**UPDATED** HHO GAS....

[Ecomike]

or
someone show me the documented proof of increase in effciency and I will shut my mouth.

I already posted the links here below, and a summary quote below from one of the links on the prior research history of the technology. Did you follow it and read? I think not based on your comments so far.

Regarding your earlier post:

" Exactly, and if it's stoich, you're not using the hydrogen portion to the fullest benefit.

You'll be putting back together exactly what you've split apart to get energy.. energy you've lost (and then a lot) to split it apart.

Straight hydrogen allows you to lean out the fuel mixture, using less hydrocarbon fuel in the combustion."

I am sorry but this makes no sense at all. The Engine gets excess oxygen throughput, whether it is running lean or rich, it just gets more oxygen and less fuel when it runs lean. There is always about 5% (+/- 1%) excess O2 left coming out the tail pipe, so all the hydrogen gets burned either way, whether it started out as pure hydrogen or as HHO gas.

There is a nice chemical explanation in the old thread I posted the link to.

 

[Ecomike]

I used no plates, the revision will have plates in it spaced 1/4" apart, with one more on the negative side because it is my understanding this makes it work better. The current version very well may be boiling the water but I have blown no fuses. Friends of mine have plates in theirs that are off of the allthread with way tighter spacing than mine. I just wanted to get a starting point and then figure out what works best for my vehicle, so this is and will be a work in progress.

Sounds like your starting point worked fine!

Please keep me informed, feel free to PM me or post here any questions you have. I have some experience and patents in battery electrochemistry, electroplating, and a patent in electrochemistry, but I know enough, to know that there is still a lot even the experts do not know, that is still in the early research stages when it comes to electrochemistry, at least organic electrochemistry, but thats another story.

Seems I recall a 2:1 ratio for the gasses (2H and 1O) being involved in plate surface area optimization, but I would need to look it up to be sure which is which now in regards to which plate is + and - for the smaller plate. Perhaps you already traked that down.

I do know the shorter the plate gap the lower the energy losses to heat and the lower the operating voltage needed to split the water. You might want to experiment with a DC to DC converter to drop the voltage to about 2.5 to 3 volts (but that runs the cost and amps up, so you might use multiple cells, about 5 wired in series to drop the voltage per cell down to just under 3 volts per cell!!!!!!:wave1: To get the efficiency higher!!!!!

 

[swbooking]

I already posted the links here below, and a summary quote below from one of the links on the prior research history of the technology. Did you follow it and read? I think not based on your comments so far.

Meh. I'm over this. Pics of the setup please.

Regarding your earlier post:

" Exactly, and if it's stoich, you're not using the hydrogen portion to the fullest benefit.

You'll be putting back together exactly what you've split apart to get energy.. energy you've lost (and then a lot) to split it apart.

Straight hydrogen allows you to lean out the fuel mixture, using less hydrocarbon fuel in the combustion."

I am sorry but this makes no sense at all. The Engine gets excess oxygen throughput, whether it is running lean or rich, it just gets more oxygen and less fuel when it runs lean. There is always about 5% (+/- 1%) excess O2 left coming out the tail pipe, so all the hydrogen gets burned either way, whether it started out as pure hydrogen or as HHO gas.

There is a nice chemical explanation in the old thread I posted the link to.

I didnt post that, look at who your quoting before you assume

 

[Ecomike]

....

Sorry if I missed this or forget it already, but are the specs on your rig? Jeep, year, engine...etc?

Also what other vehicles, years, etc do your friends have where it is working?

Did any of them have O2 sensor or CEL problems after running it?

Obviously most of us are intersted in Jeeps, but what works on an 87 might have computer sensor issues with a 96. All I know is I read through a 20 page blog where the guys were using this and were also trying to force there systems to run a little leaner by dorking with the O2 sensor, and they were having problems doing it. Sounds like you got improved mileage with out touching the sensors or computer?

 

[Ecomike]

Meh. I'm over this. Pics of the setup please.
I didnt post that, look at who your quoting before you assume

:doh: A thousand apologies sir!

I miss quoted, it was M.Sage that I was replying to there!

Let's see, it's only 3 hours past my bed time, no wonder!hasta

 

[jeepman121]

Yeah, and so do car companies. You think they would overlook a $30 bottle of baking soda, water, and two electrical leads if it gave 50% better city mileage? No. They spend millions researching designs for better gas mileage.

Until there is some hard evidence showing exactly how it improves it, over a wide scale of time, these threads are pointless. They shouldn't even be in OEM Tech.

I would like to try it with a solar panel and a deep cycle battery, but I still don't think I would see even a 1% increase in gas mileage. HHO has been around for many years (30+) and yet there is still no hard evidence showing that it does infact increase gas mileage. Do it yourself, make a chart of it over 10 different fillups and then post a thread about it.

Actually most oil companies controll the auto industry and buy the rights to all the gas saving gadgets.

 

[M.Sage]

" Exactly, and if it's stoich, you're not using the hydrogen portion to the fullest benefit.

You'll be putting back together exactly what you've split apart to get energy.. energy you've lost (and then a lot) to split it apart.

Straight hydrogen allows you to lean out the fuel mixture, using less hydrocarbon fuel in the combustion."

I am sorry but this makes no sense at all. The Engine gets excess oxygen throughput, whether it is running lean or rich, it just gets more oxygen and less fuel when it runs lean. There is always about 5% (+/- 1%) excess O2 left coming out the tail pipe, so all the hydrogen gets burned either way, whether it started out as pure hydrogen or as HHO gas.

There is a nice chemical explanation in the old thread I posted the link to.

Actually, it makes sense if you understand engines.

If you inject only hydrogen, your engine controls will cut the amount of hydrocarbon fuel. Throttle position will stay the same as if you were using only hydrocarbon, the engine will run just as efficiently but on less gasoline or diesel.

I realize that there is an optimal amount of O2 to leave the tailpipe.

The big problem comes with these generators being powered by the vehicle itself. Alternators are on-demand, they only produce the amount of amperes needed to maintain voltage. As the amp load increases, so does the amount of torque from the engine to drive the alternator.

You're using chemical energy to get the electrical energy used to produce brown gas. With me so far?

Problem is that you'll never get back as much energy as you put in (let alone more than you put in), no matter how hard you try. That's impossible. Someone else already posted the second law of thermodynamics...

Even if you're generating it seperately on a "free" system like solar, brown gas isn't going to be as good as straight hydrogen. If you inject a fuel/oxygen mix that's already stoich, you won't get engine controls responding by leaning the hydrocarbon mix, you'll get them responding by simply reducing throttle opening. That's also bad for efficiency, as anyone who's driven a fuel-injected vehicle at high altitude (and understands what's going on) can tell you. Your pumping losses go up at lower throttle settings. More of your torque is going to go into pulling more vacuum instead of moving the vehicle forward.

This is one of the facts that the OEMs know, and one of the reasons they're going to leaner-running engines with computer-controlled throttles.

With straight hydrogen injection, you're replacing fuel with fuel. Hydrocarbon is being replaced by hydrogen and your engine will run at the same throttle setting, just with less fuel. So yes, you'll get a benefit on efficiency with hydrogen. With "brown gas", you're replacing fuel and oxygen with fuel and oxygen. Your engine will run at a lower throttle setting, and with these generators, you're putting more torque demand on the engine to drive the alternator.

Alternators don't just spin freely under load... The more load you put on them, the harder they are to turn. That is one of the basic truths that these generators ignore.

Actually most oil companies controll the auto industry and buy the rights to all the gas saving gadgets.

That's one of the funniest things I've heard today! ...and totally untrue. You should honestly see the lengths OEMs go to to increase efficiency while maintaining or increasing power.

The real impediments to high mileage cars are cost, reliability, emissions (what, you thought that great mileage and great emissions went hand in hand?) and the market. Nobody wants to drive something horribly slow...

 

[Mstrkage]

what would the affect of one of these be on a carbureted engine, i.e. no computer controls? And is it feasible the the brown's gas helps create a more efficient burn. I am curious only because of the debate. I wouldn't mind trying this on my 2.8, really what do I have to lose?

 

[jeepman121]

look up the pogue carb...if you think oil companies don't own the rights to gas saving devices. guy went from a broke inventor to running an oil filter company overnight.

 

[Bent]

look up the pogue carb...if you think oil companies don't own the rights to gas saving devices. guy went from a broke inventor to running an oil filter company overnight.

This one?
http://www.snopes.com/autos/business/carburetor.asp

EDIT:
To be fair to the tin foil hat crowd:
http://www.himacresearch.com/books/secret2.html

 

[falcon556]

look up the pogue carb...if you think oil companies don't own the rights to gas saving devices. guy went from a broke inventor to running an oil filter company overnight.

What happened is that the evil oil companies sent their black hooded, machine gun toting spec ops guys in black helicopters to the auto companies and stole the 200+mpg carburetors from their safe.
What most people don't know is that the auto companies sent their black hooded, machine gun toting spec ops guys in black helicopters to the oil companies and stole everything back.
And that's the rest of the story.

 

[Mstrkage]

Must love the conspiracy theories

 

[falcon556]

Must love the conspiracy theories

We live in the 21st century and we have access to the internet.
Anybody that actually invents the gadget that will benefit everybody can file for the invention and at the same time spread it on the net.
Once it is out on the net, you cannot put the genie back in the bottle.
I get tired of hearing that a company or agency can actually prevent info from getting out. I understand that some of those theories are about older times, however, the conspiracy theories continue in the present.

 

[Ecomike]

We live in the 21st century and we have access to the internet.
Anybody that actually invents the gadget that will benefit everybody can file for the invention and at the same time spread it on the net.
Once it is out on the net, you cannot put the genie back in the bottle.
I get tired of hearing that a company or agency can actually prevent info from getting out. I understand that some of those theories are about older times, however, the conspiracy theories continue in the present.

Good points, and you are correct, but you overlook part of the way patents work. If the patent is issued, one can buy the patent and then scare others away from practicing the patent. Doesn't always work but big money holding patents can scare many would be manufacturers away.

A lot of this stuff never gets to market because of the huge cost and know how involved in getting new products built and sold in a profitable self sustaining manner. A battle I have fought myself for 21 years now. No conspiracy involved here, just pure business economics and dynamics.

When it comes to cars and trucks it seems it must make it as an aftermarket gadget or race car item for years before Detroit adopts it. Even then if it is too costly (i.e. not 3 cents per car to add it), or if it does not add dazzle to help sell an overpriced gas guzzling beast, chances are it may remain an aftermarket add on for a very long time if not forever.

 

[lawsoncl]

I wonder if 15 amps at 12 volts is not boiling some of the water? I would think it would be more efficient with large flat plates, with a closer gap.

Now there's an interesting notion. That instead of actually producing any useable quantities of HHO, that it simply feeding steam or water vapor into the intake.

 

[Ecomike]

Actually, it makes sense if you understand engines.

If you inject only hydrogen, your engine controls will cut the amount of hydrocarbon fuel. Throttle position will stay the same as if you were using only hydrocarbon, the engine will run just as efficiently but on less gasoline or diesel.

Your looking at wrong. It will cut the hydrocabon fuel feed at idle either way. At other speeds and loads it will use less fuel.

It is all about burning the gasoline faster (by adding a little hydrogen gas), and more completely and thus getting more torque per stroke out of the same amount of fuel. So it takes less RPMs to deliver the needed torque, thus reducing the fuel used per stroke.

The big problem comes with these generators being powered by the vehicle itself. Alternators are on-demand, they only produce the amount of amperes needed to maintain voltage. As the amp load increases, so does the amount of torque from the engine to drive the alternator.

You're using chemical energy to get the electrical energy used to produce brown gas. With me so far?

Problem is that you'll never get back as much energy as you put in (let alone more than you put in), no matter how hard you try. That's impossible. Someone else already posted the second law of thermodynamics...

But it is possible to burn the gasoline more efficiently and thus increase the efficiency of the engine which does not violate the second law. It is not about making free fuel! It is about increasing the engine efficiency (which is pitiful in current ICE engines) by using a mix of two fuels that burn more efficiently than just everyday gasoline.

No it is not impossible. How many times do I have to say it is not the energy from the hydrogen being burned that increases the MPGs, it is the increased efficiency of the engine burning the gasoline (because the small hydrogen feed changes the combustion rate of the gasoline), by burning it faster and more completely, and that is what increases the MPGs! At least acording to the 1978 Los Alamos Research work done under the US DOE.

Even if you're generating it seperately on a "free" system like solar, brown gas isn't going to be as good as straight hydrogen. If you inject a fuel/oxygen mix that's already stoich, you won't get engine controls responding by leaning the hydrocarbon mix, you'll get them responding by simply reducing throttle opening. That's also bad for efficiency, as anyone who's driven a fuel-injected vehicle at high altitude (and understands what's going on) can tell you. Your pumping losses go up at lower throttle settings. More of your torque s going to go into pulling more vacuum instead of moving the vehicle forward.

I disagree, as the Browns gas is going to be 33% oxygen, already well mixed with the hydrogen, and no nitrogen, pure fuel and oxidizer!. There will also be traces of ozone in the browns gas. Think of browns gas as adding nitromethane, the nitro contains the oxygen, the methane the hydrogen.

The engine controls do not need to respond by leaning the fuel, now that I think more about what I read in the research abstracts.

With straight hydrogen injection, you're replacing fuel with fuel. Hydrocarbon is being replaced by hydrogen and your engine will run at the same throttle setting, just with less fuel. So yes, you'll get a benefit on efficiency with hydrogen. With "brown gas", you're replacing fuel and oxygen with fuel and oxygen. Your engine will run at a lower throttle setting, and with these generators, you're putting more torque demand on the engine to drive the alternator.

I disagree about the lower throttle setting, or at least about its implications. For one thing it is my understanding that the hydrogen feed is really very small compared to the gasoline feed, like about 1%, so it is just not significant enough of a change in relation to what you are describing for the problems you mentioned to happen. From what I have read it is the increased torque or power output from a more rapid, more complete burn, thanks to the very small amount of browns gas (hydrogen and oxygen) that yields the 35% increase in MPGs. Also, the engine vacuum won't care where it gets the Air / fuel mixture from.

You should honestly see the lengths OEMs go to to increase efficiency while maintaining or increasing power.

That is part of the problem, the market has been sold on power, not fuel economy. Just look at all the speed freak movies our kids have been watching the last 20 years. Never do you see the good guys win in a movie because everyone else ran out of gas!!!:banghead:

 

[Ecomike]

Now there's an interesting notion. That instead of actually producing any useable quantities of HHO, that it simply feeding steam or water vapor into the intake.

My God, somebody actually read what I said! :shocked:I am in shock, LOL!



I am curious as to what your take is on on the idea that very small amounts of it can significantly change the burn rate enough to boost the engine efficiency while it still burns 99% gasoline, with maybe 1% browns gas (which might also have some water vapor in it!!!)

I am seriously thinking of digging up a copy of the complete, 1978 research paper but it may be hard to get now.

 

[lrainman]

1995 Cherokee Sport = 4.0 with 146,565.8 miles, 5 speed, 231 TC, 4" Lift with drop brackets, 4:10 gears, 32x11.5 BFG AT, 15x7 AR wheels, home made front tube bumper with warn M8000.

This HHO unit was designed by myself and built with information gathered off the internet, it is temporarily installed in my XJ for testing purposes and then it will be a permanant fixture under my hood.

 

[snow580]

1995 Cherokee Sport = 4.0 with 146,565.8 miles, 5 speed, 231 TC, 4" Lift with drop brackets, 4:10 gears, 32x11.5 BFG AT, 15x7 AR wheels, home made front tube bumper with warn M8000.

This HHO unit was designed by myself and built with information gathered off the internet, it is temporarily installed in my XJ for testing purposes and then it will be a permanant fixture under my hood.

It looks good man! I am a believer in the hho and I will hopefully after the 4th is over get started on building one of these to....
Keep it up!

 

[goodburbon]

so you're just dumping water in there and connecting those power leads to the battery?