locker, snow, and $$$$

Put the locker in the rear, they are a lot more fun. You can make it fishtail and do some pretty cool burn-outs.

As far as safety goes, lockers can be dangerous on snow/ice if you get stupid with them. Most lockers are fairly predictable, so take it out and learn how it will react to these situations. Once you have it figured out, you'll be able to react appropreatly when you loose traction.

I would feel a lot safer with a locked rear because you will not completely loose your ability to steer. If you lock the front and loose traction with the front wheels, what are you going to do? Steer with the rear wheels?

And yes, I have driven in the snow with front lockers, rear lockers, and front and rear lockers.
 
If you say "If you lock the front and loose traction with the front wheels, what are you going to do? Steer with the rear wheels?" -- and you say you HAVE experience with a front locker? Doesn't make sense to me!

Do you have a front locker now? Based on your argument, you should rip it out.

Man, where's my backup, frontlocker guys? You guys are making me work!

I still want a selectable front/rear lock run-off! Who's up for it! Don't MAKE me go to the TJ forum!

:cheers:
 
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jeepme said:
As far as steering only one time I had a hard time steering and as soon as I put the tranny in Nuetral turned the wheel (effertlessly) and put it back in gear I was off and rollin again.

that is a lie

a NP231 and everyother t-case that i know of locks the front and rear drivesahfts together - meaning that disconecting the engine from the driveshafts wouldt do you a damn thing

if however you meant to say that put the T-case in neutral AND had a 96+ T-case with a true neutral (assuming you have a 231 or 242) that would be feasable.
 
XJ_ranger said:
that is a lie

a NP231 and everyother t-case that i know of locks the front and rear drivesahfts together - meaning that disconecting the engine from the driveshafts wouldt do you a damn thing

if however you meant to say that put the T-case in neutral AND had a 96+ T-case with a true neutral (assuming you have a 231 or 242) that would be feasable.

Pretty bold statement calling out lier. Basicaly when puting the tranny in nuetral you are now taking the torque off of the front drive line there fore releasing if you will the locker and making steering easier. This is not while in motion, this was a situation where I was in a tight spot and stopped put it in nuetral and turned the wheeles and kept goin, and it worked perfectly and i have used this in many tight spots time and time again.
 
HAPYMUDY said:
If you say "If you lock the front and loose traction with the front wheels, what are you going to do? Steer with the rear wheels?" -- and you say you HAVE experience with a front locker? Doesn't make sense to me!

Do you have a front locker now? Based on your argument, you should rip it out.

Yeah, I've still got the front locker in, I just take it easy in the slippery stuff.

You're driving down a road, in the snow, in 4wd with a front locker, at steady throttle. You hit a patch of ice and loose traction. Both front wheels and one rear wheel start spinning. the only wheel with any directional stability is a rear wheel that you have no directional control over, causing you to continue in the same direction with no control. No matter how hard you hit the gas, you aren't going to be able to get enough traction to turn.

With a rear locker you still have a front wheel with directional stability that you can control, allowing you to steer.

As to the reason why mine is still in, the few times that I do loose traction (I baby it in the slippery stuff) I simply let off the gas, the lockers unlock, and I regain control.

It is a lot easier to regain control from the back sliding around than the whole thing sliding sideways.
 
Prepmech said:
Yeah, I've still got the front locker in, I just take it easy in the slippery stuff.

You're driving down a road, in the snow, in 4wd with a front locker, at steady throttle. You hit a patch of ice and loose traction. Both front wheels and one rear wheel start spinning. the only wheel with any directional stability is a rear wheel that you have no directional control over, causing you to continue in the same direction with no control. No matter how hard you hit the gas, you aren't going to be able to get enough traction to turn.

With a rear locker you still have a front wheel with directional stability that you can control, allowing you to steer.

As to the reason why mine is still in, the few times that I do loose traction (I baby it in the slippery stuff) I simply let off the gas, the lockers unlock, and I regain control.

It is a lot easier to regain control from the back sliding around than the whole thing sliding sideways.

Plus, you have that other thing to drive.


:cheers:
 
Prepmech said:
Yeah, I've still got the front locker in, I just take it easy in the slippery stuff.

As to the reason why mine is still in, the few times that I do loose traction (I baby it in the slippery stuff) I simply let off the gas, the lockers unlock, and I regain control.

It is a lot easier to regain control from the back sliding around than the whole thing sliding sideways.

Understood, Prepmech ... this from a guy with experience. On the road I'm with you 100%, let off the gas, take it easy -- and many times it's better to not be in 4WD at all.

Athough we are in agreement how to use a front locker and drive safely on the road in slipper conditions, my point is that off-road, if you had a choice, I'd still choose front locker and be extra careful to stay in 2wd and go slow on snowy/icy roads.
 
Based on Dennisgrimm's original post he finds understeer easier to correct than oversteer. Feel free to argue with him on what he prefers.

A Lockrite seems to be an option that nobody really hates for this application/price/conditions/etc. It's also been suggested that a front LR will produce more understeer than oversteer, so Dennisgrimm should lock the front with a LR . . .

Maybe that'll help . . . but I doubt it.

DR
 
XJ_ranger said:
search around here for wat BrettM said about steering with ihis ARB engaged (same as a fulltime locker when under power)

search around for what anyone has said about turning with 4x4 and a front locker...

Not quite. A locked ARB is a spool (both tires turning at the same speed), a fulltime locker like a detroit, lock rite, etc still allows a certain degree of slippage so the outside and inside tire can turn at slightly different rates in a turn.

On a side note: I don't think Brett is have problems anymore with the ARB locked or unlocked with his hydro assist and I can attest to this. Hydro assist is awesome in the rocks, locked or unlocked and with aired down big ol tires to boot.

Troy
 
Big Red said:
Not quite. A locked ARB is a spool (both tires turning at the same speed), a fulltime locker like a detroit, lock rite, etc still allows a certain degree of slippage so the outside and inside tire can turn at slightly different rates in a turn.

Underpower, the detroit is just like a spool until power is no longer being applied and the tires spin differentially, then it unlocks. The tire can not spin at different rates while locked.
 
basalt51 said:
Underpower, the detroit is just like a spool until power is no longer being applied and the tires spin differentially, then it unlocks. The tire can not spin at different rates while locked.

Sounds right, the detroit is a lot easier in turning as you can get off the gas and the springs will unlock allowing some diff rates. Either way get hydro assist and who cares what you run, steer with ease.

Troy
 
Big Red said:
Either way get hydro assist and who cares what you run, steer with ease.

Troy
On ice and snow it's always easy to turn the steering wheel. It's making the vehicle actually change direction that's the hard part.
 
No comments on the front but with the rear its interesting. When the jeep is just cruising no apparent effect, at slow speeds like turning off your street and going into your driveway you need to almost coast, if you try to power around a sharp turn the rear will push you straight no matter which way the wheels are turned. The rear in my case made driving here in the poconos much better, I find that I use 4wd less which is nice as I find that I'm not constantly shifting my 231 in and out from cleared roads to uncleard roads.
I'm not a fan of the arb or the electrics, both have their problems and seem to fail often, wish they didn't or I'd have one in the front. I need a dependable set of wheels that gets me where I want to go when I need to go and gets me home again so things like that become a major influence.
I like the ox locker concept but I've heard a few horror stories about them from owners, granted that was very few, and no positive feedback but that just may be the number of owners I've talked to.
 
Wow, this thread is gettin out of hand. I'm not gonna say which end is best to lock but I'll throw in my $.02.

1) Everyone here is right for the most part in their reasoning no matter which end they prefer.

2) I'm probably gonna lock the rear of mine simply because most lockers for the 8.25 are compatable with all gear ratios. Where if I lock the front when I finally get around to regearing I will need another new locker.

3) In the Honda world (front wheel drive) a front LSD makes things interesting on even semi slick roads when trying to corner. While my LSD equipped Acura I have now will probably never see snow/ice or even very slippery roads (its a Type R) I have had several honda's on the snow and ice. Even with an "open" transaxle it would power both tires and pull me everywhere I wanted to go. I could just turn the wheen where I wanted to go and the car would go there. Durring our last big snow/ice storm I was driving around everyone else. Of course I was being carefull and not driving like an idiot, more than I can say for a lot of people out there. So take that as you will.

4) We need to realize that every situation (on and off the trail) will differ in which end will work better locked. I think the original poster was more concerned about on road snow/ice than slick trails.

And even if you are only talking about snow/ice covered roads different situations will result better in different setups. Honestly, if slick roads were my main concern for all around best handling I would leave both open and hope I had a 242 with full time 4wd. Sad fact of the matter is that I have a 232 and when the roads are slick this winter I think I would rather be driving my wife's AWD astro van than my XJ.
 
Thanks for all the replies and info. I didn't mean to stir up a whole lot of controversy.

Through all of the debate it sounds like we do have a consensus that adding a locker, front or rear, will help out off-road situations.

From the people that have done an auto locker in the front, it sounds like driving in 2wd renders the front locker invisible.

I have had a lot more experience driving front wheel drive sedans in the snow than 4wd trucks. I find it very easy to correct understeer. By definition understeer means that although the wheel is turned, the vehicle goes straight. I have found that by letting off the go pedal I can quickly regain control a vehicle that is understeering through a corner in a slick situation (unless I have come into that corner WAY too fast).

I was thinking that by putting an auto locker into the front and driving in the snow in 4wd it would behave much like driving a fwd vehicle with a LSD (not the same, I know).

Thanks again for all the info. I think I will go ahead and get a front auto locker and see how it goes. I will post my findings when after driving in the snow here.

To the people that have encouraged locking the rear; I value your opinions and appreciate your input. Although I am sticking to my original plan, at least I am doing so fully informed of the risks.
 
A front automatic locker will be essentially invisible in 2WD.

By way of background (for those who don't know me), I'm 61 years old. Bought my first car with a rear limited slip in 1966, and since then have not owned any rear-wheel drive or 4-wheel drive car or truck that didn't have a REAR limited slip. I live in New England, and we do still get snow and ice here in the winter.

If I had a choice between a traction device in the front or the rear (but not both), I would pick rear. Remember that in snow or on ice, there's little enough traction that a Trac-Lok is effectively as locked as a locker -- except that it doesn't unlock when you let off the power. The deal is this, based on an explanation formulated by the late Mark Donohue:

Any tire generates 'X' amount of traction. Doesn't matter what 'X' is, but X = 100%. That traction is used for three things: (1) Acceleration; (2) Deceleration/braking; and (3) turning/lateral acceleration. That X = 100% can be divided between two of the three forces, but can never exceed 100%.

Obviously, you can't be both accelerating and decelerating at the same time, but you can (and do) accelerate and turn at the same time, or decelerate and turn at the same time. Looking at acceleration and turning, the more of that 100% you use for acceleration, the less is available for turning. The more of it you NEED for turning, the less is available for acceleration (or deceleration). Why do you think people "lose it" in turns on slippery roads? Usually, they go into a corner a bit too fast, hang on until they get scared, then when they hit the brakes they suddenly exceed the 100% of however much traction their tires can generate and ... presto ==> spinout.

Therefore, since my vehicles are all steered using the front wheels, I greatly prefer to keep the front wheels available for steering as much as possible, and to use the rear wheels for providing motive force as much as possible. I find that with even a lowly Trac-Lok in the rear axle, having 4WD is almost superfluous. I almost never need it for driving in snow and ice (on the street) in winter.

Yes, the Trac-Lok (or locker) can generate a bit of oversteer. Since I am accustomed to driving with a feather foot in slippery stuff, oversteer has never been uncontrollable. Also I much prefer oversteer rather than understeer, for two reasons. First, oversteer is far easier to correct, and the correction is more natural and instinctive than for understeer. Second, if I have overcooked it into a corner, with understeer I slide off the road nose-first into whatever obstacle is placed conveniently in my path. With oversteer, I may slide into the obstacle sideways or I may spin out completely and slide into it backward. Either way, I'm probably not going to hit it going as fast as I would head-first, and I'll have more crushable body between me and the object (and no engine to shake hands with my feet).

All of which, I guess, is a long-winded way of saying I vote for locking the rear.
 
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I have a lock right in the front & a no-slip in the rear. I very rarely put the jeep in 4wd while on the road. After installing your locker/lockers find a ice/snow covered area & try them out. You WILL have to adjust your driving style. It may be a little or it may be alot. After some practice you will be fine. JIM.
 
Dennisgrim:

Sounds like you got alot of great advice from lots of people that have experience. I agree ... on-offroad, snow/ice and type of off-road conditions certainly can provide different results.

Once you get your locker in, be sure to report on your findings. I guess this is closer to a Coke/Pepsi argument than one might imagine! Pepsi, by the way :)

I may have to do a "Big Air Systems Challenge" -- front and rear locker, on and off-road tests. Videotaped and online, of course!

Enjoy your new front or rear locker!
 
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