Lowering XJ

[aspera]

Welcome to the forum! You sound like you have quite a bit of knowledge to add to the community... I like that.

Thanks for the warm welcome. My head is swelling as I type.

I'm mostly into Subaru stuff and MR2 stuff, which is WAY different than XJ stuff. I'm still trying to figure out the horse-and-buggy suspension on my XJ. While it may be old-tech, it gets the job done. That job is the same as on my other vehicles. They are all just boxes rolling on wheels. That's why I believe that the XJ has potential OTHER that offroading it.

The WRX is a jack-of-all-trades sports car. It does best at a rally race, but can also autocross, drag, road race, ice race, and do some light offroading. One lucky WRX is even going to be a Bonneville top speed car.

Being realistic, the XJ will never keep up with a new Corvette or even a *well* done import car. It is too tall, narrow and heavy. That doesn't mean that it can't be improved to a point where it is DAMN good on the street.

It has certain advantages. First is simplicity. There's no VTEC, tumble generator valves, variable valve timing, traction control, etc. My Jeep doesn't even have OBD2 or ABS.

Second is traction. If the XJ can swallow big offroad tires, then it can surely take some decent sized street tires. You also have the option of AWD.

Third is aftermarket support and availablility. A bazillion Cherokees were made. Everybody has been making cheap parts for them for over a decade. Even Ford has unknowingly been making parts for the XJ.

Last is weight. The XJ is a runt compared to modern bloated SUVs. That is a good thing. With some careful dieting, it can get pretty lean and mean. By careful I mean that you should choose the springs that are lightweight, not only short or stiff. Remember, that extra coil might weigh a pound or two.

 

[Lawn Cher']

I like Subaru's... I learned to drive on my mom's '91 Loyale wagon... 1.8 H-4, 5-speed, pushbutton part time 4wd. I used to wheel it a little bit and tow my little boat with it. Great car, very utilitarian and reliable like the XJ, only much better gas mileage. My dad had a '94 Legacy 2wd wagon, 2.2 H-4, 5 speed. That car was much sportier to drive, more comfortable also. They still have it, it is in great shape. I haven't driven any of the AWD models, but I imagine they stick to the road like glue (at least in Gran Turismo, they do, which I find to be fairly accurate in vehicle handling characteristics. I fine tuned my skid control reflexes playing that game!)

My mom got rid of the '91 (much to my disappointment, it would've made a fun little sand car,) and now drives the '94. My dad bought an Oldsmobile Alero, rather boring IMHO.

Alright, back on topic!

 

[aspera]

Well the long and short of it is...I punked out.

I drove over to Topeka today to watch the SCCA autocross Nationals. I met up with some friends and went to lunch. I got to ride in the new turboed Forrester. That thing is a sleeper and a half! Most people would turn up their noses at it...IF they even noticed it. It just looks odd. Underneath the skin it is a cross between an Outback Sport and a WRX STi. The owner said he had recently spanked some Hondas at the drag races!:lol: They never knew what hit 'em.

OK. After lunch I go back to the races and check out BMWs, Porsches, Saturns(WTF?), Corvettes, etc... There was also a plain-Jane Ford Focus I was told to look at closely. It was stuffed with the ENTIRE Mustang Cobra drivetrain. It was even supercharged! I hate Fords but damn, you gotta love that.

Here's where I punked out on the whole "Street Cherokee" thing. I stopped into a 4x4 show just down the road, right before closing. I walked out with 5 Wrangler Rubicon Moab take-off alloys (some scratches) and Goodyear MT/Rs (4 tires had 3K miles, spare was new) for $700.

 

[Lawn Cher']

There's not reason why you can't do both. My XJ is certainly no street machine, but my wife's is fun to speed around in, being bone stock. I'm going to restore my '89 MJ into something in between, a mildly wheelable street truck, as soon as I sell my '87 MJ tow rig.

 

[Cherokid]

Has anyone tried pulling leaves out of the rear pack? There's a free way to drop and if you don't like it you can always go back. A few years back I saw these little urithane bump stops. (about an inch tall total). That would gain you more usable suspension travel. When you bottom out you may do it hard but once you learn the limits of the suspension it will work.

In the front you could spend some time at the junk yard and look for coils from a car the same weight with shorter coils. Seems to me if the coil diameter is the same it'll fly. Trim the front bump stops and run shocks all around a little stiffer with the body of the shock mounted high. (less unsprung weigh, flipping the shocks will make a noticable difference.)

(Several years ago I dropped a Nissan hardbody 4" and it was a blast!)

Final thought...
What about getting some wide offroad front fenders and widen the back to get more rubbler down?

Food for thought or should I get back on my meds?

Tony

 

[REDXJ4FUN]

About the fenders I've been looking for fiberglass fenders that look factory but are wider but haven't had much luck yet but maybe with so help from the colectedbrain power here we could find som if not just some good old triming like we do with the 4x4s. then we'ded have to do something similar to the rear. kinda like a wide body kit they make for BMWs and ricers.

 

[Cherokid]

I just remembered an old trick my dad told me about (that I haven't used....yet). Back in the forties and fifties when they had tire clearance problems with the outer fender lips they'd cut back where the wheel well opening rolls under or take a baseball bat (or similar 'tool') and leverage it between the tire and wheel well opening, rolling it back and forth. He said they'd slowly get the fender to bow out a little and gain more clearance. My understanding is ya gotta go slow and work it back and forth a lot but that the result looks pretty good.

Nuther option? Or more meds!
Tony

 

[XJguy]

The fender rolling would not work to well on an XJ. On the Warrior I have intentions to give it round wheel wells. That way I can really get a nice fit with the tire and opening. You can get the big figerglass racing fenders but they may offer too much clearance for even the most dropped XJ unless you got with huge rims which actually may look pretty sweet....but thats just a guess, I never actually saw them in person to take measurements.

XJguy

 

[CW]

Just for fun yesterday my buddies and I slammed my xj in my driveway. I cut 3" off of my old stock coils and in the back we put an mj overload spring and a nissan pickup leaf under an xj main leaf. It was around 3" of dropp all the way around. It looked pretty funny with baja lights on the top and big bumpers, but I think I will do it again when I want to take my stroker to the drags. I don't know what it rides like because the engine is blown and I'm installing my stroker this week. I imagine it would be stiff, but I don't know how much different from my 5.5" of lift. I have TJ flares so I still had room for more dropp or bigger wheels.

 

[mark268]

:banghead:


OK GUYS !!!!

I havent even read this whole thread, I had to stop because you are making this much harder then it should be.

First of all, nothing wrong if the guy wants to lower his XJ, it's his to do with what he wants.
Second, I believe this is the speed and performance BB ?
And Last but not least....
To lower you XJ cut the front coil springs, possibly cut then re weld the tube that hold the bump stop, and make a SUA. A SUA will give you apx. 2.5". It is actually the axel tube dia. +/-, you can figure it out. If this is not enough then add blocks and cut more spring.
Now how hard is that ?

 

[REDXJ4FUN]

Mark if you didn't read the entire thread you missed alot. theres alot more than just lowering an XJ and everything you sai has been covered but you measurement for the rear is more of about 5 in,

 

[Eagle]

Coil Theory Question: Removing (cutting off) a wrap or two from a coil spring increases it's stiffness - Yes? If so (asssuming the coil is linear & not progressive rate) is there a simple equation that one could plug in spring rate # and number of wraps to predict drop and/or rate increase?

Correct. A coil spring is simply a torsion bar wrapped around itself in a helix. Cutting off a coil or two does increase the stiffness. I don't remember if it is a direct proportion, or if it is exponential.

One of the off-road mags had an article a few months (maybe a year now) ago that had formulas for calculating spring rates of both coil springs and leaf springs. Does anyone have that article?

 

[M. Lake]

Changing the drive train all together!

How about using something like a Corvett rearend giving a IRS and finding something out of a subaru for the front giving an IFS? You could then use drop spindles on the front and not worry about a solid axle putting the oil pan against a rod. It would take some fab work, but then how many here haven't fabed something up already? Look a Bez's XJ and what he did to the rear end to get a 4 link done.

Look at the rear of this thing and take that into mind. If you cut the floor out of the back (not the fendors) to the hight of the seat, and welded in a new floor (to hight of top of rear seat) then all the suspension stuff would be hidden for doing a coil/shock hoop. You could go as far as putting a TV in so that when you lift the hatch, you see a ~18" raised section with a TV, dvd and some speakers hidden by the lower portian of hatch. Would make an awesome tailgate party truck.

Put in an impact cage (not roll) and have it tie from the rear (suspension parts) to the inside. Then do what the Musle car guys do and hack the inside of the fender wells out and put in a mean motor, SBC 400 or a well tuned 4.0 and have the impact cage go through the fenders and up and around the rad. This would give you shock (short stang coilovers) hoop intagrated into the cage. Like a nascar kinda.

 

[Eagle]

Re: Changing the drive train all together!

How about using something like a Corvett rearend giving a IRS and finding something out of a subaru for the front giving an IFS? You could then use drop spindles on the front and not worry about a solid axle putting the oil pan against a rod.

Or do it the easy way, and keep it all in the family: The early 80s AMC Eagle sedans and wagons were 4WD with IFS. The engines were the same 4.2L that was used in Wranglers, which is essentially the same block as the 4.0L XJ engine. AMC somehow hung the front diff off the engine -- I see no reason this couldn't be adapted to an XJ low rider.

 

[M. Lake]

4.2 block

Actually the 4.2 block is a taller and norrower block then the 4.0, the heads from the 4.0 will fit any I-6 AMC/Jeep block made since 1964 like the postal jeeps and there 232, to the 4.2 block. The journals were the sleaves are (piston), are not as wide, so it couldn't even be re-sleaved to a 4.0 without major block work. Then it would be the Mexico version I-6 wich is a 4.6, but it is not a strocker.

I was thinking more along the lines of getting the frame rail (if you want to call it that) closer to the ground maybe tube the whole thing front to back. (No KISS on my project). Is the eagle sadan stock with a solid mounted diff, with "A" arms like the vet diff rear? It would help. The 242 t-case is part and full time 4wd, would it work for the applacation of awd (limited slip in the case) to supply power to the ground at all four corners with a simple type of traction control? I have plans in my mind of building one, and the wife has started giving me greif about it. And I don't want to build one that is rear happy. I would like to mesh the little peddle to the steal and not spinn off the rear tires, more along the lines of just flat out see ya later, I'm gone, don't try to catch me jump off the line balls. SBC with twin turbos and nothing in the engine bay but motor and not electrical do dads, on bunch of BS. Not filling the whole bay up with motor, but having something open with tons of space and a motor in the midle. A body diet for the Jeep!

 

[aspera]

Did someone say Subaru?

The XJ would require EXTRAORDINARY fabrication to install the Suby front suspension. I mean you'd have to built strut towers from scratch, for starters. The next big problem would be getting power to the front wheels. The XJ uses a transfer case and a separate front axle. Scoobys use an all-in-one transaxle. It would be easier to just use the entire Subaru engine/tranny combo. The idea of a Cherokee wearing a an STi Type RA Spec C badge makes me smile though.

The Subaru rear diff would be too small to use with anything but the Subaru drivetrain. It does attach to the car using a subframe, so conversion seems do-able. A bonus is that the Subaru rear diff readily accepts a skidplate. Check under a Legacy or Impreza next time you visit a junkyard. Subarus are usually left untouched, since they are not too common.

Tell me more about the Mexico engine and the AMC Eagle front suspension. Any pix or links?

 

[mark268]

:doh:

Ok, I am sorry guys. I should have continued reading.
Many apologies.
Mark

 

[M. Lake]

I don't know about using a complete subi drivetrain. Maybe to acomplish a solid mount front diff, use a cheby or ford, or nissan, with out the torsion bars. Gutting the fenders and all the extra crap, like over flow bottle, (stick in stock place of window washer bottle) relocate battery to back, putting the ecu under dash with main fuse and relay box. Like looking under the hood of a rodded out comero (70-80) all you see is motor and tires and tube frame. Using the tube frame for the coil over shock hoop and to hold front nose clip and radiator and front diff.

Dr. Dyno can tell about the mexico motor, or join the strokers group.

To do a tube frame front to back, tieing the inside impact cage, front tube and rear tube for the vet rear end. A cage that can handle a 100+ MPH head on impact, not something to be made for just roll overs while wheeling the rocks.

This would be my tow rig project to pull the XJ that I have, and building up. Have parts for an 8" lift, but add a 2" raise on the axle to get 10", complete LA front and rear w/rear coils, 4.~ stroker motor (finaly got custom piston size, Big thanks Dino) D60 FW rear, need to locate HPRCD60 80-86 F350SD. As well as my, 1/4 drag, tour the streats and woop saleans, mall cruiser (did I just say that?)

If jeep was ment to be a trail king it would come that way stock, instead of a grocery getting, soccer mom, streat buggy. I can go all out droping it, with awd, 20-22" spinners with lo-pros, just like I can go up 10" with 35"+ on FW axles and skids galor. Just need 3rd jeep (wife wont let me do it to hers, she wants hers lifted, working on it.)

 

[Eagle]

Re: 4.2 block

Actually the 4.2 block is a taller and norrower block then the 4.0, the heads from the 4.0 will fit any I-6 AMC/Jeep block made since 1964 like the postal jeeps and there 232, to the 4.2 block. The journals were the sleaves are (piston), are not as wide, so it couldn't even be re-sleaved to a 4.0 without major block work. Then it would be the Mexico version I-6 wich is a 4.6, but it is not a strocker.

True, but irrelevent.

I wasn't suggesting trying to use a 4.2L engine, I was suggesting that the Eagle 4WD IFS could be attached to a 4.0L block the same way it is attached to the 4.2L blocks in the Eagles. AMC did not cast a different block for the Eagles -- they hung the front diff from stock blocks using brackets. Despite the very minor differences in deck height and block width, the 4.2L and 4.0L engines are essentially the same.

 

[M. Lake]

Eagle!

That they are, I'm building a stroked out 4.0 based off the 4.2 (90 yj crank, 4 CW with short snout and 707 forged rods)

But how do they bolt it to the block? Would it move (torque movement of motor while aplying gas) with the block? Could you help out with a link or a pic please? Those are the 4wd cars right? I would love to build it, even if it took 5 years!