Mythbusters/airplane on a treadmill.

in2fords said:
Thats what I was saying, by plane moving forward I mean realitive to a stationary object like a building or tree or whatever. so if the plane is moving forward at 100mph but the wheels are moving backwards at 5 billion miles an hour the plane is still moving foward 100mph, in relationship to the stationary item.
Jeremy

OK - so you're talking about airspeed over the wing (which is what generates lift, and why "airspeed" is more important to and airplane than "ground speed." Airframe speed is generated by thrust, and the air travelling over the airfoil - wing - is what generates lift. If the wing is moving forward through the air at a sufficient speed, it will generate lift. This is why airspeed and groundspeed can be quite different...)
 
According to some of these posts..if we put a giant treadmill on the ground and spin it really fast, planes will not be able to fly over it lol.

Its so simple its pretty easy to overthink it...it will fly.
 
BlueCuda said:
According to some of these posts..if we put a giant treadmill on the ground and spin it really fast, planes will not be able to fly over it lol.

Its so simple its pretty easy to overthink it...it will fly.
NAXTARDS???
 
read first page, and this page, seems silly to be arguring something so obvious.
unless there is a fan (very strong fan) where would the plane be getting any lift from?
simply moving its wheels doesn't provide it with any lift does it?
 
13 pages and no one even mentioned Bernoulli's Principle? WTF... Ron, how can you call yourself a Capt and not bring that up, c'mon now.

Without air movement over the surface of the wings there is no way to create lift. Lift = low pressure created over the top of the wing which pulls it upward into the air.

The same principle "pulls" a sailboat forward through water on every point of sail other than a run. That's why some boats use a vertical wing instead of a sail.

The propeller on a plane is the thrust mechanism to pull the plane through the air fast enough to create a low over the wings which pulls the plane up.

no movement= no air speed= no venturi effect= no lift
 
Ray H said:
I'll be honest, I cant cover a billion. If I could, you would have a bet though. How about $300? I think thats as far as I can go through PayPal.

HAHAHAH someones gonna loose some money. :o


If its a JET I dont think it will take off because of the lift on the wing issue. ...if its a prop plane it is possible it could pick itself up but would probably need to be a 2 or 4 prop... not a cessna single engine.

image01_429x600.jpg
 
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I'm done, you guys that say it won't move are completely braindead. If the engine is running at %95 and the plane is not tethered it will fly. I'll put any money on it.
 
Sweet, Burbon. Lets put up a c-note on it.

Now let me get your argument strait. I'm picturing a stand alone tread mill, sans handles, with an RC plane on it. You increase the throttle on the plane and creep fwd (on the treadmill.) Next, you start the treadmill in the opposite direction. It is assumed the treadmill has no fwd movement and is stationary.

The treadmill is the tether. Wrap your brain around that.
 
Oh the plane will fly just fine, I'm sure the wheels can spin freely fast enough.

Think of it this way, when you come in for a landing, does it matter to the wheels on the airplane how fast your going? I've landed in different aircraft at quite different speeds on several occasions, I noticed the wheels spun freely the same as always the moment they violently reach the tarmac. If the tarmac was moving in the opposite direction at any speed even a matching speed, the violence of the wheels suddenly making contact might be greater but I bet your roll out distance would be about the same if not the same so long as the wheels/tires withstood the adventure.

If you had a gigantic stadium like structure of unimaginable proportion which offered a windless environment. And if you have a stol (short takeoff and landing) aircraft in excellent service. And your magic treadmill runway is linked via transmitter with a sensor in the aircrafts wheels to instantly relay the speed of the wheels to it so it could within nanoseconds match the speed the wheels were spinning. And then if you place the aircraft into position - pilot ready to go as with any normal flight, turn on the treadmill computer and transmitters.

Ok now begin your experiment, what is happening at first, nothing. the plane isn't moving so niether is the treadmill. The pilot starts the engine, realeses the parking brake but keeps the brakes applied, goes through his usual takeoff routine minus taxiing etc...throttles up a bit but still doesn't release the brakes, the treadmill still isn't moving so far.

Now the pilot releases the brakes and applies takeoff power to the engine. The prop which easily moves the stagnant air in our giant enclosed testing stadium back which according to NEWTON causes an equal and opposite reaction thus forcing the aircraft forward. Now what is happening? Same as any normal flight because nothing is holding the aircraft back but as the aircraft is measured at any given speed, it's wheels are spinning twice as fast as normal, whoop tie do, guess what it takes off just fine when the angle of attack and power of the displacement of the air downward caused by the wings creates the opposite and equal reaction again as NEWTON described now known as a law which is that lift part of the equation needed for flight to happen, only with faster spinning wheels by twice as much than normal as it lifts off. Any questions? If so the link in the word lift is the same link on NASA's website were even they host the popular(3rd grade) explanation of how an aircraft flies but this hyper link happens to link you to a more adult explanation on the same word in the same way I've hyper linked it (twice now) in this post for your personal edification. :laugh:
 
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Waterhammer said:
Sweet, Burbon. Lets put up a c-note on it.

Now let me get your argument strait. I'm picturing a stand alone tread mill, sans handles, with an RC plane on it. You increase the throttle on the plane and creep fwd (on the treadmill.) Next, you start the treadmill in the opposite direction. It is assumed the treadmill has no fwd movement and is stationary.

The treadmill is the tether. Wrap your brain around that.

in that case the plane will fly off the end and probably crash in the dirt very quickly since it will fall off the end with very little airspeed, and a treadmill is about 6-8 inches off the ground.

You're honestly willing to lose 100 bucks on this?
Send your money to the RRC when you find out that I won please, the chapter needs the money more than I do.
 
I just started at the "nominated thread", I don't understand....
I don't even know if I want to get involved, but what the hell...
First of all, bullets will not "fly" through the air in a fire, they just 'pop' like a fire cracker, the only way they will hurt you is if if you are sitting on them. I used to be a fire fighter in a pretty tough area of Rockford, I have been in many a house fire that had ammo popping.

Let me get this straight, we are debating weather an air plane will take off if it is sitting on a treadmill?
Who even thought up such a stupid question?
Now, A plane needs a ground speed of 50 MPH to take off, lets say we put a plane on a treadmill, pointed it into a 35MPH headwind, spun the treadmill at 40 MPH, and produced enough thrust to propell the plane 70 MPH, would it take off?
How fast would the wheel be turning?
That is the question that really matters!
How fast would the wheel be turning?
Think about it....
How fast would the wheels be turning...


WTF, I need a drink.
 
goodburbon said:
in that case the plane will fly off the end and probably crash in the dirt very quickly since it will fall off the end with very little airspeed, and a treadmill is about 6-8 inches off the ground.
Exactly. Now hold the plane to the treadmill so it won't "fly" off and crash with very little airspeed...
 
Waterhammer said:
Exactly. Now hold the plane to the treadmill so it won't "fly" off and crash with very little airspeed...


HOLD= Tether

then it doesn't matter if it's on a treadmill or not, it won't go anywhere and the wheels won't spin at all.
 
goodburbon said:
HOLD= Tether

then it doesn't matter if it's on a treadmill or not, it won't go anywhere and the wheels won't spin at all.
If there was an 80 MPH head wind the plane would achieve lift.

Some of you just don't get it, you need to think outside the box.
 
x1,254,879 It will fly

The wheels and tires do not offer enough resistance and because they are free spining they will negate any reverse speed the treadmill will create. Its as issue of opposite forces and the source of the forces. the plane is not powered by the wheels and therefore have no effect.

Open a physics book or just wait for the show.
 
goodburbon said:
HOLD= Tether

then it doesn't matter if it's on a treadmill or not, it won't go anywhere and the wheels won't spin at all.

A plane needs airspeed to fly, yes?
Airspeed = fwd movement, yes?
treadmill sitting on ground= no fwd movement, yes?
plane sitting on above treadmill.
Treadmill not moving fwd,
Therefore plane not moving fwd.

Belt on treadmill turning @ 2500 rpm's
Treadmill not making any fwd progress
plane sitting on treadmill not making any fwd progress.
plane's wheels turning @ 2500 rpm's but no fwd movement.

Stop thinking about the whole thing, examine the pieces.
Then send me my c-note, or send it to the NAC.
I'm not trying to be a dick, I really think we're saying the same thing.
 
just trying to wrap my head around this now...

-plane on treadmill
-treadmill belt is moving
-does the plane have its own propulsion system? (props, jet engine, or is it essentially a glider)
-is there anything providing air movement? (fan, turbine, wind tunnel)
-is plane tethered at all to keep it stationary? and if so, would it not have to be a solid piece so it doesn't move backwards off the belt, yet not fly forward when it 'takes off'?
-if plane has no propulsion system where is it getting the lift from?


airspeed doesn't have to = forward movement does it, airspeed could come from propellers moving air over the wings (not sure if it would be enough to create lift tho)

either way this is getting to be quite the conundrum, should be interesting outcome... wish I was going to be around.
 
Waterhammer said:
Airspeed = fwd movement, yes?.
NO! Airspeed is the relitive movement of the airplane to the air around it, not the ground.
If an air plane flys 100MPH ground speed into a 50MPH headwind, the airplanes air speed is only 50MPH.
If the plane flys with a 50 MPH tail wind, it's airspeed will be 150 MPH.
Waterhammer said:
Belt on treadmill turning @ 2500 rpm's
Treadmill not making any fwd progress
plane sitting on treadmill not making any fwd progress.
plane's wheels turning @ 2500 rpm's but no fwd movement..
Wrong, the plane will be making forward movement, at what ever speed it'd motor will move it at. The planes wheels will be turning at a much higher rate of speed due to the treadmills movement, but the plane will move forward anyway.
Waterhammer said:
Stop thinking about the whole thing, examine the pieces.
Then send me my c-note, or send it to the NAC.
I'm not trying to be a dick, I really think we're saying the same thing.
 
seanR said:
NO! Airspeed is the relitive movement of the airplane to the air around it, not the ground.
If an air plane flys 100MPH ground speed into a 50MPH headwind, the airplanes air speed is only 50MPH.
If the plane flys with a 50 MPH tail wind, it's airspeed will be 150 MPH.

Sorry, I made assumptions. Air movement relative to the wings, I agree.

[/QUOTE]Wrong, the plane will be making forward movement [/QUOTE]

No it won't, thats the point. The treadmill is suppose to completely counteract the fwd motion of the plane.

[/QUOTE], at what ever speed it'd motor will move it at. The planes wheels will be turning at a much higher rate of speed due to the treadmills movement, but the plane will move forward anyway.[/QUOTE]

If the plane moves fwd and the treadmill stays put then that would be considered a takeoff
 
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