Boatwrench
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- Petaluma, CA
Occupy Wall Street
- Thread starter XJLI
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And who conjered up, approved and promoted the bailouts, instead of letting the market stabilize through natural atttition, as a by product of poor financial management practices? Where is the ownership and accountability?
Boatwrench
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- Petaluma, CA
n1ywb
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I don't necessarily have a problem with bailing out a bank; after all if the bank fails then either a LOT of people lose their savings or the FDIC swoops in and saves the depositors but puts the government on the hook. If the bank can survive with a little help then that's probably the best for everybody.
The problem is that the morons who ran the banks into the ground in the first place have been allowed to persist and fester rather than being run out on a rail.
The problem is that the morons who ran the banks into the ground in the first place have been allowed to persist and fester rather than being run out on a rail.
Either way the governemnt, or more precisiely, the American People, are on the hook.
I'd rather pay the FDIC insurance claims and let the "too big to fail" bank fail, .... which opens the door for other, smaller, leaner, more efficient banks that takes less stupid risks move in and fill the void.
That's efficient, competetive markets in actions.
We often talk of the bail out in terms of billions of dollars thrown at the problem.
That's bad enough... but, what about the government subsidized competetive advantage we are giving the mega-banks over small, better run banks. Not only did we throwm billions at the problem and didn't really fix anything, but we unfairly penalized those banks that were doing well and making wise choices by interfering with natural market forces.
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Darky
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- 29 Palms, CA
I'd put the blame on Bush as well as Obama. Wasn't it Bush who started the bailout train rolling with the bailouts of the auto companies before his term ended? Or did he just come up with the idea and start and it was Obama who finished it?
Either way, what should've been a huge change (conservative pres to liberal pres who promised change) turned out to be more of the same. Even though I didn't vote for Obama, it was the fact that he didn't change anything that opened my eyes to the fact that our politicians are all from the same party. They just make arbitrary differences in rhetoric while moving towards the same goal no matter what.
The two party system isn't to blame. You can't blame an illusion.
Either way, what should've been a huge change (conservative pres to liberal pres who promised change) turned out to be more of the same. Even though I didn't vote for Obama, it was the fact that he didn't change anything that opened my eyes to the fact that our politicians are all from the same party. They just make arbitrary differences in rhetoric while moving towards the same goal no matter what.
The two party system isn't to blame. You can't blame an illusion.
bigalpha
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- Tucson, AZ
I thought this was interesting:
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10#
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10#
souske
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:laugh2:
Wait... what?
Reading your first two paragraphs, I was certain you were making the case that the "two party system" was at the root of the bail out.
Yes, it was Bush, then Obama who perpetuated the bail out.
Yes, nothing changed and it IS two supposed parties that are really just a single party.
Yes, they move toward the same goal.
Yes, they are to blame. The two party system is a single entity that ensures big business in America doesn't fail, because that entity's very existence depends on them.
In other words, in the never-ending tug-of-war between "labor" and "capital," there has rarely—if ever—been a time when "capital" was so clearly winning.
Slide 33...
When you can borrow money for nothing, and lend it back to the government risk-free for a few percentage points, you can COIN MONEY. And the banks are doing that. According to IRA, the "net interest margin" made by US banks in the first six months of this year is $211 Billion. Nice!
So, not only do we bail them out, we ensure they can make record profits at the expense of US tax payers!
Money's not free, yet we give it to big banks for free all day long. We all pay for that.
So, not only do we bail them out, we ensure they can make record profits at the expense of US tax payers!
Money's not free, yet we give it to big banks for free all day long. We all pay for that.
Boatwrench
NAXJA Forum User
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- Petaluma, CA
Compounded with interest, no less.
Yes, the Bush administration did some bailing out, too, though the Obama administration took it to a whole new level. Either way, I didn't agree with the bailouts.
By the way, I know Obama is seen as an extreme Socialist by some, but I agree with those who say he's more of a corporatist, as evident by his actions with Wall Street, big business, green movement, etc. Other than healthcare, it isn't so much about the government actually taking ownership of the companies/industries as it is about exercising government oversight over those industries.
He's very much like most other pols; he's in bed with big business. And I think some in the OWS crowd are starting to recognize that Obama is just as guilty of crony capitalism as any other politician.
By the way, I know Obama is seen as an extreme Socialist by some, but I agree with those who say he's more of a corporatist, as evident by his actions with Wall Street, big business, green movement, etc. Other than healthcare, it isn't so much about the government actually taking ownership of the companies/industries as it is about exercising government oversight over those industries.
He's very much like most other pols; he's in bed with big business. And I think some in the OWS crowd are starting to recognize that Obama is just as guilty of crony capitalism as any other politician.
Darky
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- 29 Palms, CA
Maybe we have differing ideas of what "two party system" means. To me, a two party system would have two distinct parties. We don't have two distinct parties, we have 1 group with the same ideas and two names. The closest we have to a second party would be the various independents.
Obama's bailouts officially were to the tune of $1 trillion, or close enough so as to not make a difference. Bush's bailout of the autoo industry was for....just under $1 trillion. Obama only "took them to another level" because you still want to hate on Obama. That's fine. I'm just pointing out that he's no worse than anyone else we've had as of late...
Although your numbers are way off, your essential point is more true than I realized. By the way, the auto bailout was to the tune of $25B, a far cry from just under $1 trillion. And no, I don't hate President Obama, but I do think his policies are bad for the country.
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Agreed. We have allowed the cancer to infiltrate both parties.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism', they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."
--Norman Thomas, former U.S. Socialist Party Presidential Candidate
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There was a Futurama episode where they had a political debate between two clones -
John Jackson vs. Jack Johnson. It reminds me of the current state of US politics; both
parties seem adamantly opposed against each other's policies, yet they represent the
exact same thing. I couldn’t find a clip, but here’s an excerpt:
John Jackson: "It's time someone had the courage to stand up and say: I'm against those things that everybody hates."
Jack Johnson: "Now, I respect my opponent. I think he's a good man. But quite frankly, I agree with everything he just said."
John Jackson: "I say your three cent titanium tax goes too far."
Jack Johnson: "And I say your three cent titanium tax doesn't go too far enough."
John Jackson vs. Jack Johnson. It reminds me of the current state of US politics; both
parties seem adamantly opposed against each other's policies, yet they represent the
exact same thing. I couldn’t find a clip, but here’s an excerpt:
John Jackson: "It's time someone had the courage to stand up and say: I'm against those things that everybody hates."
Jack Johnson: "Now, I respect my opponent. I think he's a good man. But quite frankly, I agree with everything he just said."
John Jackson: "I say your three cent titanium tax goes too far."
Jack Johnson: "And I say your three cent titanium tax doesn't go too far enough."
Darky
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- 29 Palms, CA
The total cost of the TARP program, under which the auto industry bailouts fell, was over 700 billion. So, yeah, the auto industry may not have been anywhere near 1 trillion, but the bailout passed by Bush, which was the one to bailout the banks, was indeed just shy of a trillion.
Passed by Bush - http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1057
Total amount - http://www.tindog.com/2009/03/31/actual-cost-of-tarp-bailouts-29-trillion/ (supposed to be 700billion, could actually be 2.9 trillion, but from 2009, so kind of old)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/business/01tarp.html says that it could actually cost far less since most of the money has been paid back. Pins Obama's subsequent ARRA at $800billion
So, really, the initial outlay for both packages was pretty dang close.
Passed by Bush - http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1057
Total amount - http://www.tindog.com/2009/03/31/actual-cost-of-tarp-bailouts-29-trillion/ (supposed to be 700billion, could actually be 2.9 trillion, but from 2009, so kind of old)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/business/01tarp.html says that it could actually cost far less since most of the money has been paid back. Pins Obama's subsequent ARRA at $800billion
So, really, the initial outlay for both packages was pretty dang close.
Speaking of greed, how about using Corporate-owned life insurance (dead peasant life insurance) to evade taxes?
The whole US political and judicial system has been fully exploited to benefit the ones in power.
I see ridiculous laws. tax laws, criminal laws. How did this happen?
Democracy's checks and balances didn’t work..
Why.. legal bribery with lobbying.. that needs to change!
WHOLE Political Leadership is ROTTEN.. Needs to be replaced. OB is trying to do "the right thing" but, obviously not all decisions have been good for USA. Congress and Senate cant get anything done. They love their political games. Political games never seem to end well for the public. Secret back room deals, gimme contracts to friends.. favorable tax laws..
System needs more transparency. How about each candidate writes down and explains to the public why they voted a certain way..
Needs to be Simpler.
No more back room deals! No more anonymous vote blocks! (<---WTF ARE those? why would anyone create them!)
Need to increase business competition. Need to create small businesses.
Consequence of the bailouts. For autos and banks, "The OLD GUARD" never got wiped out.. The business revolution never happened.. Great fear of unkown. Fear of high costs caused the govt to come in and save the UAW/Auto makers and Banks. With Old guard still in power, change will not move fast.. Why would it, the old guard wants to continue make decisions that help themselves and not the people.
Judges who forget they work for the people and not the govt. Judges collude with police. The judges see the police budget and mirror image of their budget. Police budget gets cut, the judges loss $s and influence. Thus, we have crappy laws favoring the police and not the people.
Govt agencies - enforcing the rules they create, profiting (forfeitures) from enforcing their rules, and usually done with little oversight. no checks and balances there.
USA govt have a case of:
Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts Absolutely!
Blaming people is counterproductive. Change the system so the old guard losses power.
Solution:
Double size of senate and congress. Dilute the power. Get rid of lobbying. Post issues and politicians opinions/votes on line. Radically fix the HORRIBLE tax laws. Fix the check and balances within the govt agencies. (separate the conflicts of interest) AND WOULD SOMEONE IMPEACH BUSH FOR LYING TO PUBLIC ABOUT GOING TO WAR! Can’t go to war based on ONE unreliable person's word! WMD.. fssss.. USA got SCREWED.. Halliburton made $$s. Money that should have paid the debt down went to the war.
(no political benefit to save $s and pay down budget.)
I see ridiculous laws. tax laws, criminal laws. How did this happen?
Democracy's checks and balances didn’t work..
Why.. legal bribery with lobbying.. that needs to change!
WHOLE Political Leadership is ROTTEN.. Needs to be replaced. OB is trying to do "the right thing" but, obviously not all decisions have been good for USA. Congress and Senate cant get anything done. They love their political games. Political games never seem to end well for the public. Secret back room deals, gimme contracts to friends.. favorable tax laws..
System needs more transparency. How about each candidate writes down and explains to the public why they voted a certain way..
Needs to be Simpler.
No more back room deals! No more anonymous vote blocks! (<---WTF ARE those? why would anyone create them!)
Need to increase business competition. Need to create small businesses.
Consequence of the bailouts. For autos and banks, "The OLD GUARD" never got wiped out.. The business revolution never happened.. Great fear of unkown. Fear of high costs caused the govt to come in and save the UAW/Auto makers and Banks. With Old guard still in power, change will not move fast.. Why would it, the old guard wants to continue make decisions that help themselves and not the people.
Judges who forget they work for the people and not the govt. Judges collude with police. The judges see the police budget and mirror image of their budget. Police budget gets cut, the judges loss $s and influence. Thus, we have crappy laws favoring the police and not the people.
Govt agencies - enforcing the rules they create, profiting (forfeitures) from enforcing their rules, and usually done with little oversight. no checks and balances there.
USA govt have a case of:
Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts Absolutely!
Blaming people is counterproductive. Change the system so the old guard losses power.
Solution:
Double size of senate and congress. Dilute the power. Get rid of lobbying. Post issues and politicians opinions/votes on line. Radically fix the HORRIBLE tax laws. Fix the check and balances within the govt agencies. (separate the conflicts of interest) AND WOULD SOMEONE IMPEACH BUSH FOR LYING TO PUBLIC ABOUT GOING TO WAR! Can’t go to war based on ONE unreliable person's word! WMD.. fssss.. USA got SCREWED.. Halliburton made $$s. Money that should have paid the debt down went to the war.
(no political benefit to save $s and pay down budget.)
