It has begun -Dial Up Shoot yourself-

[JamesD]

THANK YOU. You see where I am coming from. I do have access to alot of resources and I receieved the axles dirt cheap so this is why I am using them at least for the build process. The Dana 50 will come out eventually but to build and get moving it is fine. I have alot of time to devote to this and required resources so that is why I am going as cheap as possible because I can. I know my welds are not pretty but they hold just fine. I know there are better platforms but I relly like the XJ and I will do it. I know that there will be trial and error and this is why I have cut everything off twice so I am open to suggestion but please back it so that I will see relevance. And please don't just post saying your dumb for doing this go get a bolt on and 35's you know why because I'm not regardless what you say and you are wasting my and your time. And thanks again 87xjco for understanding my point of view.

 

[vetteboy]

I don't know if I agree that it can't be done cheap. Not likely to end up cheap, but not impossible. But you almost would have to work or own a junkyard to have access to all the cheap used parts you would need.

But it will take a huge amount of labor and talent and many of the things you'll be doing to make an XJ that capable, are prone to failure even with the best fabrication work.

If you already have one ton axles, access to cheap steel and if you are a good smart welder/fabricator. That would save alot of money. If you're starting with a good running XJ to begin with, that would help save money.

I still stand by my original statement:

Cheap, reliable, and big-trail-worthy. Pick two.

On my build, I got the D60, 14ff, NV4500, NP231, and a large amount of steel for free. And I still have put an obscene amount of money in it and it's not done.

 

[JamesD]

I understand. This is not my first go around with custom vehicles. I seem to always end up with way more money in it than it is worth but now that I have teh resources I can hopefully get out cheaper. I am not trying to do this for like an under $1000 build I have alot more than that tied up and all I have so far is a cut up jeep with some parts laying around it. I am just not able to spend 60K like some people I know for full bolt on everything. A little back story on that it's an 06 Unlimited with fullly custom everything extended Dynatrac axles you name it it has it. What's awesome is smacking a rock with a brand new jeep with 600 miles on it LOL. But back to the subject at hand I know the delimma of Cheap Reliable and trail worthy and that is why I went the route that I did. You can't get much more simple of a design than leaves and it is rather cheap so I am trying to get some of all three. And trust me vette I wish I had the parts that you do and the time invested ion fab but I have to start somewhere and this is where I am at.

 

[Roxtar]

I AM NOT BUILDING THIS TO RUN SUPERLIFT!!!!!!!! This is why I asked for constructive criticism not someone bashing me for an idea because it is out of the ordibnary just because of you in all of your glory have never ran a larger tire on an XJ does not mean it cannot be done. I am building this regardless of what you say. I am asking for help not someone saying it can be done. This is good though because people like you drive me even more to have sleepless night of working on this just to prove you wrong. It can be done and it will be done and it has been done before.

No one is bashing you for origional thinking, least of all, me (anyone who's seen my rig will testify to it's origionality).
You're getting bashed for poor choices and design work.
No one is saying you can't build an XJ for 44s, just that it's foolish to try to build one for 44s on the cheap, hence this comment:

You can't afford to build an XJ to run 40s. Sorry.

Why do you think you need 44s? From what I've read from you so far I'm guessing it's because they just look so damn cool.
I've been on the trails with underbuilt, poser rigs; it doesn't make for an enjoyable day, the basis for this comment:

How often are your 44" buddies going to invite you along if they have to drag your broken ass out every trip?

Running 44s, or 40s, on a rig that isn't built to handle them is a great way to make yourself very unpopular with those running with you.

I am building this regardless of what you say.

Then by all means, have at it.
Best of luck.
Sounds like CRASH hit it pretty dead on.

 

[JamesD]

I just would like everyone to be supportive an dnot say IT CANNOT BE DONE or SHOULD NOT BE DONE. I am not running large tires for the awe factor I am wanting them to use. I know it will be expensive but I am just not one to go out and pay to have someone do it or someone cut everything out and hand it to me in a bag. I am calling it budget because I am doing eveyything myself I am not saying cheap because I won't spend the money for what I need but I just don't want to pay for something when I can do it myself hence the cheapness factor.

Breaking stuff is part of wheeling and you all know that so it is expected that I will have the occasional break down and when it does then I will determine why and correct it as to not do it again. I am not trying to be a douche about this I am just looking for support not people telling me I shouldn't do it or it cannot be done.

 

[Roxtar]

I just would like everyone to be supportive an dnot say IT CANNOT BE DONE or SHOULD NOT BE DONE. I am not running large tires for the awe factor I am wanting them to use. I know it will be expensive but I am just not one to go out and pay to have someone do it or someone cut everything out and hand it to me in a bag. I am calling it budget because I am doing eveyything myself I am not saying cheap because I won't spend the money for what I need but I just don't want to pay for something when I can do it myself hence the cheapness factor.

Breaking stuff is part of wheeling and you all know that so it is expected that I will have the occasional break down and when it does then I will determine why and correct it as to not do it again. I am not trying to be a douche about this I am just looking for support not people telling me I shouldn't do it or it cannot be done.

Believe it or not, those saying, "IT SHOULD NOT BE DONE" are being supportive.
It's like telling your child not to play in the street.
As far as cheap goes, the statement, "I've got $100 into it so I've got to use it", goes a long way toward explaining what the term, "budget" means to you.
I built an HP44 completely by myself, having the advantages of owning a machine shop.
It cost me around $1800 hard cash and I wouldn't consider trying to run 44s with it.
No one's saying you're being a douche; you're just acting like a spoiled child.
"I want what I want and that's all that matters."
Fine, go ahead.
Just don't ask for help and then complain when confronted by truth.
If you want cheerleaders there's a great website for them:
www.jeepsunlimited.com

 

[djblade311]

k guys, JamesD has been warned about this choices and he is asking for some feedback about his build. Its his rig and he can do what he wants but as long as he has been warned about the consequences, then its his problem if it breaks down on the trail. I know we all want to share our own experiences and we want to make sure that you (JamesD) dont make any costly mistakes.

everyone, let's unwind the panties and not take anything personal.

James, please understand that some of us cannot be supportive if we don't agree with the methods used due to safety concerns. Feedback is feedback, whether its supportive or unsupportive. Do with it what you will.

 

[CRASH]

So, did you grind the frame to get rid of the zinc coating?

You keep insisting your welds are strong and that they will hold. If you skipped the grinding step, then you are incorrect.

Questions:

What wheelbase are you shooting for? That will determine spring placement. If you are shooting for moving the rear axle back about 5 inches, I'd use an MJ pack and bolt it to the stock front hanger location. Since you've cut it off, you'll need to rebuild it with some box tubing or a pre-fab spring hanger like you can get from any roundy-round racing fab shop. This spot is literally the toughest, most reinforced spot on an XJ, except for maybe the frame LCA bracket. Use this spot wisely.

Oh, and throw away those POS Chevy springs and use the correct spring for your weight bias, wheelbase and optimal mounting locations. Trying to use a spring that doesn't fit and doesn't flex is just plain silly.

 

[JamesD]

I am not looking for cheerleaders. I am looking for ideas and suggestions and this whole debate has gotten me nowhere. I created this thread to gain insight as to where I need to go with this and mainly what I get is either with something else or change entirely what I am doing. I am sorry that I do not agree and if you have nothing supportive to say then keep it to yourself. You are not telling me anything different than what I have heard already. I think there have been maybe 4 posts in this entire thread that have shed any light on the subject. I am not here to argue I am just searching for answers. I don't understand how I am being spoiled in that I do nothing different than anyone else in wanting a fun vehicle without spending excessive $$$. I am sorry that I am different but do not ruin a thread because you do not agree. This thread now has no purpose what so ever and for all I am concerned they can LOCK IT UP because this thread is providing no value or information just drama.

 

[dallas xjs]

dearest james...i have carfully read all of the thread....here is my best advise...build your vision..keep it on a budget..and make good welds..now on the superlift park..we run 38s 39s all day and hit all the black diamonds...i have been there 4 times...the last time i rode with a guy there,he had 44s...be honest it took all the fun out of the trails...good luck bro..

 

[vetteboy]

This spot is literally the toughest, most reinforced spot on an XJ, except for maybe the frame LCA bracket. Use this spot wisely.

This is very true - I discovered this when building mine, and it became the cage tie-in point for the c-pillar hoop, and one of the main bolt locations for the rear 4-link crossmember. I also agree with the MJ pack idea, I've seen that done and it seems to work well.

I am not looking for cheerleaders. I am looking for ideas and suggestions and this whole debate has gotten me nowhere. I created this thread to gain insight as to where I need to go with this and mainly what I get is either with something else or change entirely what I am doing. I am sorry that I do not agree and if you have nothing supportive to say then keep it to yourself. You are not telling me anything different than what I have heard already. I think there have been maybe 4 posts in this entire thread that have shed any light on the subject. I am not here to argue I am just searching for answers. I don't understand how I am being spoiled in that I do nothing different than anyone else in wanting a fun vehicle without spending excessive $$$. I am sorry that I am different but do not ruin a thread because you do not agree. This thread now has no purpose what so ever and for all I am concerned they can LOCK IT UP because this thread is providing no value or information just drama.

Honestly, I think if we just all kept quiet and didn't say anything negative, your thread would be entirely composed of worthless replies and you'd be bitching about no one was giving any suggestions.

Here's my final attempts at tech contribution for this thread, it's quickly becoming a tech black hole.

For the rear: MJ packs and the stock hangers as CRASH suggested, or relocated mounts as in RockControlXJ's thread. Either way 12" of lift is not necessary for 44's (especially with as little flex as you'll have with those chevy springs) and you're obviously not afraid of the sawzall, so use that to your advantage. That much lift will only lead to more problems (and more expense!) in other areas. Remember that the forward leaf spring bolt and hanger is where ALL the propulsive force from the rear axle is transferred to the vehicle, so it's nearly impossible to "over-reinforce" this area. Keep in mind too that with the amount of unsprung weight you'll have from those tires, if you ever lift a tire off the ground once the flex is maxed out, that's a shit-ton of weight hanging from one corner that'll try and twist the chassis to pieces, especially if you're under power. Having the cage connect in to the spring mounts will help this tremendously.

In the middle: here's where you're going to start hating life. That Peugeot trans is not worth its weight in scrap and I'd bet a medium sum of money that it's pretty well toast as it is. Coupled with a 21-spline NP231 and a non-HO motor, I really don't see this as an effective means of rotating 44s. The Peugeot that I ran briefly (because I got it for 'free' and needed a transmission) crapped out after 8k miles. Synchros disappeared, 5th gear dissolved, and reverse worked sometimes. If there's ANYTHING you need to build that involves working around this transmission, just scrap it and wait til you get something better. I can guarantee you that you'll be swapping it out within months if you leave it there. The stock 4.0 has a little bit of grunt to it but don't expect to be able to maintain wheelspeed in mud, especially since you'll be limited by both the torque capacity and gearing options for the Dana 50. Which leads me to:

The front. Poor axle choice that will end up costing you both time and money in the end. As I recall, you were having issues with the uber-wide spring spacing of the Ford axle. This means you'll have some pretty custom stuff going on the frame side that'll either require extensive modification should you upgrade to an older HP60, say, or you might find yourself having to modify the new axle in some bastard ways to make it mount up. Either way, you'll have to put time into it at least if you want decent pinion angle and caster with 12" lift (aka cutting/rotating knuckles, thus making it utterly un-resellable as well). My advice is to cut your losses, re-instate the eBay auction you had going for it while it's still an OEM replacement, and find something more suitable from the start.

You'll also have to consider steering at some point, and with 44's on an XJ with that much lift I'd strongly advise full hydraulic. For the health of the unibody, the steering links, and your arms. Trying to fit a mechanical drag link at a decent angle will be definitely impossible with a Dana 50 and still not a good idea on anything else. So now you have to buy a new steering pump, double ended ram (preferably), orbital valve (load reactive, preferably), filter and reservoir, and a bunch of lines. All to connect to steering knuckles that will most certainly :bawl: with the kind of force needed to point those tires.

Just some thoughts. Use them at your own discretion.

 

[CRASH]

Stop the hate.

This is very true - I discovered this when building mine, and it became the cage tie-in point for the c-pillar hoop, and one of the main bolt locations for the rear 4-link crossmember. I also agree with the MJ pack idea, I've seen that done and it seems to work well.



Honestly, I think if we just all kept quiet and didn't say anything negative, your thread would be entirely composed of worthless replies and you'd be bitching about no one was giving any suggestions.

Here's my final attempts at tech contribution for this thread, it's quickly becoming a tech black hole.

For the rear: MJ packs and the stock hangers as CRASH suggested, or relocated mounts as in RockControlXJ's thread. Either way 12" of lift is not necessary for 44's (especially with as little flex as you'll have with those chevy springs) and you're obviously not afraid of the sawzall, so use that to your advantage. That much lift will only lead to more problems (and more expense!) in other areas. Remember that the forward leaf spring bolt and hanger is where ALL the propulsive force from the rear axle is transferred to the vehicle, so it's nearly impossible to "over-reinforce" this area. Keep in mind too that with the amount of unsprung weight you'll have from those tires, if you ever lift a tire off the ground once the flex is maxed out, that's a shit-ton of weight hanging from one corner that'll try and twist the chassis to pieces, especially if you're under power. Having the cage connect in to the spring mounts will help this tremendously.

In the middle: here's where you're going to start hating life. That Peugeot trans is not worth its weight in scrap and I'd bet a medium sum of money that it's pretty well toast as it is. Coupled with a 21-spline NP231 and a non-HO motor, I really don't see this as an effective means of rotating 44s. The Peugeot that I ran briefly (because I got it for 'free' and needed a transmission) crapped out after 8k miles. Synchros disappeared, 5th gear dissolved, and reverse worked sometimes. If there's ANYTHING you need to build that involves working around this transmission, just scrap it and wait til you get something better. I can guarantee you that you'll be swapping it out within months if you leave it there. The stock 4.0 has a little bit of grunt to it but don't expect to be able to maintain wheelspeed in mud, especially since you'll be limited by both the torque capacity and gearing options for the Dana 50. Which leads me to:

The front. Poor axle choice that will end up costing you both time and money in the end. As I recall, you were having issues with the uber-wide spring spacing of the Ford axle. This means you'll have some pretty custom stuff going on the frame side that'll either require extensive modification should you upgrade to an older HP60, say, or you might find yourself having to modify the new axle in some bastard ways to make it mount up. Either way, you'll have to put time into it at least if you want decent pinion angle and caster with 12" lift (aka cutting/rotating knuckles, thus making it utterly un-resellable as well). My advice is to cut your losses, re-instate the eBay auction you had going for it while it's still an OEM replacement, and find something more suitable from the start.

You'll also have to consider steering at some point, and with 44's on an XJ with that much lift I'd strongly advise full hydraulic. For the health of the unibody, the steering links, and your arms. Trying to fit a mechanical drag link at a decent angle will be definitely impossible with a Dana 50 and still not a good idea on anything else. So now you have to buy a new steering pump, double ended ram (preferably), orbital valve (load reactive, preferably), filter and reservoir, and a bunch of lines. All to connect to steering knuckles that will most certainly :bawl: with the kind of force needed to point those tires.

Just some thoughts. Use them at your own discretion.

 

[87xjco]

This thread now has no purpose what so ever and for all I am concerned they can LOCK IT UP because this thread is providing no value or information just drama.

Oh come on, don't take your toy's and go home. We will try and be more supportive.

This thread has alot of good value, it certainely has entertainment value and educational value also, it's been held as an example in the Den and we are looking forward to your new fab. ideas. Perhaps many generations will look back on this design and build with awe. Don't take that away. They called DaVinci and Sir Isaac Newton crazy and they persevered, and they showed everyone they were right. You may be able to do the same.

Good luck to you sir, I salute your faith and spirit!!

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

James,

Check out My buddie Josh's rear leaf mounts, He used jeffs brackets from ballisticsfabrication. Yes its an FJ40 so it has a frame but pics are similar to what you could do . Frame end under the frame shackle end off bumper.

 

[CRASH]

This thread now has no purpose what so ever and for all I am concerned they can LOCK IT UP because this thread is providing no value or information just drama.

This is just getting good.

Now, post some pics of your girlfriend, I'll move the thread to the Den, and we can really get the fun started.

 

[shortxjdoug]

listen just keep doin what your doin and build it RIGHT and STRONG as you can, yes 44 is gonna be a rough tire on the xj but dammit i give you props for stickin with your build and what you want to do. If nobody would have kept going bigger than none of us would be here because the first guy never would have put 31's on a perfectly good grocery getter and then driven it in the dirt. IMO it can be done and i have seen larger tires than 44's on an xj (53 michelins) granted those were built with a one off frame and rockwells but it still can be done. Just remember this is coming from the same guys who say you can't run a locked d-35 on 31's without catastrophe (i have pics and video to prove that wrong) the key is to sift through the village wisdom and find the real building tips, some good things have been said here especially regarding your previous ideas at spring mounting and the body side spring hangers. My main concern is power, you are keeping the 4.0 drivetrain aren't you? the thing is that even with the deepest axle gears you can find, and even if you ran a doubler setup, you will be hard pressed to push a 44 around with a 150-ish HP drivetrain. Honestly IMO i think you should scale it down to a well setup flexible XJ specific suspension on 38's or 40's. the xj when setup properly is an impressive vehicle and with a good driver at the wheel can follow a group of much more built vehicles. In fact just last weekend my little xj on 31's with a front locker followed toyota buggies on 36's and our trail leader ran a ranger buggy on 40's, and i only got pulled once i hung with the pack very well. thats just my .02 on the the whole thing and what experience out wheeling has taught me. Good luck with the build, and don't worry about the criticism here just try to sift through what people have decided is the be all end all correct way and find the real building tips because there is a lot of skill and experience around here...

 

[vetteboy]

This is just getting good.

Now, post some pics of your girlfriend, I'll move the thread to the Den, and we can really get the fun started.

The funny thing is, it appears as though he's almost been inspired by the perfect rig described in your signature.

 

[CRASH]

Except with less power, reliability and flex.

 

[BrettM]

James, you are ignoring a lot of good advice. 44s do not come cheap, even if you find great deals and build everything yourself. If all you want is support for your ideas, you are in the wrong place; people here aren't going to support ideas destined to fail miserably.

 

[87xjco]

Now, post some pics of your girlfriend, I'll move the thread to the Den, and we can really get the fun started.

ROFL