Removing front crossmember

[Israel]

Searching hasn't helped me much with this. I did find one thread about someone who did it, and the general consensus seemed to be that he did a good job at it. I've also seen several threads about the hidden winch bumper that a guy was building that required the removal of the front crossmember, but not much mention of the removal itself.

What I want to do is build a front winch bumper with the winch tucked underneath the radiator. For the frame attatchment points, I'm planning on a 6" wide .25" thick plate that will use the three stock bolts plus the three steering box bolts plus the hole behind that. I know I'll need to come up with something to support the radiator as well as the bottom of the fans.

The bumper will be 2"x4"x.25" tubing layed horizontally. The winch tray will sit beneath it and partially into it with side pieces helping to attatch it to the main 2x4 tube. There will also be diagonal pieces going from the bottom fo the winch tray to the outer edges if that makes any sense at all. So it should be a pretty stout bumper especially for the light wheeling I do.

My question is: Should I be OK removing the front crossmember and relying on my front bumper to do the job, are there other considerations I need to look at, or is it a bad idea entirely and I should abandon the idea of the winch sitting that far back?

 

[YELLAHEEP]

I have no personal experience with this, but I've seen a couple of rigs that have had that piece cut into or removed and it caused all kinds of trouble.

PM our National Secretary "Danno" Dan Riggs. Ask him about this and if he has pics of the carnage. He did something very similar to your idea and built a rather stout bumper thinking it'd take the place of the crossmember. He put the winch behind the bumper too. When he brought the rig out to Moab last year, his front unibody/frame flexed so much it tore/cracked just behind the steering box. I was amazed that it happened with the thick bumper brackets he built that went back and included the steering box bolts. I looked at the tear/crack and when he turned the wheels, the bumper brackets actually moved - even with all the bracing he did. It appeared at the time that if he'd have run a brace between the unibody/frame rails beneath the winch, he'd have been ok.

 

[Israel]

Hmm... So what if I build a new crossmember with the vertical section close to the engine instead of the front like it is stock?

 

[Goatman]

Mine is cut out, except for the top section under the radiator and a short section in front of the steering box. Here's my experience. The top of the crossmember broke the spot welds at the frame, so I re-welded them and added a T brace on top of both sides, and welded in a piece of tubing in front of the crossmember between my very stout bumper mounts. Then, I hit big rock somewhere and it basically destroyed the crossmember, bending it and ripping it apart at the bottom of the big hole in it's center. At this point the torn and mangled thin crossmember was doing nothing structurally, so i cut out the front flat section, leaving the top section under the radiator, and added another piece of tubing below the other one. So, my front crossmember is two sections of tubing welded in between my bumper mounts, and I think it is much stronger then the flimsy stock crossmeber.

Yes, I think you can modify the front crossmember and make it even stronger. We do need a stout crossmember. Even with my very beefy (welded on) bumper, I was surprised to see the cracks and damage to the crossmember.

I wouldn't hesitate to mount the winch below the radiator, but I wouldn't abandon the crossmember altogether and depend on the bumper. Your idea of adding 1/4" plate across the front is good, but having thinner material with an angle in it would likely be stronger, or use some tubing. I had planned to put the winch under the radiator in my current project, but I may have found a better place to put it.

 

[Goatman]

Hmm... So what if I build a new crossmember with the vertical section close to the engine instead of the front like it is stock?

You could just build the crossmember forward slightly, leaving room behind for thr winch, and mount the winch to the back of the crossmember. Maybe make a new crossmember out of a couple of pieces of tubing with plate between them to mount the winch to. The problem is that the crossmember has to clear the steering box.

 

[Israel]

You could just build the crossmember forward slightly, leaving room behind for thr winch, and mount the winch to the back of the crossmember. Maybe make a new crossmember out of a couple of pieces of tubing with plate between them to mount the winch to. The problem is that the crossmember has to clear the steering box.

I think I'll follow your suggestion and build a crossmember as far forward as i can out of two lengths of tubing with some gussets in all four corners. I had forgotten about the steering box :looney: so that nixes the idea of building it behind the winch.

I'll be using a C-ROK inner steering box brace. Anything else to watch out for?

 

[DirtyMJ]

Wad the removal of the front crossmember this one?

Forking MJ. Gonna get me killed.




Anyways, if I was you I'd build an x-member over the top (below/beside the radiator) with perhaps a channel like structure. It will help stiffen up the front as the farther outward you move the x-member the more mech. advantage the shifting of the steering box has on it.

 

[Goatman]

I think I'll follow your suggestion and build a crossmember as far forward as i can out of two lengths of tubing with some gussets in all four corners. I had forgotten about the steering box :looney: so that nixes the idea of building it behind the winch.

I'll be using a C-ROK inner steering box brace. Anything else to watch out for?

I think there's room to mount the winch behind the crossmember, if you're really looking for a snub nose bumper and good approach angle. There is 22" to work with between the steering box and the inside of the opposite frame rail. My Warn 9000XP is 22.7" wide, so it won't fit.......but that was my plan. I don't know how wide your winch is. The other issue is missing the bottom of the engine driven fan, since the fan shroud hangs down below the top of the crossmember. The winch would be offset a little to the right, but I don't see that as a problem.

I wanted my winch under the radiator in my buggy project, both for good approach angle and for low center of gravity. I either need to get a shorter winch, or mount it somewhere else.

 

[OT]

Why not relocate the radiator, Goat?

 

[Goatman]

I considered doing that, but since my front axle is already moved forward 4", and there won't be a bumper or winch mounted out front, the tires are even with the front crossmember with the 37's. If/when I go to 39's or 40's the tires will be an inch or so in front. I figured it's pretty good already with the way I'll build the front, so it wouldn't be worth the hassle of moving the radiator........but I did seriously consider it.

 

[David Taylor]

I need to get a shorter winch.

Fixed

 

[Israel]

I think there's room to mount the winch behind the crossmember, if you're really looking for a snub nose bumper and good approach angle. There is 22" to work with between the steering box and the inside of the opposite frame rail. My Warn 9000XP is 22.7" wide, so it won't fit.......but that was my plan. I don't know how wide your winch is. The other issue is missing the bottom of the engine driven fan, since the fan shroud hangs down below the top of the crossmember. The winch would be offset a little to the right, but I don't see that as a problem.

I wanted my winch under the radiator in my buggy project, both for good approach angle and for low center of gravity. I either need to get a shorter winch, or mount it somewhere else.

I've only got 6.5" of clearance between the crossmember and the crankshaft pulley, plus I would prefer to keep the stock swaybar for now. That's why I'm thinking the stock crossmember needs to go.

 

[Ghost]

I do not have the front crossmember at all. I run the 5K winch bumper and have not had any issues at all so far. (knock on wood!) However up until recently I have the D30 and 4 popper in my 84. Now I have the D44 in the front it may cause some issues but I hope not. I'll keep an eye on it though.

 

[Israel]

I do not have the front crossmember at all. I run the 5K winch bumper and have not had any issues at all so far. (knock on wood!) However up until recently I have the D30 and 4 popper in my 84. Now I have the D44 in the front it may cause some issues but I hope not. I'll keep an eye on it though.

That sounds promising. I PMed Danno and it sounds like he got his frame cracking issues sorted out and hasn't had any issues since his first design. I'm not sure what he did differently, though. I'll be PMing him for more details on the mounts and any extra bracing he put in. Do you have any pics of the mount system and bracing of your 5k bumper?

 

[Weasel]

There is 22"; to work with between the steering box and the inside of the opposite frame rail. My Warn 9000XP is 22.7"; wide, so it won't fit.......

Shorten the winch. Take it all apart, cut the drum down a bit, reweld and viola and 21.5" winch! Works well with sythentic line, article on pirate about it being done. I'm going to remove mine, but I'm also building a new member to replace it that the winch will mount to, and tie both frame rails and steering box section together.

 

[Mr.OverKill]

if you remember the front cross member is flexible and these beefy bumpers we put on to replace them are ridgid you will realize the reason people have cracking farther along the frame is due to the whole vehicle flexing and the front staying solid. did that come out right??

let me try again, these jeeps were made to flex ( sheet metal through and through ) we throw a ridgid piece of metal frame on there ( beefy front bumper, frame stiffeners ect... ) and somethings got to give, we remove a flex point and the ability for some of the flex to travel along the frame and where it stops has just become a high stress point causeing metal fatigue and we get cracks.

removeing the cross member in its self is not to bad, if you replace it with something strong like a good bumper that can handle the flexing and you spread out the reinforced loads farther along the frame sides ( cross braces/ cross members or plateing ) you should be fine. if you watch for the early signs of stress and react with reinforceing when possible you will be fine as well.


HTH

 

[vetteboy]

Any new thoughts/experiences here? Any longevity issues that have developed since this was last discussed?

I'm about to do something to mine to squeeze a winch behind my existing bumper, just curious. Between the winch, steering box, and engine fan there's not a whole lot of room for bracing anywhere else...

Another question, for people that experience steering box cracks after removing the crossmember, were any of them running hydro assist, or was it relying solely on the steering box?

 

[GrimmJeeper]

5c/' x x x x x x x5td4/p'[;/Z7U MA

 

[Goatman]

On my XJ, there's pretty beefy bumper mounts that run back down the frame, and I ran two sections of tubing between the bumper mounts right where they hit the frame horns. I also reinforced on the top of the frame where the top of the cross member and the frame connect. No problems, and it's been that way quite awhile.

The frame is going to crack around the steering box no matter what, even if you don't do anything with the front crossmember, so just be sure it's well plated. Mine was built way before any of these products came to market that are available now. So, when mine cracked on the bottom, I fixed it and plated it, then when it cracked on the outside (under my big bumper mount), I fixed it and plated it, then when it cracked on the inside I did the same, and then the same when it cracked on the top. Just do it up front and be done with it.

 

[XJEEPER]

I have to agree, I've measured and re-measured and I still can't justify all the work of fabbing a new front crossmember to hide the winch.......I'm just gonna have to live with it up top.