steering issues.

[rockclimber]

So I just finshed my new steering and trackbar setup.

1.5"x.250 wall DOM
Clayton frameside bracket
Ruffstuff axle side bracket
3/4" Ruffstuff Heims misaligned to 5/8" on steering
1 7/8"x3/4" heim with wide misalignment for the trackbar (clayton bracket is 2.5")

at ride height the trackbar and drag link are damn near perfect. they are within a 1/4" of each other in length (from centering the steering wheel) and from my angle finder they are less than 1* off.

the angle of the picture makes it hard to tell, but the tabs for the draglink are vertical, and the TB/DL angle is almost dead on.

the problem I am running into is that I am getting some tie rod roll through the steering making it look like this

the DL tabs have rolled forwards, making the tie-rod and drag link move out of parallel, only sligtly, about 2* overall, but it was enough to cause some serious death wobble on my first test run.

a side shot for comparison

and just so there isn't any confusion, the Balljoints are new, all the heims are new, the toe was set at 1/8" in.

any suggestions? anyone here running steering like this? how did you get around any tie-rod roll?

oh and pay no attention to that boogered weld :firedevil

 

[Lowrange2]

For starters take the misallignment spacers off the ends of the tie rod. They are serving no purpose there. That will help some.

Someone makes an anti-tierod roll bushing but I can't remember who. (Edit: The WWW say's JCR has something for TREs.)

The closer you could have got that heim to the tie rod the better.

I never have understood why anyone would want that steering set-up. It seems so problematic.

 

[rockclimber]

For starters take the misallignment spacers off the ends of the tie rod. They are serving no purpose there. That will help some

yea, thats one thing I thought of. I am not really excited about drilling my knuckles out to 3/4" though.

Someone makes an anti-tierod roll bushing but I can't remember who. (Edit: The WWW say's JCR has something for TREs.)

yea I thought about that as well, I am hunting around for one that will fit a heim.

The closer you could have got that heim to the tie rod the better.

any closer and it would have thrown my trackbar/DL angles way off.

I never have understood why anyone would want that steering set-up. It seems so problematic.

I have not heard/nor seen anyone have these problems with a setup like this. and coming from a Krusty's pos steering conversion, this should be a lot better.

thanks.

 

[cracker]

Close.....

I am NEVER a fan of running a rod end at the pitman arm. Good drop out of the axle will usually exceed the range of the rod end and bend the bolt/break the alignment spacers. Others have done this but I am not comfortable with this ESPECIALLY when not using a true high steer set up. I am a HUGE fan of the 1 ton high angle TRE at the Pitman arm:

This is the only way I would consider running a rod-end at the pitman arm:

Just like LowRange2 said, the high misalignment washers are NOT great on the tie rod ends. Drill out the knuckles to the same bore the rod ends are (probably 3/4") and get safety washers the same size and sandwich the rod end between two washers and tighten it up. Make sure you get fine thread bolts long enough to drill out and place a cotter pin in there.

Safety washers:

The booger weld does worry me. The penetration seems minimal. that is a significant and critical point of your steering and should it break the vehicle could loose control and hurt yourself or even worse......


The same bracket (with the booger welds) where the drag link intersects with the tie rod is way too tall. It needs to be as short as possible to minimize the inherent 'dead spot' with an inverted T steering set up. Right now it has too much travel back and forth because of the height of that bracket and the high-misalignment washers at the knuckles. I would guess it is probably not even drivable at any speed. I also suggest putting cotter pins in the bolt that retains that rod end.


Also, like in the second picture, the bracket on the tie rod needs to be pointed forward and not perfectly vertical to minimize some of that inherent 'dead spot'.

 

[rockclimber]

Close.....

I am NEVER a fan of running a rod end at the pitman arm. Good drop out of the axle will usually exceed the range of the rod end and bend the bolt/break the alignment spacers. Others have done this but I am not comfortable with this ESPECIALLY when not using a true high steer set up. I am a HUGE fan of the 1 ton high angle TRE at the Pitman arm:

cool, I think I will go this route. I can get it and an insert from ruffstuff.

also, I drilled my pitman arm out to 5/8" for the heim, will I be able to ream it for the new TRE or do I need to go with a new arm?

Just like LowRange2 said, the high misalignment washers are NOT great on the tie rod ends. Drill out the knuckles to the same bore the rod ends are (probably 3/4") and get safety washers the same size and sandwich the rod end between two washers and tighten it up. Make sure you get fine thread bolts long enough to drill out and place a cotter pin in there.

OK, I will ditch the misalignment spacers and drill out the knuckles. I was also planning on getting longer bolts and drilling them for a cotter pin, but if I ditch the misalignment spacers the ones I have now will be long enough.

Safety washers:

Yep, I have 4 left from a set of 6 that ruffstuff sells.

The booger weld does worry me. The penetration seems minimal. that is a significant and critical point of your steering and should it break the vehicle could loose control and hurt yourself or even worse......

that weld looks boogered because I ran 2 beads on that side, I also ran a third bead on the inside of the bracket. there is plenty of penetration.

The same bracket (with the booger welds) where the drag link intersects with the tie rod is way too tall. It needs to be as short as possible to minimize the inherent 'dead spot' with an inverted T steering set up. Right now it has too much travel back and forth because of the height of that bracket and the high-misalignment washers at the knuckles. I would guess it is probably not even drivable at any speed. I also suggest putting cotter pins in the bolt that retains that rod end.

its good up to about 45, then I get DW when I hit any kind of bump. I will cut that bracket down some.

and I was planning on grabbing a longer bolt for that rod end, I thought I had a 3" bolt, but it was only 2.5", not quite long enough.

Also, like in the second picture, the bracket on the tie rod needs to be pointed forward and not perfectly vertical to minimize some of that inherent 'dead spot'.

good to know. I will set the toe with the bracket off, and set it at an angle.

 

[cracker]

In regards to the pitman arm, I do not recall. You will have to caliper the TRE once you get it and see. Many companies make a bung that you can use to slide in your drag link to make it work.

Cut that bracket so low that the rod end almost touches the tie rod. The lowest point possible to minimize the 'dead spot'.

BTW, there will always be a dead spot with inverted T steering.

 

[rockclimber]

In regards to the pitman arm, I do not reyou will have to caliper the TRE once you get it. Many companies make a bung that you can use to slide in your drag link to make it work.

I just got off the phone with ruffstuff, he told it is a 3/4" taper, so a 5/8" hole will work. any bigger and they can sell a tapered hole.

Cut that bracket so low that the rod end almost touches the tie rod. The lowest point possible to minimize the 'dead spot'.

will do. I am not sure what to do about my TB/DL angle, but I think the TRE will help with that some.

BTW, there will always be a dead spot with inverted T steering.

yea, I have been living with it for 3 years with my Krusty's kit, its not that bad.


Thanks for the advice.:cheers:

 

[cracker]

no problem.

Don't worry about the angle so much right now. If they are close you usually don't have bump steer.

I will post a pic of mine if I can take a pic with anydaylight left.

 

[rockclimber]

no problem.

Don't worry about the angle so much right now. If they are close you usually don't have bump steer.

I will post a pic of mine if I can take a pic with anydaylight left.

yea, I am not too worried about the angle....

but it was so perfect:bawl:

I'd rather deal with the vibes first, I can always adjust the frame side TB bracket in the future to address the angle.

 

[cracker]

yea, I am not too worried about the angle....

but it was so perfect:bawl:

I'd rather deal with the vibes first, I can always adjust the frame side TB bracket in the future to address the angle.

Here is mine. Works great in the big rocks, the high speed stuff in the desert, the parking lot, and at 80 on the freeway.

I usually set up the track bar bracket last and make it to the right height.

 

[eflores]

Looks at the diff cover and thinks to ones self with that much caster it will always drive strait.....lol pro rock axle? And FYI the hydro assist takes a lot of the yuk out of inverted t steering, covers up dw like crazy and generally solves a lot of issues lol

 

[Lowrange2]

Here is mine. Works great in the big rocks, the high speed stuff in the desert, the parking lot, and at 80 on the freeway.

I usually set up the track bar bracket last and make it to the right height.

I was about to say... That cylindrical white thing that says PSC on it helps a LOT with your dead spot.

Flores beat me to by some time.

 

[ktm racer 419]

surprised nobody mentioned this.

but the tabs on your tie rod that the drag link mounts to are hella tall. the shorter you make those the less the tie rod will want to twist.

id start by cutting them down and putting some prettier welds on there.

also, im not sure if this is feasable by the pics, but that along with mounting the tie rod over the knuckle will put the drag link more parralel making the tie rod roll less extreme when turning.


i run the generic inverted t with one ton tie rod ends and love it.

 

[rockclimber]

surprised nobody mentioned this.

but the tabs on your tie rod that the drag link mounts to are hella tall. the shorter you make those the less the tie rod will want to twist.

id start by cutting them down and putting some prettier welds on there.

also, im not sure if this is feasable by the pics, but that along with mounting the tie rod over the knuckle will put the drag link more parralel making the tie rod roll less extreme when turning.


i run the generic inverted t with one ton tie rod ends and love it.

cracker mentioned those tabs. I am actually headed to the garage to make that happen.

I trimmed as much of the coil bucket and sway bar mount back as possible, but the tie rod would hit on the passenger side mounted OTK. possibly without the misalignment spacers It'll fit better.

will give it a shot, I'd love the clearance as well.

Assist is in the plan, but not in the budget just yet.

 

[cracker]

I was about to say... That cylindrical white thing that says PSC on it helps a LOT with your dead spot.

It does help a little but I have driven the same steering set up (on my 44) for the past 2 years without a ram issue free.

 

[Lowrange2]

surprised nobody mentioned this.

but the tabs on your tie rod that the drag link mounts to are hella tall. the shorter you make those the less the tie rod will want to twist.

id start by cutting them down and putting some prettier welds on there.

also, im not sure if this is feasable by the pics, but that along with mounting the tie rod over the knuckle will put the drag link more parralel making the tie rod roll less extreme when turning.


i run the generic inverted t with one ton tie rod ends and love it.

Just sayin...

The closer you could have got that heim to the tie rod the better.

The same bracket (with the booger welds) where the drag link intersects with the tie rod is way too tall. It needs to be as short as possible to minimize the inherent 'dead spot' with an inverted T steering set up.

I run full cross over steering. The only issue I see with it is that the drag link becomes so much longer than the tracbar.

Cracker, what makes you say you don't like running a heim at the pitman arm especially on a true high steer setup? I certainly understand the over travel issue. If the drag link is near horizontal do you think it would survive. I've checked in the past and I haven't been able to simulate mine over extending but I'm sure there's times on the trail that it could be doing it without my knowledge. The limit straps should be stoping it before it gets that far. Should I re-evaluated my heim joint there? I do like that pitman arm but it doesn't have enough drop to work with my current angles.

 

[ktm racer 419]

Just sayin...

.

i never learned how to read

 

[cracker]

Cracker, what makes you say you don't like running a heim at the pitman arm especially on a true high steer setup? I certainly understand the over travel issue. If the drag link is near horizontal do you think it would survive. I've checked in the past and I haven't been able to simulate mine over extending but I'm sure there's times on the trail that it could be doing it without my knowledge. The limit straps should be stoping it before it gets that far. Should I re-evaluated my heim joint there? I do like that pitman arm but it doesn't have enough drop to work with my current angles.

You misread it. I said when especially when NOT running high steer.

I am NEVER a fan of running a rod end at the pitman arm. Good drop out of the axle will usually exceed the range of the rod end and bend the bolt/break the alignment spacers. Others have done this but I am not comfortable with this ESPECIALLY when not using a true high steer set up.

True high steer set ups generally are closer to being flat when the suspension is normal on flat ground so when they do drop out you will notice you have more usable range. Rockclimber will exceed his usable range of the rod end when he drops out.

My suggestion is to unbolt your axle side drag link and let it hang down. Measure that distance it drops and calculate how much your rig will flex down until you hit your limit strap. If the limit strap hits before the rod end bottoms out you should be ok. I am also not a fan of the size of the bolt that is used to retain the rod end on the pitman arm and that it is single shear. The rod end with the high misalignment spacers stack height can be quite tall and a 1/2" bolt worries me as I have seen them bend that way in the past. The Genright option above is a good solution for that problem.

 

[Lowrange2]

Lol, Apparently I never learned to read either.


I have another pitman arm that I have modified to be double shear that'll use a 5/8's bolt. Have yet to install it tho.

 

[rockclimber]

Revision II

needs freeway testing, but was good up to 50mph.

much less tierod roll, still a small amount. waiting on the 1 ton TRE to arrive.

probably going to run a stabilizer as well