Occupy Wall Street

[kastein]

ummmmm, in case you didn't notice Bush isn't president anymore. Can't impeach him, it's about 3 years too late for that.

 

[n1ywb]

There was a Futurama episode where they had a political debate between two clones -
John Jackson vs. Jack Johnson. It reminds me of the current state of US politics; both
parties seem adamantly opposed against each other's policies, yet they represent the
exact same thing. I couldn’t find a clip, but here’s an excerpt:

John Jackson: "It's time someone had the courage to stand up and say: I'm against those things that everybody hates."
Jack Johnson: "Now, I respect my opponent. I think he's a good man. But quite frankly, I agree with everything he just said."
John Jackson: "I say your three cent titanium tax goes too far."
Jack Johnson: "And I say your three cent titanium tax doesn't go too far enough."

Don't let their identical DNA fool you, they differ on some key issues!

 

[Manic Mechanic]

AND WOULD SOMEONE IMPEACH BUSH FOR LYING TO PUBLIC ABOUT GOING TO WAR! Can’t go to war based on ONE unreliable person's word! WMD.. fssss.. USA got SCREWED.. Halliburton made $$s. Money that should have paid the debt down went to the war.
(no political benefit to save $s and pay down budget.)

Funny thing, before and during the early part of the war, WMDs were any biological, chemical, or nuclear weapon that can wipe out masses of people, which Saddam had massive amounts of and had even used on a few occasions. Then, for whatever reasons, the media started focusing on just nukes.
"Oh, Saddam didn't have nukes, guess he's a harmless guy with tons of chemicals and bio weapons. Despite the fact that he gassed 88,000 Kurds, or sent death squads door to door post Gulf War, and starves, tortures, rapes and murders thousands on a regular basis. Yep, he's just harmless."

Fast forward to Libya, and suddenly mustard gas is considered a WMD and part of the rational thinking towards Obama commiting military assets to NATO for operations in Libya. Kinda a double standard, ya think? I mean, sure, something needed to be done, but at least do it by the rules. Considering how Obama handled it, he is more likely to be impeached (not that he would, nor would I bother to) than Bush. Congress agreed overwhelmingly to go to war, it wasn't like Bush said "Let's go, and damn whatever everyone thinks", although that was very much the message that Obama presented at the begining of the Libya issue. Now if he would have brought it to congress to vote on, I'm sure they would have voted in favor.

Now with all that said, yes, Haliburton/KBR make stupid amounts of money overseas on gov't contracts. Its down right unethical. But honestly, I'd blame Cheney more for that than Bush(Another discussion for another time). As well as it seems, private sector should not in any way be involved with a war. Period. Yeah, my time over there may have been less comfortable, but some Colonel does not need a brand new F-150 to drive around the base over there paid for by US tax dollars. He can drive a Humvee like me or my other joes who were lucky enough to not have to walk everywhere.

You can scream and cry about how awful Bush is and how something needs to be done about him, but all that has passed. The guy spends majority of his time doing stuff for wounded veterans and charities, and tries his best to stay out of the spotlight.

Anyways, as far as the lobbies and corrupt officials, I agree with you on that. Lobbyist should not be allowed to contribute ANY money or gifts to elected officials, but instead be used strictly for promoting awareness to certain issues. Corporations should not be allowed to contribute money to campaigns, its backdoor bribing, and is just plain wrong.

I think thats it for now,
-Eric

 

[XJEEPER]

President Obama stated today that he is in support of the OWS movement.

“The most important thing we can do right now is those of us in leadership letting people know that we understand their struggles and we are on their side, and that we want to set up a system in which hard work, responsibility, doing what you’re supposed to do, is rewarded,” Obama said. “And that people who are irresponsible, who are reckless, who don’t feel a sense of obligation to their communities and their companies and their workers that those folks aren’t rewarded.”

He then makes this statement, in a failed attempt to draw a parallel between the TP and OWS.

“In some ways, they’re not that different from some of the protests that we saw coming from the Tea Party. Both on the left and the right, I think people feel separated from their government. They feel that their institutions aren’t looking out for them.”


As a point of reference and for comparison, I thought I'd look up the beliefs that are driving each movement:

NON-NEGOTIABLE CORE BELIEFS OF THE TEA PARTY
1. Illegal Aliens Are Here Illegally.
2. Pro-Domestic Employment Is Indispensable.
3. Stronger Military Is Essential.
4. Special Interests Eliminated.
5. Gun Ownership Is Sacred.
6. Government Must Be Downsized.
7. National Budget Must Be Balanced.
8. Deficit Spending Will End.
9. Bail-Out And Stimulus Plans Are Illegal.
10. Reduce Personal Income Taxes A Must.
11. Reduce Business Income Taxes Are Mandatory.
12. Political Offices Available To Average Citizens.
13. Intrusive Government Stopped.
14. English As Core Language Is Required.
15. Traditional Family Values Are Encouraged.

"Common Sense Constitutional Conservative Self-Governance Is Our Mode Of Operation"
http://www.teaparty.org/about.php



Here's what I was able to gether from various OWS supporting sites:

OWS supporters collective goals

• Reform the current US financial system
  § Burn down the current US financial system
  § Create a crisis for corporations, which will force them to make a change
  § Fight for economic and social justice and to redistribute wealth and political power from the hands of a few to the working class majority
  § Force policy change to create a fair tax structure
  § Force politicians to create policy that separates the government from commerce
  § Force Obama to create more jobs, higher wages, benefits
  § Overthrow and eliminate capitalism
  § Implement socialism as a segway to communism
  § Impeach Obama for lying about eliminating cronyism, because he collected election funds from Wall Street heavy hitters, whom he later appointed to his cabinet.
  § Try and imprison bank execs for their role in causing the financial crisis
  § Try and imprison elected officials who forced banks to lend money to those who couldn’t afford to repay the loans
  § Try and imprison execs tied to Freddie Mac and Fannie May for their role in the housing crisis, which negatively impacted financial institutions
  § Try and imprison elected officials for their roles in conspiring with FM and FM on housing and lending policy
  § Work together to support the immediately passage of the American Jobs Act
  § Stop the assault on the poor and working-class Americans
  
  § Engaging in direct and transparent participatory democracy;
  § Exercising personal and collective responsibility;
  § Recognizing individuals’ inherent privilege and the influence it has on all interactions;
  § Empowering one another against all forms of oppression;
  § Redefining how labor is valued;
  § The sanctity of individual privacy;
  § The belief that education is human right; and
  § Endeavoring to practice and support wide application of open source.

:dunno:

 

[Darky]

Actually. that was more of a failed attempt to shoot down Obama's parallel. Based on the quote you provided, he wasn't saying OWS and Tea Party have the same goals, but instead they both are not happy with the way the gov't has looked out for their interests.

 

[ocean_jet]

Maybe we have differing ideas of what "two party system" means. To me, a two party system would have two distinct parties. We don't have two distinct parties, we have 1 group with the same ideas and two names. The closest we have to a second party would be the various independents.

I see.

Yes, I agree.

 

[ocean_jet]

Here's what I was able to gether from various OWS supporting sites:


OWS supporters collective goals

• Reform the current US financial system
  § Burn down the current US financial system
  § Create a crisis for corporations, which will force them to make a change
  § Fight for economic and social justice and to redistribute wealth and political power from the hands of a few to the working class majority
  § Force policy change to create a fair tax structure
  § Force politicians to create policy that separates the government from commerce
  § Force Obama to create more jobs, higher wages, benefits
  § Overthrow and eliminate capitalism
  § Implement socialism as a segway to communism
  § Impeach Obama for lying about eliminating cronyism, because he collected election funds from Wall Street heavy hitters, whom he later appointed to his cabinet.
  § Try and imprison bank execs for their role in causing the financial crisis
  § Try and imprison elected officials who forced banks to lend money to those who couldn’t afford to repay the loans
  § Try and imprison execs tied to Freddie Mac and Fannie May for their role in the housing crisis, which negatively impacted financial institutions
  § Try and imprison elected officials for their roles in conspiring with FM and FM on housing and lending policy
  § Work together to support the immediately passage of the American Jobs Act
  § Stop the assault on the poor and working-class Americans
  
  § Engaging in direct and transparent participatory democracy;
  § Exercising personal and collective responsibility;
  § Recognizing individuals’ inherent privilege and the influence it has on all interactions;
  § Empowering one another against all forms of oppression;
  § Redefining how labor is valued;
  § The sanctity of individual privacy;
  § The belief that education is human right; and
  § Endeavoring to practice and support wide application of open source.

:dunno:

Just curious... why do you gather random tidbits to try to guess what their position is instead of just referencing their official statement?

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

 

[Beezil]

They

 

[XJEEPER]

Silly me, I actually compiled the list from the websites of the organizations who are supporting and financially backing the OWS movement.

Their stated goal of "true democracy" sounds so much fluffier than Communism, which, by design, is true democracy.

There are many things on their list that I agree need to be addressed and solutions need to be implemented, but there are many that I disagree with as well. We don't need a fundamental transformation of the US, we need a rapid restructure of policy, based on the constitutional principles and values that our Republic was founded upon.

 

[urban yan]

The difference is that your list is worded in a polarizing manor that shows contempt for the movement. Next, I imagine, you'll use that list as a springboard for some marxist/socialist bullshit... which, in turn, will create another muddied argument. The debate will be rendered useless, and nothing will get done.

 

[kndrewa]

http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-street-is-bigger-than-left-vs-right-20111017

‎"What nobody is comfortable with is a movement in which virtually the entire spectrum of middle class and poor Americans is on the same page, railing against incestuous political and financial corruption on Wall Street and in Washington. The reality is that Occupy Wall Street and the millions of middle Americans who make up the Tea Party are natural allies and should be on the same page about most of the key issues, and that's a story our media won't want to or know how to handle."

 

[kndrewa]

...and that's a story our media won't want to or know how to handle."

Similarly, this issue is one that we don't know how to handle on our humble XJ forum.
We are immediately polarized, left VS right, Urban Yan VS XJEEPER. Remember guys, we've all got similar interests here, thats why each of you belongs to . The common interest/intrigue/curiosity about OWS is also why you posted in this thread.

We've been trained by our very existence as Americans to think like Liberals, or to think like Conservatives - to side with one or the other; when in reality we should be objective and open to new ideas, no matter what the source.

Each of us has a responsibility to do the best thing for America, as Americans.
Change is difficult, and very scary - so we cling to our parties to avoid it, even when we know they are not the answer and agree that the system is dated and broken. Sometimes moving forward means moving in a new direction, which may be undefined.

The OWS movement is frightening and exciting.
A sign of the times.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

We've been trained by our very existence as Americans to think like Liberals, or to think like Conservatives - to side with one or the other; when in reality we should be objective and open to new ideas, no matter what the source.

You really think it's an "American" thing to have a strong opinion? The reason a person's opinion coincides with a political philosophy is exactly why that political philosophy exists in the first place. Not the other way around. A person doesn't "think like" Conservatives or Liberals, they have an opinion or a personal viewpoint which coincides with a political party. Which is why those political parties came to be. It's silly to think that the word came before the thought. And it's certainly not just an American thing. You're way off base there.

But I do agree that there are indeed stubborn people and yes they exist in both sides of the political spectrum. It is important to openly examine what you believe and WHY you believe it and unfortunately not enough people do that. Just don't be so quick to label it as an "American" thing.

The OWS movement is frightening and exciting.

No, just frightening.

 

[Darky]

You really think it's an "American" thing to have a strong opinion? The reason a person's opinion coincides with a political philosophy is exactly why that political philosophy exists in the first place. Not the other way around. A person doesn't "think like" Conservatives or Liberals, they have an opinion or a personal viewpoint which coincides with a political party. Which is why those political parties came to be. It's silly to think that the word came before the thought. And it's certainly not just an American thing. You're way off base there.

But I do agree that there are indeed stubborn people and yes they exist in both sides of the political spectrum. It is important to openly examine what you believe and WHY you believe it and unfortunately not enough people do that. Just don't be so quick to label it as an "American" thing.



No, just frightening.

The original parties might have lined up with people's beliefs, but today they are more aligned with extremes. I'd bet most Americans are more center than they are either right or left, yet the right keeps screaming the left is killing the nation while the left screams that the right is raping the nation. As far as politicians go, that's quite true, as far as people go, I don't the parties really line up with the majority of the people they supposedly represent.

 

[ocean_jet]

A person doesn't "think like" Conservatives or Liberals, they have an opinion or a personal viewpoint which coincides with a political party. Which is why those political parties came to be. It's silly to think that the word came before the thought.

If that were true, what does it say of America that we have only two relavant political parties.

Do we as Americans have only two relevant views on any topic...

and only two relevant opinions,

and only two relevant moral compositions?

And anyone who doesn't share one of those two is to be ridiculed by the media and marginalized by the political system (which is ecxactly what happens).



The "two parties" are working toward very similar interests...and it isn't the interest of most people. Their differ only on social issues... issues which stir emotions and create controversy... and get people fighting back and forth instead of focusing on how they are driving this the nation into a financial black hole.

 

[kndrewa]

You really think it's an "American" thing to have a strong opinion? ... And it's certainly not just an American thing. You're way off base there.
... Just don't be so quick to label it as an "American" thing.

I must clarify - you reacted passionately and extracted an unintended meaning from my post.

I grew up in Wyoming, and all my life, people have been either 'a democrat' or 'a republican'. My point is, there has got to be more to a collective form of people's government than the black and white solutions offered through these two groups. However, it is natural to fall into them, because it's all we've ever known as modern Americans participating in our government. It is not meant in any way as an insult, rather, an observation based off experience.

 

[XJEEPER]

The difference is that your list is worded in a polarizing manor that shows contempt for the movement. Next, I imagine, you'll use that list as a springboard for some marxist/socialist bullshit... which, in turn, will create another muddied argument. The debate will be rendered useless, and nothing will get done.

Says the master of critical thought and open discussion.......... :yap:

 

[H8PVMT]

Says the master of critical thought and open discussion.......... :yap:

to be fair I opened my email with your lists and knew exactly who posted it and what you were going to say, without actually looking for the author, you should be confined to the political forums for eternity :anon:

 

[urban yan]

to be fair I opened my email with your lists and knew exactly who posted it and what you were going to say, without actually looking for the author, you should be confined to the political forums for eternity :anon:

It's always the same, tired socialist/marxist theme with this guy. Someone should build a time machine and send him back to the 50s - the pinnacle of communist paranoia.

Just once, it would nice to talk about social justice without it turning into some socialist plot to destroy America.

 

[tbburg]

The difference is that your list is worded in a polarizing manor that shows contempt for the movement.

Maybe the wording of his post mirrors the contempt he feels for the "movement". His writing certainly seems to mirror my contempt for the "movement".

Entertaining factoid: Highest median income in the US: Washington D.C.
"Lynch all the bankers, They're scum. And while you're at it, set up a government bureau to give me money!" Yep, that's legit.
Maybe if they were paying attention, the OWS movement could be "the OWDC movement instead.

Wonder how well the administration would tolerate [insert you own derogatory term for the protesters here] camped out on the national mall in front of the White House and/or Congress.

Another piece of writing that seems to show contempt for the "movement".