Netbook GPS

[Israel]

I was recently introduced to netbook gps by Andy while down in Moab for the fall fling. It sounds like a great way to go to me and with my Garmin eTrex having issues, it's time to look for a new setup. I'd love to hear more opinions and advice on this if anyone has it to offer. I think I've found a good USB external antenna and netbook, but I really don't know what software would be good for trail use.

Let's discuss...

 

[jwtrapper]

I was looking in to doing this for our trip out to Utah but had too much going on and never did get it done. I think its a great idea. If you could do a real time in google earth that would be cool.

 

[Handlebars]

Having used both the National Geographic Topo/laptop thing and a good autorouting Garmin GPS, I muuuuch perfer the GPS. Do any of the programs you would run on your netbook do turn by turn autorouting? I am really spoiled by the new Garmin Mapsource Topo 24k maps. I have most of the Southwest on my Zumo 550, which will autoroute me on any of the roads or trails on the map or allow autorouting along an imported track. It is fairly idiot-proof, I just follow the magenta line:

The Zumo is water and dust proof (it is a motorcycle GPS), fits in a perfect little notch on the dashboard where it is always visible and easily accessible. It also does not get in the way of anything else, ever. The laptop was cumbersome and difficult to read in daylight. A little dust on the screen would only make things worse. National Geographic Topo does not do autorouting so I would have to stop and carefully examine the tiny, squiggly lines to determine if I was on the correct road. The Zumo has an sD card slot. I keep all of the tracks, routes and waypoints for my planned trip on the card and import as needed. This came in handy at last year's Fall Fling. I was tailgunner for Wayne on Metal Masher, which I had never done before. Wayne performed a 1 wheel drive conversion on Widowmaker and had to get towed out the rest of the way. I unexpectedly became trailleader on an unfamilar trail with 20 Cherokees following me. I simply imported the Widomaker track I had on the card and followed the magenta line home. I was also able to help Brenden when he left by himself and got lost to find his way out by getting his GPS coordinates over the CB and figuring out on my GPS map where he was and how he could get out. Yes, I am very happy with what the Zumo does, even after 2 1/2 years.

IMHO, whether choosing a GPS or a laptop for navigation on unknown trails:

Topo maps that provide autorouting capability on existing roads and imported tracks = useful navigation tool.

Anything that lacks autorouting = bright, shiny, worthless dashboard ornament.

What kind of navigation do you plan on doing with it? Also, why did the eTrex not work out?

 

[Israel]

I don't really know what software I would use if I go with the netbook gps. Pardon my ignorance, Alex, but what is autorouting? The plusses with the netbook that are attracting me are the large screen, accuracy with the external antenna, and increased functionality of the netbook (once I'm off the trail, I can post photos, check my email or whatever else). The eTrex Legend is a piece of crap, IMHO. In general the maps are aweful, the screen is tiny, and it's hard to maintain a good signal from inside the jeep. In addition, the first one I had kept losing the display and the replacement my wife bought me keeps turning off with no notice, even with fresh batteries. I need something new, and I also need a laptop type device for school so the netbook gps combo seemed like a logical choice.

 

[Israel]

It looks like Overland Navigator may be a suitable software for this? http://naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=998622

 

[OverlandZJ]

I like the looks of the Overland Nav as well, it looks user friendly. Important for me being a newb to this stuff.

I believe "autorouting" is simply the term for following a predetermined route, as in Alex's magenta line.

What notebook are you considering? I read a solid state drive is preferrred for vehicular use.

 

[HeepSpeed]

I'm going with Overland Navigator once I can afford the $35 gps receiver, the $30 program, and the $30 maps of the areas I wanna visit.

www.spatialminds.com

 

[Handlebars]

Re: autorouting GPS

Autorouting is this simple: I tell the GPS where I want to go and it provides turn-by-turn directions on the roads and trails that will get me from where I am to where I want to be. It also gives the distance of my route and shows the distance remaining to my destination as well as to my next turn. I can also add route waypoints to force it to guide me along roads other than the fastest or shortest way. This allows me to enjoy the scenery while being able to tell at a glance whether I am going the correct way and when to start looking for my next turn. No need to examine the map to see where I am, the GPS does that for me.

I only have auto-routing experience with Garmin GPS’s so the following only relates to them. The key to getting turn-by-turn routing is having the Topo U.S. 24k maps loaded onto a Garmin GPS that does turn-by-turn routing. The roads and trails on those maps are routable, unlike the plain jane Topo maps. Many of the Garmin GPS units do not come with this software, either. Garmin does not make this clear at all but this page does show the different map programs:

http://www.garmin.com/garmin/cms/us/maps/onthetrailmaps

Don’t waste money on the non-24k Topo series, these are 100k metric maps and are NOT routable!

When choosing a GPS unit look for one that offers all 3 of these features: (1)Ability to add maps, (2)accepts microSD or SD data cards, (3)and most important of all, automatic routing (turn by turn routing on roads). These features are also not very obvious, it is better to check the Garmin website. The last feature for the ultimate Jeepin GPS is the ability to auto route on an imported, off-road track. This is very important when trying to find a trail that is not in the Garmin map. Unfortunately Garmin does not provide any information on this ability, I had to figure out by trial and error which units support this feature. So far, I have found the Zumo 550, GPSMAP 60Cx and Rino 520HCx do it, the Nuvi 500 does not. I am sure that other Garmin units have all of these capabilities, I just can not say which ones since I have no personal experience with them.

Some examples of auto-routing vs. non auto routing, using screenshots from my Zumo. Going in order starting from least useful:

Using City Navigator, no topographic information is displayed and the 100+ year old road I am on does not even show up. This is what you get with street-oriented navigation systems:

Using the non-routing 100k Topo, the road is displayed as a faint line but is not routable. I now know where I am but how do I get to where I want to be and how far away is that?

The most basic of routing which any outdoor GPS can do, the compass for off-road navigation. The red heading bug stays at the top of the compass rose, while the rose rotates around to indicate heading. The red arrow shows the bearing to your waypoint. The GPS displays the distance in a direct line to that waypoint.

Here is the same thing applied to the map:

“Start Point” is where I was when I programmed in the waypoint. The checkered flag is my chosen destination. The magenta line it the straight line route between the two. The burrito is my present location , the arrow in the lower right hand corner tells me where my destination is in relation to my current direction of travel. The cyan line is the breadcrumb trail showing where I have been. Any mapping GPS can do this.

Now an auto-routed destination. The green bar at top gives me direction and road instructions. The magenta line follows the road I am to take. The lower right-hand corner now shows distance to my next turn. In the middle is a dubious ETA that I ignore for off-road use but is pretty reliable on paved roads.

Zooming in closer gives me a great look at my position on the moving map and an idea of which way the road is going to twist. My direction of travel is up, the map pans around the vehicle icon.

These are actual size screenshots. I have never wished for a larger screen, nor is one necessary for auto-routing use. That is the real beauty of an auto-routing GPS!


Now if you really want a netbook GPS I would first look for a topo program that also will route you along roads. The computer and GPS puck are the bones and the muscle, software is the brain that makes it all work. National Geographic Topo, Maptech Terrain Navigator and Overland Navigator all use the same scanned USGS 7.5 minute topo maps. They allow tracks and waypoints to be displayed on the map and show you and your breadcrumb trail in relation to them. It is up to you to figure out how to get to where you want to go. The 7.5 minute maps are very detailed but don't lend themselves to easy reading on the fly. Satellite photos are even less readable. None of those programs will pan the map around your direction of travel which would make them a little more easy to use in the field. They are GREAT for looking at where you have been when you get home.

Of course all of this is assuming that you want device that will efficiently help you find your way on unknown roads. Don't let me discourage you from buying a new computer if that is what you want.

 

[DrMoab]

Alex, I'm curious. It seems to me that auto-routing is only good if the particular road is on garmin(or whoever you use) maps.

Can you tell it to hit waypoints that are not on particular roads and will it find them without getting confused?

I know there are numerous times where I get into a place that isn't on the map.

 

[Israel]

Very informative as usual, Alex. Thank you!

I've been poking around a site called www.laptopgpsworld.com but most of the information is in regards to driving on paved streets. I have found some useful threads from geocachers and offroaders though. Garmin Mobile PC sounds interesting, but I'm having a hard time understanding the features and specifically what topo maps can be used with it.

 

[karstic]

Alex have you been able to compare the detail of the 24k software maps to actual USGS paper maps?

I wonder what Garmin is using to build the line files ie 4wd trails, old roads, etc.?

I know with their City Navigator software, at least for the US, many of the dashed routes in the middle of BFE seem to coincide very closely to 4wd tracks found on actual USGS topo maps. This I found out by downloading tracks into NG Topo.

 

[Israel]

Partly rambling out loud and partly looking for opinons, but I think I've narrowed it down to two options that would work best for me.

The Garmin option:
Garmin Mobile PC - 60.00
Topo U.S. 24k South West (UT, CO, AZ, NM) - 130.00
GPS 20x (as part of Mobile PC bundle) - 40.00

Total would be 230.00. A plus would be that it should be pretty much the same set-up Alex has, just on a netbook instead of a dedicated unit. That means it will auto-route trails that are already on the map. A negative would be the sunlight/dim screen issue and 230.00 is almost as much as what I would pay for the netbook.



The Overland Navigator Option:
Overland Navigator software – 40.00
Overland Navigator Utah map – 40.00
BU 353W – 40.00

Total would be 120.00. It’s very user-friendly, supposedly remedies the sunlight/dim screen with increased contrast in the maps, and is much more affordable. But… additional states are 40.00 and there is currently no auto-routing available.

If I decide I can afford it, I would prefer the Garmin option. I know I’ll need the Utah map and I hope to make a trip to Colorado next year so that map would be nice to already have. I believe the Mobile PC software includes street maps so I would be able to use it for directions which would come in handy as well.

 

[Israel]

Edited my Garmin option pricing below to reflect what I can get it for on www.Buy.com

Partly rambling out loud and partly looking for opinons, but I think I've narrowed it down to two options that would work best for me.

The Garmin option:
Garmin Mobile PC and GPS 20x bundle - 81.49
Topo U.S. 24k South West (UT, CO, AZ, NM) - 90.73

Total would be 172.22. A plus would be that it should be pretty much the same set-up Alex has, just on a netbook instead of a dedicated unit. That means it will auto-route trails that are already on the map. A negative would be the sunlight/dim screen issue.



The Overland Navigator Option:
Overland Navigator software – 40.00
Overland Navigator Utah map – 40.00
BU 353W – 40.00

Total would be 120.00. It’s very user-friendly, supposedly remedies the sunlight/dim screen with increased contrast in the maps, and is much more affordable. But… additional states are 40.00 and there is currently no auto-routing available.

If I decide I can afford it, I would prefer the Garmin option. I know I’ll need the Utah map and I hope to make a trip to Colorado next year so that map would be nice to already have. I believe the Mobile PC software includes street maps so I would be able to use it for directions which would come in handy as well.

 

[Handlebars]

Alex, I'm curious. It seems to me that auto-routing is only good if the particular road is on garmin(or whoever you use) maps.

Correct. Auto-routing only works on roads or trails that are in the Garmin map.

Can you tell it to hit waypoints that are not on particular roads and will it find them without getting confused?

Auto-routing only works on roads or trails. My Zumo does some wacky things when asked to auto route to a waypoint that is a significant distance from a road or trail. My trips are planned well in advance so I always load routes, tracks and waypoints for all possible destinations into my Zumo before leaving. For locations that are not on a road or trail on the Garmin map I will place a waypoint on a nearby road so I can route to it from anywhere. For hiking destinations I will place the waypoint at the hike and watch for it on the GPS display as I approach, looking for the appropriate trailhead.

I know there are numerous times where I get into a place that isn't on the map.

I hear you! That is why I find the ability to auto route an imported, off-road track so essential. It is getting easier to find a track from someone else who has been there before me that I can load into my GPS and follow. Garmin Mapsource has nifty track editing tools which allow me to mash fragmented tracks into one route that takes me to where I want to go, or even draw one from scratch. That is how I came up with the tracks for when I lead Strike Ravine at the ‘07 Fall Fling and Dome Plateau in ‘08. Both of those are routes through areas that are dense with intersecting roads and trails, and even dry washes that look like road or trails! That was my first trip on Dome Plateau and I only made one wrong turn.

Very informative as usual, Alex. Thank you!

I've been poking around a site called www.laptopgpsworld.com but most of the information is in regards to driving on paved streets.

You’re welcome Israel! Using a laptop for street navigation strikes me as overkill. Pocket sized navigation systems that will auto route you in cities are abundant and cheap! A well executed auto routing GPS just needs a screen large enough to show your next turn and with voice guidance you don’t even need to look at it! I’m sure for some people a laptop is a better solution but I have not seen the need for one in my Jeep.

I have found some useful threads from geocachers and offroaders though. Garmin Mobile PC sounds interesting, but I'm having a hard time understanding the features and specifically what topo maps can be used with it.

See if you can use the Garmin 24k Topo maps with Garmin Mobil PC. This would probably allow you to auto route its roads and trails. Keep in mind that while the 24k Topo will show the names of most streets in cities it doesn’t contain points of interest like City Navigator does. If you want to use your netbook to navigate in town and in the country you will probably need both map sets. All of my Garmin GPSs support multiple map sets and are easy to switch on the fly.

Alex have you been able to compare the detail of the 24k software maps to actual USGS paper maps?…
…I know with their City Navigator software, at least for the US, many of the dashed routes in the middle of BFE seem to coincide very closely to 4wd tracks found on actual USGS topo maps. This I found out by downloading tracks into NG Topo.

When a road is on Garmin Topo it is usually the exact same as the NG Topo 7.5 minute map version. The roads don’t always make it into the Garmin version though. The Garmin 24k Topo is the closest yet, and has worked for most of my explorations. I always look at both maps when planning a trip anyway, and also Google Earth. Garmin Mapsource has a feature I looove, “View in Google Earth”. This dumps my entire file of tracks and waypoints onto Google Earth to allow use with all of the tools available in that application.

I wonder what Garmin is using to build the line files ie 4wd trails, old roads, etc.?

Raster vs. vector maps:

National Geographic Topo, Maptech Terrain Navigator and Overland Navigator use scanned USGS 7.5 minute topo maps. These USGS 7.5 minute maps are the most accurate maps available. These scanned maps are raster files, from what I understand they are much like jpeg photos. When you zoom in they get bigger and fuzzier and blockier. They do not contain any information other than the image.

Garmin Mapsource city and topo maps are vector maps. These are data files that tell your computer monitor or GPS where to draw roads, topo lines, political boundaries, points of interest, etc. It also tells the unit how to deal with each feature- for my use mainly road classification. This road classification is what makes auto routing possible. It tells the GPS whether roads intersect or merely cross at an overpass, direction of travel and what the estimated travel speed is for that type of road. The GPS uses all of this data when calculating a route, even though none of it may show up on your display at the time. Zooming in or out changes the scale without affecting image quality.

Vector topographic maps are created from the same USGS 7.5 minute maps that the raster-based map programs use, but since they have to go through another step of manipulation there is an increased chance for things to get drawn incorrectly, or left off completely. The accuracy of the vector maps has been sufficient for my use in the field, while providing the benefits of a crisper, less cluttered display, better zoom capability, map rotation around my direction of travel and auto-routing. I love the 7.5 minute maps in National Geographic Topo and the 3-D aerial photography of Google Earth as planning aids but they are too cumbersome for use in the field. Some handhed GPS units will display raster based 7.5 minute maps or satellite photos. I have never used one of them but from my experience using such maps and photos on a really good quality 15.4 inch laptop monitor I think viewing highly detailed, large scale maps and photos on a 4 inch high GPS display would be a step in the wrong direction.

Partly rambling out loud and partly looking for opinons, but I think I've narrowed it down to two options that would work best for me.

The Garmin option:
Garmin Mobile PC - 60.00
Topo U.S. 24k South West (UT, CO, AZ, NM) - 130.00
GPS 20x (as part of Mobile PC bundle) - 40.00

Total would be 230.00. A plus would be that it should be pretty much the same set-up Alex has, just on a netbook instead of a dedicated unit. That means it will auto-route trails that are already on the map. A negative would be the sunlight/dim screen issue and 230.00 is almost as much as what I would pay for the netbook.



The Overland Navigator Option:
Overland Navigator software – 40.00
Overland Navigator Utah map – 40.00
BU 353W – 40.00

Total would be 120.00. It’s very user-friendly, supposedly remedies the sunlight/dim screen with increased contrast in the maps, and is much more affordable. But… additional states are 40.00 and there is currently no auto-routing available.

If I decide I can afford it, I would prefer the Garmin option. I know I’ll need the Utah map and I hope to make a trip to Colorado next year so that map would be nice to already have. I believe the Mobile PC software includes street maps so I would be able to use it for directions which would come in handy as well.

I would go with the Garmin option, as long as it gives you auto routing capability with Mobil PC. The Garmin 24k Topo does not need an unlock code- you can install it on multiple computers, your eTrex and any other Garmin mapping GPS units you may get in the future, in addition to on your netbook. Bonus-you can get your 7.5 minute topo maps, aerial photographs and Google Earth off the internet for free. That sounds like a win-win!

 

[OverlandZJ]

Hey Israel, just another option. While trying to get Topo on my 255w to work i actually learned a few things. Thanks Danny..


www.gpsfiledepot.com here you can download Garmins Mapsource and Topo's from links there, use with a puck and your done.

Think i'm going to just use the Nuvi for most and use my PC with the puck for trips till i learn some more and can upgrade to a unit that works as well as Alex's.

 

[ert01]

For my trip next year I plan to use a Panasonic Toughbook CF-18 hooked up to my Rino 120. I am hoping to be able to use the Rino just as an antenna... I have the TOPO 24K maps and Metroguide but I still have yet to put it all together and give it a shot to see how it'll do... hopefully it works well or I'll need to figure out another setup.

 

[97XJ2]

Way back in the beginning I ran Microsoft Streets and Trips with a GPS antenna. It laid a track for me, it also did routing on the streets that it had.

Then I got Delorme Topo 7.0 and that worked with my external antenna as well. It laid tracks, It also routes and has more roads than Streets and Trips. The base maps are also much Much better. A pseudo topo map with contour lines and half of your screen can be split to show contours in 3-D. Also the downloadable maps include 1 meter color aerial photography, NOAA Charts, and USGS 1:24K Topo's, etc. A real neat feature is when you record a track you can actually turn it into a road in the program, and then it can actually route you through there.

Both of those I ran on my laptop, (15"). I didn't (and still don't) have the budget to drop on a netbook to dedicate for Delorme Topo. Though that would be awesome to have a "big" 10" screen for a good mapping program. Durability and dust would be my biggest worry as I know I run with the window's open and come back with a lot of dust.

ert01: my friend was able to use his Rhino as an antenna for Topo, I would say thats a good sign for other mapping programs.

My current setup is the Delorme PN-40, which is a handheld sized device with a RAMount for my windsheild. Color screen, records tracks to be uploaded back to Topo, takes waypoints etc. You can also load in your downloaded maps to it. I just couldn't justify my laptop rattling around in the Jeep anymore as its currently my only computer.

I could post up screen shots if there is interest.

This is my current "cockpit":

My old cockpit: