Sick People!

[Led]

I love the way peaple are always so quick to ban something that has no effect on them(say an H2) but then will cry like a baby when step 2 comes(say any car that doesn't get 25 mpg). Remember every time we pass a new law or come up with a new regulation we are signing away another chunk of our fredom. There was a time in this country not so long ago we didn't need to have state ID,no drinking age,and you could buy a tommy gun at the local hardware store. Have all the new laws set in place made this a better country???? thats a whole other debate.
Led

 

[XJJPR]

Actually Mark, this is exactly how the poorly equipped Revolutionary Army defeated the British military- which at the time was the strongest in the world. The American forces fought a guerilla style war, attacking the ranks of red-coated British soldiers who would stand shoulder to shoulder then disappearing back into the civilian population. You guys keep crying foul at the ELF’s tactics, but this the same type of thing that brought BIG change to the world.

The ELF's tactics are FAR from those of the who defeated the British.

The ELF says it's there to help the envoirment, but your argument seems to be they are against burning to much gas, ie waste. A lot of the slogans on the H2s were related towards polution. Yes, buring gas makes polution however, we all know now they did create more polution with their so called demonstration. So how can we look at this so called demonstration as a way to get the word out that big trucks polute the earth. All it has shown is there are a bunch of kids, new video just released, burning a family owned business to the ground.

This act of terror vandalism is only going to make it more expensive for business to operate. Yes it will even affect you, because insurance rates are going thru the roof already in this industry this will create even higher ones. For an example, my insurance this year has gone up 5 times what it was last year. And where do you think I'm going to make that difference up? It will have little to NO affect on how a H2 driver is going to use that truck.

I don't think the effect of how much oil we use or save will ever be answered. I'm not so sure it is a bad thing to have a resorce that drives the world economy as oil does today.

No matter what side you may simpithize with, the final thing is the ELF, if they really want to help the Earth, they need to find better ways to demonstate to show their veiws than the ones they used at the H2 dealer. Because all I see from this is a out of controlled group of thugs, not an Enviormental Group tring to save the earth. I trully beleive this has done more harm to the ELFs reputation and cause than good. It's not like they just saved 50 Dolphins from dying, ie. something good.

mark

 

[Scott Mac]

Actually there is an extremely viable short term solution- quit driving gas-guzzlers! This is solution every American motorist can participate in! I haven’t heard any arguments supporting why we should be driving gas guzzlers other than “we can because we are the world’s superpower”.

It doesn’t involve any sacrifice. I still have my gas guzzling XJ, it just remains parked unless I am going to use it for what it is intended. I am not suggesting that everybody trade in their Cherokees for Subarus. Being fuel-wise does not require driving an econobox. I have a 40 mpg motorcycle that I use for a daily driver that is faster and better handling than 95% of the cars on the road.

Some of the more closed-minded participants in this debate seem to think that I am some kind of tree hugger. There is much more at stake here than the environment.

This is taken from the U.S. Department of Energy’s website:

“Reducing the transportation sector's reliance on oil is clearly the key to improving our nation's energy security.
{snip}
In the current situation, the United States has little control over oil supply disruptions and oil price fluctuations. The necessity of maintaining a stable supply of imported oil imposes foreign policy constraints, and in times of crisis, forces the U.S. military into action.”

http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/energy_security.html

You people with children should be especially concerned. We will run out of cheap domestic sources of oil in their lifetime. How safe do you think their world will be when a nuclear-armed superpower that has an economy centered on cheap oil has to rely upon the rest of the world for it? Please note that the largest percentage of proven oil reserves is in the Middle East, an area that already breeds gruesomely effective terrorists. These terrorists are inflamed by a US foreign policy that revolves around keeping their oil available to us. They are also financed by an economy that gets a large percentage of its revenue from oil sales to the United States. I see an endless cycle here that centers on the average American citizen’s unwillingness to make a small sacrifice to help the nation’s security.

My point is that the majority of Americans are completly content with running our oils supplies dry before we need to find a viable alternative fuel. Yes there is research being done right now. But the urgency isn't there and will not be there till the last drop oil is pumped from the earth

And right now, the only way to reduce our dependance on Middle East oil is to drill the untapped fields within' our own boundries.

 

[TLange]

"C’mon people, do you really think that the earth’s oil reserves will last forever? What purpose does it serve to have rich, materialistic people driving 6000 pound SUVs 10~15, 000 miles a year on paved roads? I know, it’s the American Way of Life. Unfortunately, the American Way of Life has become rooted in consumerism. We as a nation are living like there is no tomorrow, consuming the largest share of the world’s resources while at the same time having the largest consumer debt and smallest individual savings rate of any industrialized country."

I fully agree with this part of what you wrote. It's right after that things get out of hand.

1) A true patriot believes in our laws and would not support a criminal act such as what ELF did. They broke the law and will be punished accourding to our Justice System if caught and convicted.

2) A true patriot understands that America is about free enterprise. The cost of gas will raise as it becomes less available. That's when you will see more afternative fueled vehicles on the road and fewer vehicles like the H2. Yes I love my children and look forward to time when they can drive a fuel cell powered (or some other technology) vehicle.

3) A true patriot knows that America is about free speech. He/she should thank god that he/she can even have an opinion such as yours and live.

 

[Scott Mac]

Nobody believes they will last forever. The problem is that there's only a small percentage that actually care. And those who don't care have faith that there will be a viable alternative when the oil does run dry.

 

[Kejtar]

I skimmed through this whole thread and I have couple points to make myself (and I might repeat some things that were said).....

1. Being green concious doesn't mean that I have to drive a golf cart.... There is more to environment protection then gasoline usage. It includes recycling, polluting, not dropping cigarette butts on the ground and so on.... I know couple greenies that are almsot extremists in their beliefs and I can tell you that they don't all recycle, they tend to use up an extensive amount of non bio degreadable products and so on.... IMHO if one is making such statements as that group does, they should lead by example!

2. The amount of environmental damage that they have caused with their display is horrendous! The spilled/bourned gasoline, oils, plastics fumes, paint fumes and so on.... Also half of that stuff will probably make it to the ocean as it hit the storm drains!!! so they did a lot of harm and in my opinion (I'm kind of green in certain respects myself, as I think all of us should be)

3. Such actions should be labeled as vandalism and terrorism and any inteded messages that they are meant to carry should be ignored as otherwise doing so would encourage them to do more due to attention received!

4. Greenies should work with others..... There was a series of articles published a while back about impact of the off road traffic onto the environment. I have contacted the author of such article (I used a different email address then normal in case I get slammed with greenie spam) and I tried to open dialagoue which would be beneficial for both sides (kind of you educated us we will educatue you and we can work towards doing some good). I was pretty much told that their research is 100% guaranteed to be right (it talked about how the dust raised from driving on the dirt road negatively impacts the environment) and they are not interested in hearing any other opinions.... That's wrong!! This comes down in my opinion to the point that there is a war/conflict that lasts for ever as people are in it for the sake of the fighting and nothing else!!!

Kejtar

 

[Backdraft]

werd!!



Mike

 

[BrianJr]

ELF is, pure and simple, an international environmental preservation group that believes violence is a reasonable tool to raise public awareness and to protect the environment. Even if this nation switched to a completely oil-free economy tomorrow they would still be performing acts of violence to protest genetic engineering, habitat destruction, etc. Any attempt to portray ELF as a organization whose goals are to patriotically reduce US dependence on foreign oil is simply incorrect.

To compare these 'demonstrations' to the Boston Tea Party is ridiculous. The colonists had no legal way to protest their government's actions. That was the whole point. The colonists were destroying property because there was no legal way for them to challenge the government's policies regarding that property (in that case taxes). That simply is not true today. Each citizen has a tremendous amount of freedom to shape the policies of the government. In fact, environmentalists have exercised considerable influence on all of western civilization - without resorting to violence.

The argument that no one was hurt, that only property was damaged, is a poor attempt to justify acts that are not justifiable. When you destroy a business's property your are jeopardizing the livelihoods of the people that work there. Maybe Handlebars doesn't mind being homeless but most people do. I certainly would not want to loose my job unexpectedly and turn my family's lives on end so some environmental group could make a political statement. Shame on ELF for placing their own political goals above the livelihood of their fellow citizens.

Too further lower my opinion of ELF - their style of 'protest' is completely ineffective. They want fewer H2's to be sold - so they destroy a bunch of them. They just insured that (a) new H2's are manufactured to replace those lost and (b) bought more TV ad time then the manufacturer could have ever afforded. The people buying H2's already know these vehicles are terrible for the economy - that's they whole point! People buy these H2's to say "Look, I'm so successful/rich that I can afford this completely impractical vehicle that requires its own refueling station". If anything this will simply insure that the few wealthy people who have never seen an H2 now get a chance to learn about these gas guzzlers - congratulations on a job well done.

These terrorist actions also run a risk of turning popular opinion away from the cause ELF is trying to support. The American public is not going to rally behind a cause that resorts to terrorism. The environmental movement has made great strides in the last thirty years. The last thing environmentalists need is to have people looking at them as potential terrorists.

Do I think that it is imperative to reduce our economy's reliance on petroleum - absolutely. However, I can not imagine a worse way to do so then violent 'protest'. IMHO anyone supporting ELF's terrorist actions, even for patriotic reasons, is saying that they support the use of violence instead of peaceful, lawful, protest. IMHO ELF is a blight on the nation and the environmentalist cause.

 

[yellowxj]

I think we should start our own elf ohv fringe group. All the broken down hybrids blocking the trails at tellico could go. Poof. Import suv's could go too. Poof. Imagine the fuel cost savings if those transport ships didnt have to cross the oceans. We'll have to get our own ex-chicom diesel sub to sink those..Poof. We would have to work on getting our hipocracy(sp) straight. I think unimogs look neat so we shouldnt burn them. But if we got rid of all the rest it would be a fuel savings bonanza.

Next after thats cleaned up we could vote on there being too many people in the world. People must be one of the main causes of evironmental problems. We should whack a bunch of them too. Lets clean this joint out a little bit. Less people on the road would mean less traffic and less fuel usage. Damn I'm good. I could almost save the world. OH MAN !!!! I cant sneak out tonight to save the world some more. I used up my lighter smoking my hemp shirt cause I didnt work this year to protest the man bringing me down and now I cant afford my P@T. Ohhhh nnnnoooooooo..................

 

[JeeperJeff]

To prove one's dediction to "the cause" perhaps working on some alternate fuel vehicles would be the ticket rather than working on over priced Lexus SUVs. Personally, I think the H2 is big, ugly and just plain stupid. But, if we outlawed them for being "un-green" I am relatively certain the over-priced, ever so high class Lexus would certainly follow is short order.

ELF burned down a building full of H2s to prove a point. Islamic fanatics also flew airliners into the WTC and the Pentagon to prove their point. The difference is merely a matter of degree. Where does it end? What ELF did was a violent act. Period.

It is indeed fortunate no one was injured or killed this time. But you keep burning down buildings, and some poor working person is going to get killed.

That, no matter what the justification, is murder.

 

[K9Cop]

Another little snippet came out today about it.....
Updated Story

 

[xjblue]

Handlebars brings up some interesting points, there already is a viable alternative solution however. I would be perfectly happy if everybody rode bicycles of some fashion as long as I could take the XJ or Mustang out for a spin on the weekend! furthermore I would love to save a bunch of gas money myself by commuting in an economical vehicle or motorcycle but my present financial situation is delaying such a purchase, I'm just glad the XJ is finally paid off right now. anyway the bicycle in it's present form with lots of gears is the most effecient mechanical device ever created or so I heard it described once. We have the technology already, as was mentioned it would just take a little more motivation (on account of oil being so cheap) to push that technology into the market and to hasten the development of that technology. They say that the market is 10 years behind the technology, take flat panel TV's for example, my friend saw those in Japanese Peoples homes 13 years ago yet they have only been on our market for a few years and still cost an arm and a leg.

Anyway back to the subject at hand, handlebars makes it sound like a war. It isn't a war, the dealership is not an enemy. It's true our dependancy on the internal combustion engine drives our very way of life, perpetuated by the relatively low cost of fuel over the last century. It's true that this dependancy fuels certain political fires burning in the middle east and it will perpetuate terrorism and hatred for us among a few jerks with no true moral values, It's true that some day we will have to adapt to a lack of oil. I don't think it will be a doomsday, the price will go up, the transportation market will adapt other technologies or make cheaper alternatives available, or everyone will ride bikes, no worries. I don't have kids but I'm not worried for the next generation as far as this topic is concerned (except the part about lunatics who burn buisnesses to make a point), I am much more concerned about various internal social evils when it comes to the world my future posterity may have to endure.

I see no real difference between the jerks who flew planes into buildings on 9/11 and the jerks who burnt up a car dealership. Both parties acted inappropriately and unexcusably and just plain wrong regardless of thier political agenda, world view, personal beliefs, and regardless of whatever justification both real or imagined. two negatives might make a positive in math class but a wrong will never make a right or fix a previous wrong, no matter what!

 

[Handlebars]

To prove one's dediction to "the cause" perhaps working on some alternate fuel vehicles would be the ticket rather than working on over priced Lexus SUVs

There is a gas/electric hybrid Lexus RX coming soon to a dealer near you! If you have been paying attention, you would also have read how I am already doing my part to conserve fuel.

Let me see if I can get us all on the same page here. I don’t know whether be proud or scared of all of your cries of environmental degradation. You night brand me a greenie if I complimented you on your environmental sensitivity. While pollution is part of the ELF’s agenda, it is not my main concern.

What concerns me is our nation’s increasing reliance on oil imports to supply our needs. I think we all agree that our economy revolves around the availability of cheap, plentiful oil. The United States has 2% of the world’s oil reserves. Once that is gone we will either be at the mercy of the oil supplying countries or will have to take foreign oil by force. I’m pretty sure that the American public realizes the need to conserve oil. Unfortunately, Americans are extremely apathetic when it comes to taking action. It is a point I have brought up in every post, so far everybody has dodged it, instead choosing to pick apart my motives.

Is there any good reason to have 20, 000 Hummer H2s that get 11 mpg rolling off the assembly line each year? Gas will run out that much sooner. I will repeat the following from an earlier post because nobody has had any comment about it. Perhaps you missed it?

This is taken from the U.S. Department of Energy’s website:

“Reducing the transportation sector's reliance on oil is clearly the key to improving our nation's energy security.
{snip}
In the current situation, the United States has little control over oil supply disruptions and oil price fluctuations. The necessity of maintaining a stable supply of imported oil imposes foreign policy constraints, and in times of crisis, forces the U.S. military into action.”

http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/energy_security.html

You people with children should be especially concerned. We will run out of cheap domestic sources of oil in their lifetime. How safe do you think their world will be when a nuclear-armed superpower that has an economy centered on cheap oil has to rely upon the rest of the world for it? Please note that the largest percentage of proven oil reserves is in the Middle East, an area that already breeds gruesomely effective terrorists. These terrorists are inflamed by a US foreign policy that revolves around keeping their oil available to us. They are also financed by an economy that gets a large percentage of its revenue from oil sales to the United States. I see an endless cycle here that centers on the average American citizen’s unwillingness to make a small sacrifice to help the nation’s security.

Once again, would be happy to have my interpretation proven wrong.

 

[Ed A. Stevens]

<SNIP> I am already doing my part to conserve fuel.

Who is authorized to judge H2 owners of not doing their part to conserve fuel (no A/C usage at home or on in the H2, car pooling, recycling, water conservation, tree plantings, victory gardening, petrochemical experiments in the kitchen, riding a Honda trail 90 commuter during the week and driving the H2 on the odd Saturday wildland's excursion, etc.)?

Does the ELF have the right to judge all H2 owners (do you)?

Let me see if I can get us all on the same page here. I don’t know whether be proud or scared of all of your cries of environmental degradation. You night brand me a greenie if I complimented you on your environmental sensitivity. While pollution is part of the ELF’s agenda, it is not my main concern.

This is where much of the dialog is not on the same page, it appears the illegal and potentially life threatening actions of the ELF are of no concern to you. Is this true; you care nothing for the risk of lives, livelhood, and economic stability for those impacted by the result of the ELF actions?

Begin with your yes or no answer to a simple question, "were the terrorist ELF actions justified and legitimate?"

What concerns me is our nation’s increasing reliance on oil imports to supply our needs. I think we all agree that our economy revolves around the availability of cheap, plentiful oil. The United States has 2% of the world’s oil reserves. Once that is gone we will either be at the mercy of the oil supplying countries or will have to take foreign oil by force. I’m pretty sure that the American public realizes the need to conserve oil. Unfortunately, Americans are extremely apathetic when it comes to taking action. It is a point I have brought up in every post, so far everybody has dodged it, instead choosing to pick apart my motives.

Is there any good reason to have 20, 000 Hummer H2s that get 11 mpg rolling off the assembly line each year? Gas will run out that much sooner. I will repeat the following from an earlier post because nobody has had any comment about it. Perhaps you missed it?


Once again, would be happy to have my interpretation proven wrong.

If you began the discourse with condemning the actions and tactics of the ELF, before presenting your point regarding fears resulting from the USA dependence on oil, you may have received a more focused discussion.

What is your fear regarding petroleum dependence (terrorist actions, another price hike by a cartel, flat running out and the impact on the economy, what)? We are reliant on petroleum oil because it has the least cost and ecological impact given today's technology. Maybe you can offer a better solution (or maybe the ELF can offer something better)?

Nuclear power generation and electric distribution is environmentally cleaner, but considering the cost of safeguards, disposal, and insurance it is not cost effective. There is also the problem of power transmission & distribution (no blackouts allowed) and the threat of terrorists (domestic like the ELF, and those abroad) attacking the distribution.

Electric and Hybred powertrain technology is a more efficient means of transport, but environmentally sound battery recycling and disposal is not yet developed to serve the State of California in a cost effective manner (even the sixth largest GNP in the world cannot overcome this environmental problem). Transmission is also a problem (that blackout problem , with 50 million commuter cars plugged in at night).

LNG is another cleaner technology (CO2 & H2O exhaust), and non-point source friendly, as opposed to a centralized generation and transmission solution (like a high profile terrorist target: a power plant or critical transmission tower or grid intersection). I forget, LNG is petroleum.

LH2, hydrogen, is a great mobile fuel (H2O vapor exhaust with minimal lubricant oil hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides), but it takes electricity to extract and generate (even by chemical means, not by pure electrolysis). We are back relying on high profile, difficult to defend, terror targets for generation and transmission.

The 2% figure, of the world oil reserves contained in the USA, is a debatable number. It is also of zero consequence, politically, when viewed on a global scale if we conserve it (by exploiting other's oil reserves).

The north slope of Alaska was once estimated to include 6% of the worlds known oil reserves, maybe more, as the developed reserves have proven to be more productive than the estimates (it is just that the previously unknown reserves found in the rest of the world have proven even greater potential). The oil capable of being extracted from the coal reserves in Utah are estimated to be large enough to provide a century or more of today's USA petrochemical consumption. We can get more oil, it's just the process will cost more and is less efficient in economical and ecological terms (the investment cost and total environment rehabilitation required will be more comprehensive).

Does it matter, in global or local politics, that our oil will not run out in the next twenty years, or forty years? Probably not. Does it matter than the USA consumes the most oil? Probably not. What does matter is supply and demand, and that the country that exploits the least expensive supply will have an economic advantage in global trade. As long as we exploit the low cost of foreign oil we will remain at an advantage in global trade. Why do I believe this? Look at the long term possibilities?

The eventual result of the USA exploiting non-domestic oil (or depleting our own oil)? The oil runs out. Who suffers the most, the country with depleted reserves or the country that retained a domestic reserve? What country would you prefer to live in when the eventual crisis occurs (simply for the petrochemical drugs, if anything else)? Should we accelerate the decline of the USA, by avoiding cheap foreign oil, to resolve another countries terrorist problems (or a domestic terror problem)?

When the middle eastern oil reserves run out, who is going to dominate world trade (the sailing powerhouse of New Zealand)?

I am a proponent of conservation, but I harbor no fear of low cost petroleum usage exploitation (domestic or worldwide). There are no viable alternative solutions motivating me to revise my environmental concerns, or lowered threat considerations to restructure oil away from my favored power source list. I agree in conservation and fuel efficiency, but they only delay the eventual conclusion of depleated reserves: ours or theirs (so what is your choice).

Please tell me why are you so concerned with foreign oil usage? Is this concern greater than your concern regarding violent terroist actions threatening your livelyhood (or life)? What can you do to address each concern? What does this have to do with people trading in their 8-mpg Benz 500SL's for 11-mpg H2's?

 

[ChEwBaCcA]

Handlebars,

PLEEEEASE the Boston Tea Party and the ELF thing???? Man thats really pushin it.

You remarked to someone on here that they were a "tool" of the administration in power? I would say you must be a rank and file member of the Teddy Kennedy, Diane Fienstein, Hillary Clinton Liberal leftist wing.... AKA "AMERICA IS ALWAYS WRONG" crowd. "We will change you, and since we cant do it through proper debate and legislation, we will sue you w/ our trial lawyer buddies till you change."

You drive a bike to work, come to chicago and drive to work on a bike, I'll give you one year before a cabby rips your body in 5 different pcs. So not everyone is going to "conform" to your life style.

You want a debate? What type of debate did you start? So far all Ive seen is "This is how I live, and most people in this country are wrong" Wheres the debate in that?

You're a puppet for the same groups your railing against? You work for a dealership? lol ....you change and dump hundreds of gallons of oil every week..... you use harmfull chemicals in daily work, proven to cause cancer...... and your lecturing people on here about what they drive? This is almost comical.... but it proves a point....there is no limit to people out there that want to change others lifestyle.

Now you want a debate.........
Get me going... Ill make ya cry like that lil girl did after Kobe took care of her.

Chewy

 

[2offroad]

THIS IS MOST LIKLEY THE WORST THREAD ON .

 

[Glenn B]

THIS IS MOST LIKLEY THE WORST THREAD ON .

I don't see it as the worst thread on the Forums.

My personal take is that some young man is terrified about the future for some reason. He thinks destroying other peoples property is going to change all of us, and make us think "correctly" and see the light.

He works at a glorified Toyota dealership, but rides a bike.... so it is all good, and we should do the same, in his opinion.

He thinks he is right, and we are all wrong. He does not seem to understand why we do not fear the things he is afraid of, in the manner that he thinks is right.

He thinks those of us with children must not love our children if we do not support these terrorists and their means of attaining their current goals. Not sure who the hell he thinks he is to judge the love of other people for their children.

I think somebody has frightened him somehow.... and he just cannot fathom that we are not as afraid of the future as he is. His support of those ELF terrorsists and their methods certainly does not help his argument.

That is may take. I may be wrong..... but that is how I read his propaganda.
Glenn

 

[KY Chris]

Handlebars,

PLEEEEASE the Boston Tea Party and the ELF thing???? Man thats really pushin it.

You remarked to someone on here that they were a "tool" of the administration in power? I would say you must be a rank and file member of the Teddy Kennedy, Diane Fienstein, Hillary Clinton Liberal leftist wing.... AKA "AMERICA IS ALWAYS WRONG" crowd. "We will change you, and since we cant do it through proper debate and legislation, we will sue you w/ our trial lawyer buddies till you change."

You drive a bike to work, come to chicago and drive to work on a bike, I'll give you one year before a cabby rips your body in 5 different pcs. So not everyone is going to "conform" to your life style.

You want a debate? What type of debate did you start? So far all Ive seen is "This is how I live, and most people in this country are wrong" Wheres the debate in that?

You're a puppet for the same groups your railing against? You work for a dealership? lol ....you change and dump hundreds of gallons of oil every week..... you use harmfull chemicals in daily work, proven to cause cancer...... and your lecturing people on here about what they drive? This is almost comical.... but it proves a point....there is no limit to people out there that want to change others lifestyle.

Now you want a debate.........
Get me going... Ill make ya cry like that lil girl did after Kobe took care of her.

Chewy

Chewy for president 2004.

The ELF and the ALF can suck it.

 

[Kejtar]

Hey... Alf Rocks Anyone seen any cats around?

 

[Bent]

Hey... Alf Rocks Anyone seen any cats around?

Fishing for synonyms anyone? :roflmao: