to swap or not to swap.....

[spinsession]

Talk to the MOG guys. They have the Mercedes diesels bolted to all sorts of trans configs. AX-15 may not be strong enough.

Did anyone reply to the Czech guy's question?

Some of the MOGS even came from the factory with divorced transmissions! You're right though, investigating the MOG community for other options would probably be a worthwhile endeavor.

Another option I looked into a bit is the Mercedes 300GD...otherwise know as the Gelandewagen, G-wagon, G, etc. A brief run of these shipped with the OM617 motor and came with a german trans and transfercase. From what I understand though, any of the G transmissions/transfercases (sometimes built as one unit) will bolt up to the OM617. Honestly though, if I got my hands on a G, my XJ's days would be numbered. My goal in swapping the Merc. into the XJ is to create a poor mans G or sorts. I'd rather have the rich mans G!

The main problem with the G stuff is availability (at least in the US). Like the 300D cars, the G's are entirely rebuildable. There's not a disposable part on the entire vehicle, so they rarely wind up in the junkyard. Something like 80% of the W123 bodied Mercedes cars are still on the road! I'd bet the percentage of G's on the road are even higher due to their rarity and their "enthusiast" (not to mention wealthy) owners.

The AX-15's, on the other hand, are readily available and are a dime a dozen. Even if it's not strong enough, you can swap it out a dozen times for the price of one german tranny (assuming you could find one somewhere). Also, if we figure out how to bolt this to an AX-15 there is also the NV3550 option that bolts up the same way.

I'll try to do some digging on the MOG forums...

Anyone else know about MOGS?

 

[spinsession]

So as I see I have the same problem as you guys, cause I can not buy adapter plate here and I not very sure about a clutch neither... I do not know if to use everything from mercedes (flywheel and the rest) and put the jeep clutch disk in or use everything jeep... sould be probably better to use flywheel from mercedes (because the starter)... :read:

I certainly can't give you a definitive answer on this, but if it was me I think I'd try to retain to Mercedes flywheel for the reason that you mention. The starter on the Mercedes is HUGE. The solenoid alone is about the size of the XJ's whole starter. I have serious doubts whether the XJ starter would turn this motor over fast enough to fire. You might get away with a Mean Green starter though... Another reason to retain the Mercedes flywheel is that it is balanced with the crankshaft as a complete unit (not neutral l balanced). 4x4labs was working on a Mercedes adapter plate (have been for about 3-4 years) and they where having severe vibration problems after swapping flywheels. Like I said though, my answer is certainly not definitive. All my BS is purely academic. I would value the opinion of those with hands-on experience more.

I think that the possinbility to use a mercedes trans is rot, because we would have to work it up how to put it together with NP transfer-case, it means another crossbar unerneath and problems with driving shafts and balance...

I'm not sure about the Czech Republic, but in the US driveline shops are plentiful. Jeep guys have custom length driveshafts created and balanced all the time. To me, I see building a second crossmember being much easier than building adapter plates and bushings. I think that a driveline shop would have no problem building a 6" driveshaft to connect the Merc. tranny to any divorced t-case. I don't see either of these objections as being "deal breakers." Other opinions on this?

 

[carnuck]

Do a remote Dana/Spicer 20 tcase. It's about the smallest one out there.

 

[spelius]

I still did not do measurements because I am finishing university here and I do not have a time now, but I´m thinking of it most of the day... It´s a couple of ways how to make it works. One is to use mercedes clutch (all parts - flywheel, pressure plate and clutch disc) but merc clutch disc has smaller inside diameter than ax-15. We can fix it in two ways - use mercedes disc and overpress the inside ring, what is probably not the best idea, bacause there is a lot of pressure on it and it´s necessary to have it perfectly balanced (what could be a problem for long use)... and the other is to use jeep clutch disc, which is much bigger and make it smaller (not very sure if it´s possible?)

I think that using adapter plate ( or similar) from seriestrek.com does not really help us, because a starter, which is huge and is fixed on engine mount exactly oposite way than jeep and how _spinsession_ said - another problems with flywheel balance...

My plan was to cut mercedes tranny flange and weld a thin plate for ax-15 and screw it together... need to have it in side and top level... difficult but could be all right..

Than I read about oil pan and not enough clearence for front axle... another trouble... I was checking all mercedes which has the same engine including g-wagons and none of it has oil pan turned 180 degree, so we can not use this... I do not want to cut floor or do 8" lift...

So what now? I did not want to use merc tranny and jeep transfer case because of driveshafts and kept thinking different way... but I forgot that could be cut or extended :wave1:... this idea mercedes tranny could be perfect for engine possition as well, because mercedes one is smaller and could be lifted in tunnel up what could save couple of inches for axle clearence... and could be designed for 300 td torque as well... only trouble is, that I do not have manual merc tranny but automatic...

this is a bloody good idea mates...:guitar: GREAT IDEA AT ALL !!!

could not be a problem to make an adapter plate for mercedes gearbox and selec-trac... this could be a peace of cake for my mates... need to find a manual gearbox now :rof:

btw: G-wagon 300 GD is exactly the same engine as 300 TD, only bigger turbo

 

[tayman]

ok... I had some thoughts... there is really good information flowing here...

What is the length of the Merc. tranny as compared to the AX-15? not that length matters a whole lot, but I think that we could do the divorced transfer case idea pretty simply! what is the output like on the Merc. tranny? is it a flange? a U-joint? Splines? if it is a flange or a U-joint, we can get a stubby driveshaft (like mentioned above) and fab up a beefy crossmember for the T-case. I think that would be the most difficult part of the process... Fabbing a crossmember which would be able to withstand the torque of hard acceleration and pounding coming from wheeling.

Spin Session. Can you get a measurement of how tall the Merc. Engine (oilpan basically) is compares to the 4.0? if they are similar within an inch or two, than this idea is looking VERY feesable!

 

[tayman]

oh, forgot to mention in that las post.....

a friend of mine looked up torque specs on the Merc 917. it pumps out ~Ft/lbs at 2500rpm's I think... (this was a while ago). This is pretty similar to the 4.0's ~170, but the 4.0's comes at 4500rpm's I think... horsepower, on the other hand...
917: 130
4.0:177 (non high output.)

I don't think those are exact numbers, but they're close... I did it all from memory

 

[spinsession]

Sorry guys, I've been slacking on the measurements. We got a bunch of snow and I didn't feel like getting all bundled up and heading out to the garage.

I did, however, find some pictures that I came across a few years ago of an OM617 in an MJ. Does anyone know how to attach pictures to this thread? When I click the attach picture button it asks for a URL. ??? If we really can't attach pictures, does somebody want to host them? I'll e-mail them over so that they can be shared with everybody. The pictures will shed some light on the oil pan issue.

I had planned on taking a bunch of pictures of the Mercedes tranny and the AX-15 side by side as well as the Mercedes engine compartment, the tailshaft, the engine mounts, etc. to share them with everybody. This is going to suck if we can't add pictures. I've never seen a forum that you couldn't post pictures on (I just joined here the other day after discovering this thread). There has to be a way. Somebody help this newbie out here.

 

[tayman]

you need to host them on a website such as photobucket.com. from there you copy the "image location" url. That's what you put in the box. send them to me if you want, and I'll post them up. PM me for my e-mail address...

 

[spinsession]

Here's some irony! The Mercedes MJ that I found a few years ago is on this site! No need to host the pics.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57574&highlight=Mercedes+MJ

Some other threads on this topic:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=925437&highlight=Mercedes+MJ

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=939076&highlight=Mercedes+MJ

This is what's frustrating to me. EVERYONE thinks that this conversion is a good idea, but very few actually follow it through to completion. I've read about this on so many different forums over the past 4-5 years that I can't believe we don't see Merc. XJ's everywhere. There's got to be a catch.

 

[spinsession]

Found this in one of the other threads. This is probably the most complete description I've seen yet.

I am using the jeep 5 speed trans with my MB 300-turbo conversion as well as a 240d flywheel and housing. I removed the housing from the AX5 trans and using a 3/4 in. plate between the trans and clutch housing, was able to get the proper stack height. A Chevy S10 clutch disk and a custom bushing in the end of the crank aloud the use of the jeep throughout bearing. The trans is mounted in the stock location and there is enough room to mount electric fans. The only problem is the A/C compressor has to be relocated because of the steering box.
I would like to start another project using a 6.2/6.5. I am leisurely looking for a complete engine.

Its 4x4, 4.10 gears and 32" tires with stock axles for now. it had a blown 4 cly when I got it Changed the radiator and using electric fans. I installed a 6" lift kit and used the longest pitman arm that Rusty's had and extended it another 1.5". I used Rusty's track arm and bracket and extended the bracket to the same lenght as the pitman arm. I also cut the track rod and made the "Z" in the opposite direction. I have pictures but haven't yet been sucsessful in downloading. I used the stock engine frame mounts but mounted the rubber mounts under the frame mounts. I have 1/2" clearance between the turbo and the frame, and the same between the injection pume and frame. the stock aircleaner fits but I cutoff the intake horn because it was too close the the battery. i mounted the stock MB oil cooler behind the bumper under the radiator and made hoses instead of the metal lines. I used the MB power steering and made adapter fittings. I used the jeep throttle cable and change some of the linkage to make it work. I found a 12v pressuer/vacuum valve and used the coil wire for activation for engine shutdown. The valve is small, 2x3, so you can miss it easy. I have 80k miles on it have just had my first problem. I took the trans out today and found a missing spring in the stock Chevy S10 clutch disk so I will be looking for a disk without springs. No hot spots in the flyweel and pressure plate.

 

[tayman]

yeah, I've seen all those... The guy with the MJ only had 3" of lift, and the weight of the engine brought him down to 2"... BUT his MJ is 2wd... meaning he has no pumpkin... giving him the ability to NOT lift 8"... I've had a couple PM's back and forth with him... He DOES NOT have a t-case. He just swapped the diesel in, and kept it 2WD. so what I'm saying is... His problems were easier to solve.

Here are my PM's with him... I hope he doesn't mind.

what did you do for motor mounts? how hard were they to fab?


actually, I used the factory mercedes rubber cup mounts, though I was not completely pleased with them. I built a frame-mounted base to set the mounts (they set horizontal and bolt down) and fabbed motor brackets from 3/8"x2" flat stock, bent to desired "s" shape, and reinforced with 1" square stock. When I redo the project, I will start again from scratch with the motor mounts.

I guess that means I should do something else doesn't it...

After some consideration, I think I would try to use the motor mount setup that came on the 4.0. I'd still have to fab motor brackets, but the jeep mounts, assuming they can hold the extra weight of the diesel and live through the vibration, would give better lateral control over the motor. With the cups, the motor was able to shift side to side, and front to rear about 3/4 inch, and without making limiting straps, I was always afraid that a minor collision or hard braking scenario would allow the fan to contact the radiator if the mounts failed. Things were kinda tight in there!

Well I want to be able to wheel it... so I'll have to do something pretty beefy. How much more does the diesel weigh than the 4.0?

I haven't had the chance to kick a 4.0 around on the floor, so I couldn't really get a good idea on the weight difference. The MJ I played with was originally a four banger. I can say, though, that 3" lift springs in the front only amounted for </= 2" of lift after the diesel was put it! Just enough to level the truck. The 3.0 merc diesel is definately heavier. Too heavy? I don't believe so. I definately won't skimp on the mounts for sure! The xtra weight of the 3.0 definately made the 3" springs ride good, with factory shocks. It really was a comfy truck, to my surprise. The springs came off a xj with the 4.0, and it was pretty rigid. how much extra weight over the front axle would cause about an inch of suspension squat? Got a few feed bags you can throw on the hood for experimental purposes? lol.

 

[tayman]

ok... didn't see those! those are GREAT!!!! did you try PMing him? we need him to tune on here so we can bounce questions off of him!!!!!

 

[spelius]

all my pictures ready on www.spelius.com

(download it for full screen)

 

[spinsession]

yeah, I've seen all those... The guy with the MJ only had 3" of lift, and the weight of the engine brought him down to 2"...

Crap! I didn't realize that he had 2-3" of lift on that MJ. I thought that he was sitting at stock height. He's pretty short on clearance even on that 2wd axle beam. I've been under the (false) impression that you could run this motor no problem with the 2wd axle and that you only needed to lift to clear the pumpkin.

...I don't know what a 4.0L weighs off-hand, but the OM617 is right around 600lbs.

 

[iluv83vettes]

that is about how much the 4.0 weighs

 

[tayman]

550lbs dry.

 

[tayman]

so after looking over those PM's again, he origionally had a 4-banger... meaning that it was designed for a lighter engine than the 4.0. so seeing that the 4.0 and the Merc. weigh in pretty similarly, the biggest thing we need to worry about now is how much taller the merc is than the 4.0. Spinsession, that's all you! You have them both!

 

[tayman]

Hey SpinSession, have you taken those measurements yet??? Hey, Spelius... What are the specs on what you did?

 

[spelius]

still waiting for engine so can not do measurements... I did a lot of talking with mercedes guy who did many expedition G-wagons and he told me, that the best way how to make it work is to forgot manual jeep tranny AX-15 and build AUTOMATIC mercedes tranny in. No clutch problems, no adapter plate between engine and gear box, no anything... changing gear by a little scroll bar, two cords - one for kickdown and the other for reversing lights.
It seems much easier...

I bought old AW4 for the rear ring and inside shaft which I am gonna use . I have a plan to take driveshaft holder out of automatic merc gearbox and replace it by jeep ring (so I can put a transfer-case on) and do a little adapter between merced auto shaft and jeep transfer-case inside shaft. This adapter will be the inside shaft from AW4 with cutting hole for auto mercedes gearbbox shaft.
Than I can do real measurement to keep front and rear drive shaft distance, put it little bit higher for front axle clearence and screw it down to jeep cross bar, using the anti-vibration mounting plate from AX-15. Than I use mercedes engine mounts and need to create other sides for this mounts in jeep underhood area what yould not be so complicated...

what do you think?
srry for my english, I am trying to describe it as good as I can :spin1:

 

[tayman]

so currently you have no transfer case? and your idea is to somehow use the internals from the AW4 in the mercedes transmission? is your plan to bolt the transfer case to the end of the transmission, or directly to the crossmember?