Misfiring, where to buy injectors?

[muddeprived]

If there is a factory Technical Service Bulletin recommending that you change to NGK spark plugs to address your specific problem, why are you not trying that first?

That's already been done on mine. Still misfires.

 

[gradon]

If you haven't already, I would follow TerraWombat's advice to eliminate the unsync'd cam position sensor being the culprit.

 

[SteveT]

It's a molded coil rail and the packs can't be swapped. If one goes bad, you have to buy the whole thing.

Oops, my bad. I was running with bad intel. At Cofest, we had a rig giving that same code, and the trail advice was to swap around the packs to pinpoint the fault. This shot from Rock Auto also makes it look like an assembly, not a single component.

 

[SuzysJ]

Thanks for the info on the crank angle sensor above.

 

[muddeprived]

Ok it's getting worse. It seems to misfire everytime I take it out to drive. I drove 10 min to the store, parked it, shopped, came back out and started it up 15 minutes later and it misfired.

Codes: p0303, p0300, p0304

I get these codes alot now.


Now does this point to anything as a possible culprit? It has never misfired as often as it does now, almost every time i start it up after running it and it goes away after a minute or two.

 

[joe_peters]

Ok it's getting worse. It seems to misfire everytime I take it out to drive. I drove 10 min to the store, parked it, shopped, came back out and started it up 15 minutes later and it misfired.

Codes: p0303, p0300, p0304

I get these codes alot now.


Now does this point to anything as a possible culprit? It has never misfired as often as it does now, almost every time i start it up after running it and it goes away after a minute or two.

So, how long does the timer run the efan after you shut off the engine?

You did install the timer I mentioned on page 1 of this thread, didn't you?

 

[muddeprived]

So, how long does the timer run the efan after you shut off the engine?

You did install the timer I mentioned on page 1 of this thread, didn't you?

No sir. I can't figure out how to wire it (i'm seriously stupid when it comes to wiring and terminology). I went to my mechanic and he said he won't mess with it cuz he's not sure either.

 

[Talyn]

In this weather, on short drives you shouldn't be having heat soak issues and shouldn't need the timer yet. I don't recall.. did you check the fuel pressure? What happens to the fuel pressure after you shut it off?

 

[joe_peters]

In this weather, on short drives you shouldn't be having heat soak issues and shouldn't need the timer yet. I don't recall.. did you check the fuel pressure? What happens to the fuel pressure after you shut it off?

As his problem COMPLETELY disappears if he leaves the hood open for 30 minutes after shutdown, I'm putting my money on a heat problem. As it is a 2001, then I'm betting heat soak as in the TSB. He has tried the phony fix of wrapping the number 3 injector, he has tried making heat shields, he has hood vents--no success. The only thing that FOR SURE eliminates the problem is leaving the hood open--every time.

Maybe he was (un)lucky enough to get a 1 of 1000 worst-case XJ, I don't know, but he has been fighting this for a long time now.

 

[muddeprived]

In this weather, on short drives you shouldn't be having heat soak issues and shouldn't need the timer yet. I don't recall.. did you check the fuel pressure? What happens to the fuel pressure after you shut it off?

The shop that helped me diagnose this said fuel pressure was good. it was the first thing they checked.

how does the fuel pressure after I shut it down relate to the misfire? I mean if it was losing pressure or whatever wouldn't it misfire everytime i started it up?

 

[joe_peters]

The shop that helped me diagnose this said fuel pressure was good. it was the first thing they checked.

how does the fuel pressure after I shut it down relate to the misfire? I mean if it was losing pressure or whatever wouldn't it misfire everytime i started it up?

Just guessing, but what I think Talyn's points--very good ones, too--is that your misfiring could be caused due to the fuel pressure draining away because of a bad pump check valve OR your injectors are dirty/bad and fuel is leaking past the injectors and pooling in the intake, either way this would most likely cause misfires. Your injectors may in fact be poor and the heat is causing them to leak rather than the strict TSB boiling of injector number 3.

However, I think we should stick with what we know--cooling the engine compartment eliminates the problem. So, even if it is fuel related, or coil pack/crank sensor thermal issues, cooling the engine bay has to be a good.

 

[muddeprived]

I dug this up...

After recently doing the fan mod, I grew disgusted with having to wait 30 seconds after shutting the car off to flip the switch. Explaining to everyone who rides in the in the car why you have to sit and wait 30 seconds is more work than it is worth. I enjoy everything else about the fan mod and highly recommend it. So, I modded the fan mod to unground the famous wire after 30 seconds. This involves adding a delay-timer to the fan mod circuit. I looked into building the circuit on my own and don't feel as though it would be that difficult. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page2.htm#relay_i.gif
This shows an example of what you would need. Radioshack should sell the goods for ~$15. After some searching I found a Delay-Timer from Elk Products (ELK-960) for $25 from SmartHome.com
It was worth $10 for me not to have to build the timer.
This is a brief description of the installation:
*disclaimer* Do this at your own risk. As always, if you screw up your car, it's your fault. Be careful!

1. Order your timer. I found it from another website for $20, but they didn't look as reputable.
2. When you get your timer, set the jumpers like this: R3 - about half way around will give you 30 seconds
   jp1 - SEC
   jp2 - 1-shot
   jp3 - begin
   jp4 - A
   jp5 - +
   jp6 (if you have it) - 12v duh
3. Setup the connections like this: + - Batt const
   - - ground
   tgr - I tapped into the lighter fuse right at the fuse block
   n/o - one side of your fan mod switch (the other side of your switch should
   be to the 'fan mod' wire)
   com - ground
4. Mount the relay-timer. (I used an empty 3in by 3in washer container made of thin clear plastic. If you don't know what I mean, go to a home improvement store and look in the hardware section. They sell washers in small plastic containers.) After mounting the timer in my washer container, I cut a small hole in the end to run the wires through. There was room on top of my PFC so I just set the container on top of it.
5. Test it. Warm up your car. Test your fan mod switch. It should work exactly as before. Turn it on, you get fans. Turn the fan mod switch on for 2 min. Turn the car off. Leave the fan mod switch on. After 30 seconds (or whatever you set R3 to) the fans will go to low speed for 10min just like before. When you start the car back up, the fan mod switch is back to normal.
6. Enjoy being able to turn your car off and hop out right away without feeling guilty.

Notes : I have only had this mod on my car for today, but it is working perfectly and I don't expect any problems. There are probably better ways do this that would avoid having to turn on the switch 2 min before you turn the car off. I like the way the fan mod works and didn't want to screw around with the wiring of the fan relays. The fact that the fan mod switch works exactly as before is a plus. I don't recommend leaving the switch on all the time (when the car is cold, highway speeds, etc).
Total cost: ~$30.
Total time: 1 hour.

This guy uses a fan mod switch which I do not have. What would I use instead since my system is not modded at all?

 

[muddeprived]

Just guessing, but what I think Talyn's points--very good ones, too--is that your misfiring could be caused due to the fuel pressure draining away because of a bad pump check valve OR your injectors are dirty/bad and fuel is leaking past the injectors and pooling in the intake, either way this would most likely cause misfires. Your injectors may in fact be poor and the heat is causing them to leak rather than the strict TSB boiling of injector number 3.

However, I think we should stick with what we know--cooling the engine compartment eliminates the problem. So, even if it is fuel related, or coil pack/crank sensor thermal issues, cooling the engine bay has to be a good.

Yeah if I can install an air conditioner unit in the engine bay then I think it would fix my issues. :laugh2:

I installed nearly brand new ford injectors so they aren't dirty or bad i'm sure. It did this with both the oem and ford injectors.

 

[joe_peters]

I dug this up...



This guy uses a fan mod switch which I do not have. What would I use instead since my system is not modded at all?

Hard to say, he is using it as a 30-second timer for something connected to "the fan mod", and we don't know what year XJ--if it is an XJ.

However, as writ above--NO.

What concerns me most is with the 2001 OBDII and not wanting to change something that will start throwing codes on you or damage the PCM.

I see a number of settings that will be different for yours in my "mental" sketch book. Lets hang out for a little bit until I hear from the other member I contacted with the late model FSM.

As one buzzard said to the other: "Patience my feathered butt, I'm going down there and kill something!"

 

[Talyn]

As it is a 2001, then I'm betting heat soak as in the TSB. He has tried the phony fix of wrapping the number 3 injector, he has tried making heat shields, he has hood vents--no success. The only thing that FOR SURE eliminates the problem is leaving the hood open--every time.

That TSB does work, it is a work around though. I've had that problem, but it was only on #3 for me, which is typical. He is showing #3 and #4. I'm not saying it isn't heat soak, but it really isn't hot enough for it to happen. And it doesn't fit the cold soak issue either.

Just guessing, but what I think Talyn's points--very good ones, too--is that your misfiring could be caused due to the fuel pressure draining away because of a bad pump check valve OR your injectors are dirty/bad and fuel is leaking past the injectors and pooling in the intake, either way this would most likely cause misfires. Your injectors may in fact be poor and the heat is causing them to leak rather than the strict TSB boiling of injector number 3.

The injectors were pretty much tested by me. I used them for a limited number of miles and i did purchase them new. But the fuel rail not holding the correct pressure due to the check valve/regulator is the line I am thinking along.

What concerns me most is with the 2001 OBDII and not wanting to change something that will start throwing codes on you or damage the PCM.

I see a number of settings that will be different for yours in my "mental" sketch book. Lets hang out for a little bit until I hear from the other member I contacted with the late model FSM.

The fan is controlled by the relay in the PDC, which is controlled by the PCM. I have just plain removed the relay and jumped it several times on mine. It will throw a code if the relay is removed, but I don't think it would if the fan is just powered on by itself.

If I was doing the timer/fan mod I would use a relay that would connect to the in and out to the fan on the stock relay. Two relays on the same circuit. Or another idea is to just use the stock relay. If it does throw a code, which it only would do when the PCM was powered up, it would clear on the next on/off cycle if not before.

Before playing with the timer here is a suggestion. When you stop pop the hood, remove the PDC cover, pull the fan relay. Jumper the relay with a piece of wire (the terminals are on the left and right, not front and rear, IIRC) close the hood and let if run for maybe 5 minutes? Pop hood and pull wire, replace relay. Go do what you need to do come back and see if it is any better.

 

[muddeprived]

That TSB does work, it is a work around though. I've had that problem, but it was only on #3 for me, which is typical. He is showing #3 and #4. I'm not saying it isn't heat soak, but it really isn't hot enough for it to happen. And it doesn't fit the cold soak issue either.



The injectors were pretty much tested by me. I used them for a limited number of miles and i did purchase them new. But the fuel rail not holding the correct pressure due to the check valve/regulator is the line I am thinking along.


The fan is controlled by the relay in the PDC, which is controlled by the PCM. I have just plain removed the relay and jumped it several times on mine. It will throw a code if the relay is removed, but I don't think it would if the fan is just powered on by itself.

If I was doing the timer/fan mod I would use a relay that would connect to the in and out to the fan on the stock relay. Two relays on the same circuit. Or another idea is to just use the stock relay. If it does throw a code, which it only would do when the PCM was powered up, it would clear on the next on/off cycle if not before.

Before playing with the timer here is a suggestion. When you stop pop the hood, remove the PDC cover, pull the fan relay. Jumper the relay with a piece of wire (the terminals are on the left and right, not front and rear, IIRC) close the hood and let if run for maybe 5 minutes? Pop hood and pull wire, replace relay. Go do what you need to do come back and see if it is any better.

As stated before, i suck with wiring and electronic terminology so could you explain where this PDC and fan relay is? i don't even know what a relay is or does....:tears:. Boy do I suck? :roflmao:


I emailed Elk and asked them about my situation and here' what he said:

[FONT=&quot]Good afternoon Chris,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The ELK-960 POS and NEG will need to be connected to a Constant 12 V from the vehicle and you will need a positive or negative trigger to let the ELK-960 know the vehicle is running --- Please try the following jumper settings:[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]POS of the ELK-960 to constant +12VDC[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]NEG of the ELK-960 to the negative of the source[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]JP1 – MIN[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]JP2 – 1-Shot[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]JP3 - Begin[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]JP4 – “A”[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]JP5 – “+” OR “-“ depending on the trigger when the vehicle is running[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]Connect from the +12VDC of the constant source to COM on the ELK-960[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]Connect the + of the electric fans to the N/O on the ELK-960[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]Connect the – of the electric fans to the negative of the source[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the vehicle is started a trigger should be sent to the ELK-960 which will cause the relay to turn ON. When the vehicle is turned OFF the trigger should be removed from the ELK-960 at which time the timing will start ---- 2 minutes later the relay should turn OFF. Please make sure the current draw of the electric fans does not exceed the contact rating of the ELK-960 up to 28 VDC at 7Amps.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thank you,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Brad Weeks[/FONT]

What could I use as +12VDC to the COM? He says "[FONT=&quot]NEG of the ELK-960 to the negative of the source" [/FONT], what does he mean by this? neg of the source of the +12VDC or the fan?

I assume I look for a red and black wire coming out of the fan, which would be pos and negative wires? Positive connects to the N/O on the delay timer. Do I connect the negative fan wire to the negative wire of the source of power (+12vdc)?

Jp5 is + or - depending on the trigger when vehicle is running? what does this mean?

Please make sure the current draw of the electric fans does not exceed the contact rating of the ELK-960 up to 28 VDC at 7Amps.

Does my fan exceed these ratings?

 

[joe_peters]

The ELK 960 tech's plan is correct.

Lets step through his plan one item at a time.

JP1 allows you to select SEC (seconds) or MIN (minutes). You will want to eventually have this set to MIN, but for initial install and testing set it to SEC.

JP2 is to set the ELK 960 to complete 1-SHOT (one cycle) per activation or REPEAT (multiple cycles) per activation. 1-SHOT is what you want, as you don't want the efan kicking on/off repeatedly.

JP3 is to tell the ELK 960 what you want it to do--activate the relay or de-activate the relay. You want the relay to run the fan when the key is turned OFF, so BEGIN is your setting.

JP4 is to tell the ELK 960 how it should react to the TGR, the trigger. We are going to wire the ELK 960 TGR, the trigger, so that it is powered when the key is ON. JP4 tells the ELK 960 to activate and run for the set time when the power is removed from the TGR trigger.

JP5 will be "+", so the ELK 960 expects power to be hooked up the TGR not a ground.

Ok, enough for the jumpers.

Lets talk terminals--where you are going to attach wires.

"+" terminal needs 12 volts constant, key ON or OFF.

"-" needs a "source" ground--it needs a ground that completes a circuit with the power source.

Neither "+" or "-" terminals need substantial wires, they are just powering the ELK 960 itself.

TGR terminal is where you are going to attach a wire that is only powered when the key is in the ON position. As this is merely a trigger, the wire does not have to be substantial.

COM is where you will attach a power lead with a substantial wire (at least equal to the OEM wire powering the efan)

N/O terminal is where you need to attach the substantial wire that will feed power to the efan from the ELK 960. The power for the fan enters at COM, and when the key is OFF the power exits at N/O, and the fan operates for the timer's duration. This wire also should be the equal of the OEM power wire, so use the same size wire that you ran to COM.

Where the tech talks about the "-" to the fan--don't worry about it--its already there.

Now, is that clear as mud or what?

EDIT: there should be no need for a diode or any concern with this setup as you will be tapping into the efan relays power wire to the efan from the N/O terminal of the ELK 960, and that wire is always hot from the PDC--power distribution center, the fuse/relay box under the hood.

Once you have it all up and working you need to address sealing it up as in the original post you found.

EDIT 2: you need to identify your wires with the battery connected, but please remember to disconnect the negative cable while cutting/tapping/attaching anything electrical--fewer sparks that way.

 

[Talyn]

As stated before, i suck with wiring and electronic terminology so could you explain where this PDC and fan relay is? i don't even know what a relay is or does....:tears:. Boy do I suck? :roflmao:

PDC = Power Distribution Center. Its the black box reward of the battery on the passenger side. On the underside of the lid it will be labeled which relay is which.

If this was mine this is what I would do. With the ELM.

I'm going off their instructions and the picture on site. The instructions you received in email plain suck. All the wires you need are right near the PDC, so its easy access and you can put the Elm there or run it back into the cab for better protection. It does need to be protected from teh elements, so perhaps seal teh ELM up in a project box or something. Bold is the stuff on the board.

JP3: Begin
JP4: A
JP5: -

+ : to some positive source.. like the battery or the positive terminal on the PDC (very front of the box, its covered).

- : ground it to a bolt or something, just needs a negative input.

TGR: something that turns on when the engine is running. Such as the fuel pump relay control. That would be a Brown wire in the harness that goes to the PDC. It will also be a negative wire. That comes from the PCM. If you don't want to use that wire you can use the Dark green with a white tracer (DG/WT), also in the PDC wiring harness. This wire sends the power to the fuel pump. However if you use that JP5 will have to be +

COM: To the trigger on the fan relay. Dark Blue with Pink tracer (DB/PK), also on the PDC harness. You may also want to put a diode on the DB/PK wire going back to the PCM so that negative doesn't go to the PCM. Don't know if it would do anything, but I don't know that for a fact.

N/O: Negative or ground, because the fan is a negative trigger. Can just jumper off "-" on the Elm.

If you look at this PDF: http://www.elkproducts.com/pdf/960_hookups.pdf you are basically doing #1.

The wattage won't matter with this as you are simply running the factory relay. I would not directly power the fan using the Elm relay.

Now that I got that figured I will just have to get one for myself.

-Chris

 

[Talyn]

Also, I would put a switch inline with the COM or N/O so you can manually kill it if you are working under the hood. Don't want it coming on if you turn the key on while you are working under there.

Its also too bad that it is a return-less fuel system because you could run the fuel pump also. I could actually find a bunch of uses for these things on the XJ.. mostly convenience items. Such as having power to interior items such as windows and radio when you remove the key. Could probably even make it cut off when you open a door.

 

[muddeprived]

Ok let me see here.

+ is wired to the postive battery terminal

- is wired to the negative battery terminal (?)

TGR is wired to the DG/WT (fuel pump power) and JP5 is changed to positive. (why is changed to positive, because it's a power wire?)


N/O is wired to the " - " port of the delay timer (which is also wired to the neg terminal of the battery)

Com: is wired to the DB/PK in the PDC harness. This is the positive fan wire right? Am i tapping into this wire or cutting it and routing it to the timer?


Am i anywhere near right with this?


What kind of wire and gauge would you recommend for wiring up all this?