Just thinking

Typical terrier behavior is for them to latch on to something, then shake there heads vigorously left and right.
Some dogs are parallel wanderers through life with people, some consider people as part of the pack.
Hard to explain, some dogs (breeds) are warm to humans, some just tolerate them, but never really get close much (even if they live in the same house), even though they are not particularly against them either. Some (breeds) notice humans more and are more aggressive to wards humans, war dogs, watch dogs etc.
Pit Bulls used to be working dogs, that largely ignored humans, they paid little or no attention to people (except at dinner time), would come when called, if they felt like it. But would take off and want to fight with any dog within sight. Born to fight.
You take a typical Doberman, they watch every move a human makes in there immediate area (it's in the genes). Pit bulls used to notice people as something to walk around, if they were in the way, like a tree.
Somewhere along the line, breeders crossed them with other breeds that notice people more. In German it's called menschenscharf. or people sharp. I doubt they ruined the whole breed, it was kind of a process, but you can't really see the difference.
Germans have been doing the dog thing for a couple of thousand years, much of there literature is really interesting.
I'm not a dog expert either, but have done some study in animal behavior, Canis included. And I'm also old as dirt and remember what Pit Bulls used to be like, they were pretty popular where I grew up.
 
It's the same limited mentality that drives gun control. There are some people who WANT to own vicious dogs. Nowadays those people gravitate to pit bulls. Ban pit bulls and those people will just gravitate to some other breed. Banning particular breeds just puts a band-aid on the symptom and ignores the real problem.
 
dmillion said:
It's the same limited mentality that drives gun control. There are some people who WANT to own vicious dogs. Nowadays those people gravitate to pit bulls. Ban pit bulls and those people will just gravitate to some other breed. Banning particular breeds just puts a band-aid on the symptom and ignores the real problem.

X2
 
The first thing to remember about dogs is:

A dog hangs around because it thinks that you are a dog. Many people talk about their dog thinking of itself as a person. These people are deluded (present company excepted, if you wish to be). It is not within the dog's capacity to think of itself as a human. On the other hand, their ability to extend their pack awareness to humans is what allowed them to hang around humans in the first place. Certainly, many kinds of animals would be attracted to a human settlement, including wolves, coyotes, and jackals. However, it is only dogs that adopted humans as members of their own pack. A wolf can be very tolerant of humans and will even respond, in a Pavlovian fashion, to human mimicry of canid signals but it is never really able to make the same commitment that a dog does.

The second thing to remember about dogs is:

People kept dogs around, not because of the comradrie of the hunt, but because they make a great mobile, self sustaining emergency food source. Their willingness to join in the hunt is a side benefit of the relationship, not the primary benefit. Plus, they will allow themselves to be put to work.

The third thing to remember about dogs is:

Throughout the entire history of the human/dog relationship, humans have never taught dogs even one new trick. All of the "working" traits that breeders have selected are behaviors that already existed. Pointing, soft mouthing, retrieving, guard duty, blah, blah, blah, etc., etc. are all behaviors the species already held within its gene pool. Breeders have, on the other hand, meddled with the natural balance that regulates these behaviors in otherwise uncontrolled populations. For example: When a dominant dog attacks a subordinate dog, the subordinate responds with submissive behaviors (e.g., head down and canted, side lips raised, ears down, tail down, flank exposed, rolling over). In an uncontrolled population, the dominant animal would normally possess an "off switch" gene that would stop its attack once it perceives the submission of the subordinate. In some individuals of some modern breeds, this genetic switch is non-functional. This was useful, historically, for disabling opponents or (when not at war) baiting bears for fun and profit. It doesn't, however, serve any useful function in a family full of children (and is somewhat annoying from the perspective of postal delivery personnel and others who visit your property). How do you tell if your animal possesses an "off switch?" You can't: not until you find out it doesn't. It is also possible that a dog attacking a human may never receive the appropriate off signals from its victim. After all, it is a human being attacked - not a dog. If the human victim cannot mimic the appropriate signals, there is no reason to assume the dog should halt its attack.

The fourth thing to remember about dogs is:

"Nipping" is a natural behavior for dogs. Even for the most loving and devoted family pet, a "gentle" nip may be appropriate, occasionally. In assessing the behavior of your dog, you must differentiate between nipping and a genuine attack. My dog is subordinate to me. I made sure she understood that very early on. From her perspective, my children are the "pups" of the alpha male (and by extension, of the alpha female - my wife [don't tell her I called her alpha female :laugh3: ]). When my son reached into my dog's food bowl and she, quite naturally, nipped his finger, I laid into her like a force 5 tornado. I had her scrambling all over the place until she flopped over and submitted to me. I then drug her back to the bowl, stuck her muscle in and stuck my sons hand in. When she growled at him, I lit into her again. I drug her back again, stuck my son's hand in and, when she didn't growl, had my son lift out some food and feed it to her. All of this took less than five minutes. The result is, she learned that she better not nip the pup of the alpha male, and she learned that when that pup sticks his hand into her bowl, she still gets to eat the food. If she had not been able to learn this lesson, I would have put her down - pure and simple. From the dog's perspective, at no time is one of my "pups" responsible for causing a nipping incident. The dog is always beaten for nipping. On the side, the child is punished ('though not beaten) for mistreatment and admonished to have respect for an animal and not tease or cause injury. Both are taught respect, although both are in no way equal.

The fifth thing to remember about dogs is:

They are dogs: not people. They do not have the rights of humans. They are not as important as your own children, or the neighbors' children, or even the postman. They sometimes might not even have the same value as other property. When one of our dogs would not stop chasing our neighbor's Angus calves, it was put down. We buried it, with all appropriate tears, next to it's predicesors under the peach tree. Dogs are property and (if the local laws make any sense) should be subject to the same liability provisions as any other property. If you are negligent in your vehicle's maintenance and the park-lock slips (Ala '63 Dodge 330) and it rolls off of your property and causes damage, you are liable. If your dog leaves your control and causes damage, you should be liable. If your dog injures anyone legally on your property, you should be liable. Please note: I said, legally on your property. Despite the tendency in claims courts, I believe if someone enters your property with intend, then they are on their own. However, one must remember that someone entering your property "unwittingly" might have a claim against you for negligent battery (so goes the tort system). You can't claim freedom from responsibility on the basis that your dog acted on its own. If it's your dog, it's your responsibility.

So, should a community ban a breed wholesale? Pretty dumb really. Not all individuals of a breed are dangerous. Also, any individual animal can be taught to be vicious, no matter its geneology. I don't understand why owners cannot be held responsible for their own animals. If the costs of owning a vicious animal were higher, there would be fewer of them in the population. At the same time, stiffer penalties would deter malicious training or mistreatment of otherwise normal animals. It's the same mentality as "ban all guns," "never cut another tree," "don't wear any animal products," blah, blah, blah.

On the subject of dangerous breeds - My sister is a veteranarian. The breed she fears the most is the St. Bernard. She will not allow one in her exam room unless the owner agrees to permit sedation. The breed that has bit her the most (aside from cats) is the cocker spaniel: partly because there are so many of the little drop-kicks.

hijack: has the SPCA/PETA seen this smiley - hasta . I'm surprised they haven't banned it as promoting a wrong relationship with our equine neighbors.
 
I like these dogs.
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8Mud said:
A buddy had a dog that reached over and bite my ass, kind of a dominanace thing.

My sister had a mare that would reach out and bite my ass every chance she got. We didn't consider it aggresion. She did it because it was funny as hell to watch me hop around. Horses get stupid bored and do shait to break up the monotony.

A friend had a german shepard bitch. She knew me and was never anything but friendly and submissive. One day she had a litter of pups. When they were old enough to venture out of the den, I went to visit. She was chained to her house and the pups were all tumbling and wrestling around her as she lay on a pillow, half in-half out of the house. I approached slowly. She got up, came out to the end of her chain and smelled my hand. She wagged her tail and turned to go back to her bed. As she went, her chain swept one of her pups off its feet. It yelped and she spun and came for me in a flash. I skipped away and she the end of her chain. She missed me but shredded a 1-inch square out of my pants - right over my left butt cheek. She checked on her pup, saw that it was OK and came back to me. I put out my hand to smell and all was well again. I wouldn't call her vicious (even though the whole thing was her fault - it was her own chain after all). Even so, she was on a chain for a reason. An unknowing child who ran up to play with her pups might not have faired as well as my pants.
 
XJDreaming.
While I agree with most of what you say, selective breeding has reinforced some traits, that pretty much, breed true. You can expect certain breeds tendencies to surface. Some behavior, you can train around or reinforce desirable behavior and scold undesirable behavior.
As an example the Ibiza dogs, I can't spell the proper name. Very much like Spanish hunting dogs, which are very much like Grey Hounds.
You walk into a yard with an Ibiza (or an Egyptian Temple dog) and they may or may not slightly brush your finger with there nose. Other than that, they will pretty much studiously ignore you. The trait is listed as Noble, whatever that means.
You go near a Munsterlander or a Springer Spaniel and you can expect a big deal greeting and lots of affection.
I really believe the breeders are the ones who tried to ruin the Pitt Bull and Bull Terrier.
I really doubt, 97% of the Munsterlanders could ever be trained to attack or be vicious. Though dogs also have there share of psychos.
 
Spudboy said:
I'm no expert by any means, but it occurs to me that most Pitbull stories I have read talk about the dog biting and not letting go, where my limited experience has been the other dogs will bite and then run off. So while bite frequency may be the same or worse for other breeds, actual bodily damage might be worse with the pitbull. Could be totally wrong on this, would like to learn more.

Spudboy
My Weimaraner typically goes for the flanks, then grabs the neck and chokes the animal to death, then he opens the stomach and starts eating from the arshole in.
He is also trained as a personal protection dog, he doesn't do the grab the arm thing, he attacks the flanks (hips/ass), I doubt he would finish the process with a human, but I sure as heck never let it get that far.
Funny though, I would have no fear of him biting anybody, if I wasn't around. Except in the car or behind our fence.
I really didn't train him to do this, 90% of it, is in the genes.
My Jack Russel (pretty much a mini Pit Bull) grabs a mouth full of meat and keeps working at it, till she gets a chunk out. Kind of like a shark. It's almost like she wants to shake an animal to death.
I had a German Shepard, also a trained personal protection dog. Female and smart. She decided, who needed to be bitten (how hard and how long) and often had better judgment about the whole thing than I did.
My Beagle Rotweiler mix actually a breed, used in Wild Boar hunting, was a dope dog, that went a little nuts. I used him for what he was breed for, but he was always a bit nuts. I asked a breeder what the problem was and he said the dog was breed to be stupid and aggressive, just what you need in a dog that is expected to go into a thicket after a wild pig.
I once kept pack of 8 dogs, you can really see the dynamics of the whole thing in a pack and see how the different breeds use different born talents to get the job done. For me it was hunting Coyotes. I had nose dogs, speed dogs, attack dogs and killing dogs with a smart old bitch Cocker Spaniel (she could climb a tree, almost a good as a cat) leading the whole circus.
 
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XJ Dreamin' said:
So, should a community ban a breed wholesale? Pretty dumb really. Not all individuals of a breed are dangerous. Also, any individual animal can be taught to be vicious, no matter its geneology. I don't understand why owners cannot be held responsible for their own animals. If the costs of owning a vicious animal were higher, there would be fewer of them in the population. At the same time, stiffer penalties would deter malicious training or mistreatment of otherwise normal animals. It's the same mentality as "ban all guns," "never cut another tree," "don't wear any animal products," blah, blah, blah.

This is what I'm saying. I just have a hard time understanding the law makers in Denver. Banning the breed in a city will never happen. I met a woman from Denver that has a Therapy Pit that tons of kids love to spend time with b/c she takes their mind off the horrible Chemo treatments if for just a little bit each week. The tragedy in this is that that dog will be killed or re-located. Do you think the drug dealing POS or gang banger will obey the rules? Pits will still be in the hands of (or running freely) owners that shouldn't be using the oxygen in the world. They will not responsibly care for the animal, they will use, maybe even distribute illicit drugs (which the same law makers said are illegal), they will carry weapons w/out a CCW (again illegal).
I just get fired up. I don't really have the need for a gun in the small town I'm in now but if I did...I would take the appropriate steps necessary to make sure that I obeyed the laws...it's how I brought myself up. I don't drink and drive because it would endanger others (forget about myself). Same with the drugs. I take every precaution to make sure that my animal is not only protected from other people but that all people are safe from her. She doesn't run the neighborhood and jump up on folks when she meets them. I think it's a shame that this is what it's come to. The pit problems will continue to exist EVERYWHERE. People like me that live in Denver will not break the law and house an illegal animal. So...what's left...sh!tty representations of the breed. Dogs that aren't socialized, fed, given shots, etc.
Yes...when pits bite they WILL do damage. Yesterdays news of the 5 pits that attacked two kids in the Springs was ridiculous. They were running around free. The neighbors say they were mis-treated, not fed properly and used to finding their own food. So what happens? The dogs get taken away for observations and the owner can get away. She'll get more, they'll get killed and no one learns a darn thing. Except the public gets to hear about another "attack". They'd never think of doing a story that reflects a positive note (nature of journalism). How many other dog bites do you think happened in the Springs yesterday? I used to work in an ER and I bet the pit incident was not the only one. It might have been the only one that got reported. It's surely the only one worthy of reporting on the stinkin' news. I understand it's their job.
I can't tell you how many people come up and pet my dog and have a positive experience only to find out what breed she is. The reactions are priceless. "She's so sweet." It's b/c I don't chain her up in the backyard and I know everything that she's been exposed to since 8 weeks.
OK...I'm gonna take a deep breath now and eat my sandwich.
 
In the whole scheme of things, I concider Pit Bull attacks to rate well below ladders and cars as a danger, probably below choking on a piece of food, maybe slightly above getting hit by lightening.
The city council could probably save many more lives by requiring child gates on all second floor windows and above. And could save a whole bunch of lives, by outlawing ladders.
People often seem to get ate up by the dumb act.
Here in Germany they require an aggresion test (after 15 months old) and insurance on the fighting breeds. Which I concider to be excessive, but at least somewhat reasonable.
 
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I tend to follow both Mud's and XJD's tpe of reasoning, especially on the property issue.

In our area, most of the dogs run free, but our family and one other have slways made a point to keep our dogs fenced in, and never off the leash. We knew our Springer would never attack, but she protected ver ywell, and we wanted to avoid confrontations.

One of the free roaming dogs in our neighborhood got into our yard one day, and was trying to attack our Springer. At this time, she was around 12 years old, arthritic, and blind. When I got outside and saw what was happening, and kicked the crap out of the other dog, doing my best to kill it. Had I been able to find a gun, I would have shot it. This was jsut a mix breed, that was not contained and controlled.

A friend of mind stabbed a pit to death with a kitchen knife because it got into his yard and attacked his Irish Setter.

OUr close family friend spent some time in a hospital after his St. Bernard attacked him. This guy has Ridgebacks, Danes and a Mastiff, but the SB thought it fitting to attack him out of the blue one day. The dog took some chunks out of him, but opposable thumbs won again when he choked the dog to death.

Three different breeds, should they all be banned? Not hardly.

My current dog, a Springer/Lab mix knows that my wife and I are the Alphas. We have cage trained her since day one, and have established our dominance. She knows that she can play and nip at me, but not with my wife. She also knows that when she doesnt respond properly, she gets yanked in the air by the scruff of her neck, and she submits.

As was said, dogs are animals, pack animals, and need the heirarchy of a pack to understand who is in charge.

Fergie

PS- Anyone got a good way to prevent a dog from jumping up on to people and other things?
 
Train them young. Make them sit when they greet, give them a treat. They will eventually sit in front of everybody.
I have a bad back and don't bend over for my dogs, they jump on everybody, Bad habit, but not the worst by far.
My Weimaraner greats all women with a nuzzle in the crotch, a habit I've never tried to break him of. :laugh3:
 
Fergie said:
PS- Anyone got a good way to prevent a dog from jumping up on to people and other things?

When I took a canine course with my dog they highly recommended using the pinch collars. Not a choker but the kind where they feel nothing until they pull or until you give them a little tug and then the blunt points rotate until they contact the throat region. Like the name implies, the choker will choke the dog. The one I use does not harm the windpipe. With a dog as strong as mine, I can't use anything else. She'll choke herself with a regular collar. In class we actually had to put one on our thigh and see how much pressure to apply to the dog.
So...when I was training her to not jump on people, I always made sure that her collar and leash were on if someone came over to the house or we were walking. When she goes to jump up...you just give a little pop. Mine quickly learned that when she heard the jingling, she stopped b/c she knew what was coming. Also...after I was able to trust her more and have her off the leash when friends came over, I always told her to sit. I was taught that it helps to give her a command to follow other than "off". When she sits, then have a parade. Mine worked well for food rewards too. I'd have a bowl of treats and people knew to grab one when they came in and go through the routine and then reward her with food and petting. HTH.
 
8Mud said:
XJDreaming.
While I agree with most of what you say, selective breeding has reinforced some traits, that pretty much, breed true. You can expect certain breeds tendencies to surface. Some behavior, you can train around or reinforce desirable behavior and scold undesirable behavior.
As an example the Ibiza dogs, I can't spell the proper name. Very much like Spanish hunting dogs, which are very much like Grey Hounds.
You walk into a yard with an Ibiza (or an Egyptian Temple dog) and they may or may not slightly brush your finger with there nose. Other than that, they will pretty much studiously ignore you. The trait is listed as Noble, whatever that means.
You go near a Munsterlander or a Springer Spaniel and you can expect a big deal greeting and lots of affection.
I really believe the breeders are the ones who tried to ruin the Pitt Bull and Bull Terrier.
I really doubt, 97% of the Munsterlanders could ever be trained to attack or be vicious. Though dogs also have there share of psychos.

No, 8Mud - we pretty much agree right down the line. I just didn't get into much detail: stayed very general. What we're talking about is variations within a gene pool. Breeders have reinforced traits considered useful: whether for babysitting your kids or weighing down war horses; retrieving water fowl or latching onto a badger in its burrow (European badger that is - don't know if I'd want to try than with the western badger). Anyway, the point is, for the most part we're talking about genetically coded behaviors. It is true that the dog has a certain capacity to learn, or be conditioned as my highschool science teacher insisted. He maintained that only humans learned: animals were conditioned. However, it is generally difficult to train a dog against a behavior that it has inherited.

We had a dog that found it difficult to distinquish between cats and rabbits, except that the cats didn't run as fast, if they ran at all. My dad would chase that dog around and around, whipping the tar out of her. Finally, she quit killing cats, although she continued to consume 1-2 rabbits a week. For a time, we didn't have any cats. Not the dog's fault: that's a different story having to do with banty chickens. Eventually, after the chickens were all eaten by 'possums, we adopted a house cat from some friends who were moving. One day I was sitting on the couch and the dog had her head in my lap while I scratched her ears. That cat came along and jumped right up in my lap. A potential disaster, with me in the middle, but all the dog did was roll one eye around to stare at the cat, give it a low growl and walk away. She dearly hated that cat but it just wasn't worth it to her to up and kill it. Although she did damage a couple of cats later on, she never did ever kill anymore. She had been successfully trained against her instinct, but it took alot of training to do it.

Your point of traits that breed true are right in line with my thinking. I appologize if my previous post implied anything different. In fact my original intent was to say that certain breeds were created precisely to perpetuate a particular reinforcement within that breed. I remember a sporting show where they were out shooting some fowl. They had some nice pointers with them and after they had shot a couple of brace, the host takes you off to visit a breeder of champion pointers. The scene shifts to a farm setting with the host and a guy in coveralls, a straw hat and a corncob pipe. The host implores this guy to show the audiance how he produces champion pointers. This guy invites the host over to a run where there are two or three litters worth of pointer pups. He opens the gate and all the pups tumble out. He takes his pipe out and points to one pup in particular: one pup out of the whole lot who isn't tumbling around playing: one pup who is set, stock still in a perfect point aimed at one of his litter mates. The guy points at that pup and says, "That one's a champion. The others you sell with papers." I chit you not! That's what he said: right on camera. Talk about reinforcement. After that, the host went on to show how to train one of those other "with papers" pups how to point.

The real issue is variability. Which individual animal is going to have the "breed" trait? Which rotty will bite your kid in the face? Which St. Bernard will turn on it's vet? No way to tell until it happens. No way to tell with any other individual animal, whatever the breed (or even Heinz 57). Does that mean eliminate the entire breed, or all dogs, wholesale? That's just dumb. Could a vicious animal, in another setting, have turned out docile? Absolutely. Could Jeffery Dahmer have turned out different in a different setting? I'm not so sure. We'll never know, and that's the real problem. Each attack is an anectdote, never to be repeated. It's nearly impossible to make reliable predictions about any individual out of a population of millions with nothing better than stories for data.
 
One thing I've always done with my dogs is to teach them hand commands, you pretty much have to with a hunter. The last thing you want to do is start yelling in the woods.
The hand commands often work better than the verbal commands. Dogs are like kids they get a little stubborn and if you start raising your voice in stages to reinforce the command, sooner or later you will be yelling all the commands.
I give them the hand command, if they don't listen, I repeat the command with a little more authority, if they still don't listen, I hold one finger up the next step is a boot in the rear. For the original training, I use chunks of cheese. They only get the boot, when they choose to ignore and understand exactly what I want. Dogs flanks/hips are tender, so excessive force isn't required and can actually damage a dog.
Hunting dogs are different, if I put the leash on my dog, he automatically knows to follow a scent and my job is to hold onto the leash while he follows it.
 
DrMoab said:
I like these dogs.
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Oh, man! We had a dog with teeth like that! A shepard/collie bitch crossed to a big ol' dumb yella hound dog. The pup came out in a collie pattern of shepard hair in mustard yellow and white, with teeth just like the one on the left. Her overbite was so bad she had to scoop her food up with her lower jaw like a shovel. We advertized the litter as free puppies, come and get 'em, but nobody took her. They would get out of their car, look at her and climb right back in. We had her 6 years until heart worms got her. Dumbest damn dog I have ever met, and the ugliest!
 
fdsa487 said:
My dog is a thread to society...all 4 pounds of em.

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Caption this picture :laugh3:
 
Maybe the Germans have the right idea, they started out with a total fighting dog ban, then modified the procedure to an aggression test at 15 months, required insurance in case they made a mistake. And required a special tax, to cover the costs of the whole process.
It seems they are trying to fix the breed, by culling the undesirable traits in an organized way.
My general feeling, is the Germans over regulate most everything, but they may be on the right track with this one.
 
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