. Tubing is 2" x .25 4130 Chromoly, which I have had very good luck with in the past. Upper arm is 1.75" x .120", because it doesn't see nearly as much impact loading and it doesn't drag in the rocks.

{Insert pics here.....I'm lame and need to get the F-ing film developed}

The testing has yet to commence mostly due to the stroker build-up, but it should be on the trail soon for testing. I will not hesitate to report problems in any of the three main objectives, and I can already see that I may as well just order the coilovers now.... :)

Now, if someone wants to explain to me how you could reasonably design such a tight-fitting suspension around 18 production years of Jeep, incorporating 4 different T-cases, 6 different transmissions and various exhaust configurations, I'm all ears, because I think I could make a boatload of cash doing it. :)

CRASH

OMG, this may be my longest post ever. I'm in the same league as SteinJeep!
 
Last edited:
CRASH said:
OK, I'm back from the salt mines.

The quest for ultimate performance never really ends, does it? The factory solution to any problem always hinges on a cost/benefit analysis that is always heavily biased towards cost and against performance. Aftermarket solutions are based on a cost/benefit analysis as well, but with one or two more factors thrown in: ease of installation and customer service issues.


Let's look at this from an aftermarket suspension manufacturers point of view:

If my instruction sheet for the fitting of a crossmember were 10 pages long, would it get installed correctly, or would it get totally F-ed up by 50% of my customers? What if the FIRST thing on the manufacturers instructions were to torch off the LCA mounts? What if the next instructions was to strip every last bit of undercoating and zinc plating off of both sides of a frame? Would you do it? Now, try and imagine explaining the placement, and installation of 6 frame sleeves.....you only get one chance with a 1" hole saw.

You begin to see the complexities, don't you? A manufacturers phones would be ringing off the hook day and night, and he would have to hold many hands and take back many products. So he compromises. This is not a slant against a manufacturer, but he is trying to make a buck, not get the ultimate in performance.

OK, so now, for someone who has been in this sport for as long as Goat or myself (OMG, I can't believe I just compared Grandpa to my young, virile self), we recognoze what our needs are. We want three things above all else: Performance, durability and driveability. In most cases, you can pick two......but what if you could have all three? Wouldn't you want to try and achieve that state of nirvana? I think so.

My original RE long arm design has been in the rig since before RE introduced the TJ kit to the public. It worked, pretty well. There were compromises however. The crossmember hung 1.5" below the frame, the 6 bushings comprising the forward link mounts flexed like mad under braking and under torque loading, leading to a sloppy feeling on steep climbs. The bushings lasted maybe a year. And, the LCA mounts hung below the axle tube.

So, I had pretty good driveability, good performance, and pretty good durability (I hit a rock the size of a medium sized cooler at 45 mph, destroying a tire and breaking a D-44 spindle, and the suspension showed no dmamage). Again, I was at a compromised position, and felt that I could improve all three aspects of my design parameters.

As Beezil has stated many times, you can't talk XJ suspension design without laying under your rig for about two hours and just puzzling over where the fawk you are going to fit stuff. I went through it all again, string and tape measure in hand, until I figured out the only place I could put a UCA mount on a crossmember so I could have enough vertical seperation to have acceptable anti-dive. Second criteria was the crossmember COULD NOT hang below the frame rails. Period. Figured a way to do that. Now, the whole she-bang had to be able to work around that big mother of a gearbox I run. That was actually the easiest part, especially after I freed my inner Sawzall and cut a very large hole in the floor. ;)

Goat and I both ended up with three links. Two lowers that take impact stress and an upper that mainly serves as torque control. His upper is on the passenger side, and his links are mounted in more or less the factory locations on beefy mounts. The system has proven itself time and again, even in the fast stuff. But he wasn't quite happy. So he tweaked (and not just in the leather-hat-days sense ;) ). He had a bunch of dive under braking, so he moved the torque link a bit, and bingo, much better driveability. Mine has much longer links, which result in less caster change (not really that important in my book), and the torque arm is on the drivers side. So you see, suspension design is and iterative process, sometimes you get convergent design, and sometimes divergent. Sometimes, just when you think the performance of a design couldn't be better, you get a fresh perspective when new kinds of terrain are encountered......or when you want to go stupid fast across the desert with your stroker-jockey buddies chasing you, and the trophy is a fresh pitcher of marguaritas.

OK, pardon the deep thoughts, back to the design. What about control arms. Easy enough, i had plenty of experience to draw on here. I knew Goat had succesfully run a full set of Johnny Joints on his rig with no complaints except for the occasional tightening of a joint. I new I wanted a very solid, non-sloppy feeling so I went the same route, with the exception of the crossmember side of the UCA, which was so tight I needed to use a 1" heim because the overall width of the mount can be smaller. The crossmember UCA mount has three positions for adjustable anti-dive, in case my predictions on the anti-dive feel were off. The axle mounts were moved up flush with the tubes, so another compromise was defeated. Tubing is 2" x .25 4130 Chromoly, which I have had very good luck with in the past. Upper arm is 1.75" x .120", because it doesn't see nearly as much impact loading and it doesn't drag in the rocks.

{Insert pics here.....I'm lame and need to get the F-ing film developed}

The testing has yet to commence mostly due to the stroker build-up, but it should be on the trail soon for testing. I will not hesitate to report problems in any of the three main objectives, and I can already see that I may as well just order the coilovers now.... :)

Now, if someone wants to explain to me how you could reasonably design such a tight-fitting suspension around 18 production years of Jeep, incorporating 4 different T-cases, 6 different transmissions and various exhaust configurations, I'm all ears, because I think I could make a boatload of cash doing it. :)

CRASH

OMG, this may be my longest post ever. I'm in the same league as SteinJeep!



Geesh were we really supposed to read all of that in one sitting, this is a jeep board not some pansy touchy feely site!
 
Well said Andy......waiting for more pictures........

It's interesting to have experienced the evolution of the modified XJ, from the 3" Rancho and 4" Tomken lift days, to the full-on custom, hardcore trail ready, tubed, caged, trussed, coilover-ed, bobbed, chopped, diced and julien-ed uni-bodies that are popping up all over the place. The aftermarket parts have gotten better with more options, some are still being released after DC canned the XJ platform altogether.......proof that the XJ will be around for a long time and the daily driver crowd and the trailered rig crowd and everyone in between will still have something in common.
I enjoy trying new mods on my 15 year old rig and learning stuff from others that have pushed the uni-body envelope even further. There just ain't one size fits all here, and I for one am glad.
 
CRASH said:
I'm in the same league as SteinJeep!

You haven't told us a hundred times where you're from and why you moved to CA yet, so you still have a ways to go. But you're learning fast Grasshopper. ;)
 
CRASH said:
OK, I'm back from the salt mines.

OK, so now, for someone who has been in this sport for as long as Goat or myself (OMG, I can't believe I just compared Grandpa to my young, virile self.....

Not bad, young man.......still trying to keep up with the old man.

CRASH said:
My original RE long arm design has been in the rig since before RE introduced the TJ kit to the public. It worked, pretty well. There were compromises however. The crossmember hung 1.5" below the frame, the 6 bushings comprising the forward link mounts flexed like mad under braking and under torque loading, leading to a sloppy feeling on steep climbs. The bushings lasted maybe a year. And, the LCA mounts hung below the axle tube.

Too much bushing deflection is also a problem with a well flexing 4 link, and I also was uncomfortable with the slight (but very noticeable) axle wrap allowed by sloppy UCA bushings. Moving the LCA axle mounts up requires stiffer UCA mounts than the rubber bushings.....here comes the 3 link.

CRASH said:
.....you can't talk XJ suspension design without laying under your rig for about two hours and just puzzling over where the fawk you are going to fit stuff. I went through it all again, string and tape measure in hand....

Amen, brother!

CRASH said:
Second criteria was the crossmember COULD NOT hang below the frame rails. Period.

Ground clearance rules, as I've said so much it probably makes some people sick. Typical long arms suck...... :D



CRASH said:
Goat and I both ended up with three links. Two lowers that take impact stress and an upper that mainly serves as torque control. His upper is on the passenger side, and his links are mounted in more or less the factory locations on beefy mounts. The system has proven itself time and again, even in the fast stuff. But he wasn't quite happy. So he tweaked (and not just in the leather-hat-days sense ;) ). He had a bunch of dive under braking, so he moved the torque link a bit, and bingo, much better driveability..........Sometimes, just when you think the performance of a design couldn't be better, you get a fresh perspective when new kinds of terrain are encountered......or when you want to go stupid fast across the desert with your stroker-jockey buddies chasing you, and the trophy is a fresh pitcher of marguaritas.

Gotta have those marguaritas. :cheers:
My LCA frame mounts are 2.5" back and 1" down from the stock position, the UCA frame mount is 2" lower and 1" back, the LCA axle mounts are even with the axle tube, and the UCA axle mount is 10" higher than the lower mount. Like Andy said, I just raised the upper axle mount 2" and it made a big difference in the anti-dive.....much better. Let's don't be talking about tweaking and leather hat's, that's reserved for the campfire. :)

CRASH said:
I knew Goat had succesfully run a full set of Johnny Joints on his rig with no complaints except for the occasional tightening of a joint. I new I wanted a very solid, non-sloppy feeling so I went the same route, with the exception of the crossmember side of the UCA, which was so tight I needed to use a 1" heim because the overall width of the mount can be smaller.

Actually, I also use a heim joint on the frame end of the UCA, and JJ's everywhere else.....no rubber at all.
 
CRASH said:
OMG, this may be my longest post ever. I'm in the same league as SteinJeep!

Heah, I'm thinning down my posts. And I'm now Big Red, AKA Steinjeep. :laugh3: Good points Andy. You, Richard, FarmerMatt, ASHMAN, and other have made me proud to own an XJ and have contributed much to the limits that they are taken. It's not easy working with the unibody and other design factory limitations of the XJ. It has been done so much in the CJ, YJ, TJ, FJ40, Yota pickup, 4Runner, etc, but to start with an XJ and develop it to the level you and few like you have, then you have something. So when is all this URF stuff coming to the general public? I don't have lots of $$$ into my 91' and I like it that way, but a few more improvements wouldn't hurt. (I better cut the post off now before I type a few more paragraphs). :)
Troy
 
Big Red said:
Heah, I'm thinning down my posts. And I'm now Big Red, AKA Steinjeep. :laugh3: Good points Andy. You, Richard, FarmerMatt, ASHMAN, and other have made me proud to own an XJ and have contributed much to the limits that they are taken. It's not easy working with the unibody and other design factory limitations of the XJ. It has been done so much in the CJ, YJ, TJ, FJ40, Yota pickup, 4Runner, etc, but to start with an XJ and develop it to the level you and few like you have, then you have something. So when is all this URF stuff coming to the general public? I don't have lots of $$$ into my 91' and I like it that way, but a few more improvements wouldn't hurt. (I better cut the post off now before I type a few more paragraphs). :)
Troy

Dude, you brought this post back from the dead for that?
:laugh3: I guess if you're gonna revive a post, this would be a pretty good one.
Billy
 
JeepFreak21 said:
Dude, you brought this post back from the dead for that?
:laugh3: I guess if you're gonna revive a post, this would be a pretty good one.
Billy

Yeah, I was doing some searching and saw a reference to think link by Brett on the 3 link Andy has and saw his comment. It is a very good post and an interesting alternative to a standard 4 link front.
Troy
 
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