It has begun -Dial Up Shoot yourself-

[vetteboy]

I understand that you all are "trying" to help but*&$^&^$%UY^%$^&$# when someone tells me to cut everything up that I have done when they told me to do it I get kind of pissed. I don't have an extensive budget like some do and I am working with what I have and if they don't like it I will gladly take donations of whatver their endless budget allows. I understand that I am unorthodox in sorts but instead of basically saying I am a %())&$%$ idiot and telling me to start over after I have searched and this is what I ended up with, I only ask for ways to help me improve not a total reconstruction. I did search and I did ask alot of questions and you know what I ended up with is everyone telling me for simplicity use in boarded leafs all the way around and plate the "frame" and you know what, I am doing exactly that. CRASH you even said it yourself so I don't understand why what I am doing is so wrong. Disregard my welding capabilities because I trust it and I know it will hold. And regardless what you say I have taken your suggestions to heart or I wouldn't be doing what you said. I know the whole conv. about the Dana 50 but you know what I have 100 in it so it has to work for right now. I am not looking for praise as to what I do I am just looking for suggestion as to make it better and I don't understand why a total reconstruction will make it better when I am doing what is suggested. I have established the fact that I need to do some redesign on my rear mounts at the first time that someone posted about it. Please if you have concern then bring it up and try to help with it not be negative.

I've said this before:

There are three things that come to mind when building a rig like this.

- cheap
- reliable
- trailworthy (intended to do extreme stuff beyond stock capabilities)

In a given build, you can only ever pick two of these. You seem to have concentrated primarily on the 'cheap' part and disregarded the rest.

Inboarded springs isn't a fad, it's not a fashion statement, and it's certainly not something you do just because someone else did it. From your pictures you seem to have relocated the spring hangers about 1" inboard and about 3" further to the ground. Seriously, what benefit does this give you? Is your only gain here that you don't have to cut and reweld perches on an axle? You'll have to do that anyway to make your driveline angles correct. Meanwhile you've compromised ground clearance and frame rail structural integrity for what appears to be very little gain. If there's more to it that I can't see from the pictures, then by all means, post up.

It's also statements like this that confuse people:

about the Dana 50 but you know what I have 100 in it so it has to work for right now.

No, it doesn't. You telling it that it has to work doesn't make it behave any better. Meanwhile you're stuck with crappy leaf spring placement and a weak axle that'll leave you stranded and spending more cash just when you're trying to enjoy the fruits of your labor. Whatever happened to your eBay auction for this, by the way?

Another thing I've tended to notice so far is your complete disregard for material section properties. The two most common things used to brace the frame rails are 3x3x1/4" angle and 4x6x1/4" box cut in half. This is what you'd find on a search on the subject. Both end up going nearly to the floorpan along the frame rail. Why? Because the vertical part is what lends the most bending strength to the section, not the flat part on the bottom, and it connects right where the unibody rails connect, at the floor. What I see at your spring mounts is a clusterfuck of c-channel, flat bar, angle, and rust that doesn't really give anyone a clear idea of how you've actually gone about reinforcing things there. How have you welded it to the unibody, and why didn't you cut it to length beforehand?

I'm also guessing that you'll be removing the rear wheelwell area due to the extended wheelbase. I hope you appreciate just how much structural integrity you've lost by chopping both the roof and the wheelwells. I did both of these, and I could grab the rear deck area and move it up and down a few inches by hand without moving the rest of the truck. Definitely not what you want for something that'll see a lot of force. You'll want to include some diagonal bracing to forward of the rear deck area, tying all the cage hoops into each other, and likewise connecting all of it to the rear frame rail area, and certainly the bumper if you insist on using it for spring mounts. And please, if you do this, make some real mounts there. I've already highlighted the disadvantages of welding to spring steel, and if you don't understand the benefits and inherent safety of rigid suspension mounting points, please post now.

Lastly...don't get pissed just because you went ahead and did a whole bunch of work when you thought you were following advice. If I told you to go fly a plane, and you did so and crashed it, by your logic you'd be pissed at me because I planted the idea in your head in the first place. Nevermind the fact that you failed to adequately research and implement what you were doing (I believe I suggested doing more research in a few posts). Just because someone said stretch the wheelbase and inboard the springs does NOT mean that any way you can come up with to accomplish this will be a good idea. I'm not saying my buildup is perfect, because it isn't. But very few (if any) are, and the fact that I've built a few suspensions under this jeep and on many other vehicles already gives me a little bit of confidence in what I'm doing.

Bottom line is we're just trying to save you a lot of problems in the future. There are people on this board which much more experience than you (and even myself!) and it would be nice if you could show some consideration for their advice every so often.

And if not, there's a fellow by the name of StrokedDodge over on Pirate that could probably give you some good buildup hints as well...

 

[JamesD]

OK guys like I have done in the past I busted out the grinder and started ripping. Everything is removed other than the rails on the "frame". Where would you all suggest placement for the springs when I am using a spring that is 44" ete spring with a 40.5" ctc mount width on the axle. I looked at using the stock rear mount last night but it is setup for a narrower spring and also it will not allow for the revolver without extensive modification. Any suggestions because I am basically starting at square one. The front mount is non existant from the plating of the frame so that is not an option. Any ideas or guidance?

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

OK guys like I have done in the past I busted out the grinder and started ripping. Everything is removed other than the rails on the "frame". Where would you all suggest placement for the springs when I am using a spring that is 44" ete spring with a 40.5" ctc mount width on the axle. I looked at using the stock rear mount last night but it is setup for a narrower spring and also it will not allow for the revolver without extensive modification. Any suggestions because I am basically starting at square one. The front mount is non existant from the plating of the frame so that is not an option. Any ideas or guidance?

The stick welded main leafs to the bumper was funny, Im happy you removed it.

I would do a normal shackle not a double shackle, not a 3/4elip. a normal shackle will be most reliable.
Just tie some angle iron or 3in wide plate the rear bumper so the rear bumper and the rear frame rails are all solid one piece, with the 3in wide plate or angle at the rear frame you have a flat surface on the bottom of the frame to make some shackle mounts. Just get some 1.5in or 1.75in Inner diameter tubing and weld it to the flat surface on the bottom of the frame. take two pieces of 2.5in 1/4in or thicker flat bar with at least 5in distance holes and make them into shackles. get soem 1.5in or 1.75in polly bushings to match what ever tubing you find. These are the frist shackles I made on my front leafs like 4 years ago. I cleaned it up a bit but you get the idea..

Do you have a buddie with a mig welder you could borrow? Arc welding to the unibody is really hard. Youll likely get it too cold or burn through. at least for the unibody fram welding get a mig with gas if you can find one.


Before you get too far along, you might want to consider dove tailing the rear fenders, I narrowed mine abit and it worked out great. I wouldent touch the sheet metal if all you have is the arc welder, that would be tough.
Just an idea.. I dont want you to get in over your head if you dont have the right tools for sheet metal.

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

Inboarded springs isn't a fad, it's not a fashion statement, and it's certainly not something you do just because someone else did it.l...

In another thread he was asking how to get more flex for cheap using leaf springs I suggested to run inboarded rear leaf springs. I recommended it over 3/4 elip, double shackle or revolver shackles.

He wants to put 44in tires under this thing and wants it really tall.

The leafs he has are stiff, but they should flex since they will be inboarded.
I think this is actually the best for what he wants for what he is building it for.

This guy needs all the help he can get.

 

[JamesD]

I will be the first to tell you I need help

So basically I can put this directly onto the bottom of the rails in the back where the tow mounts are. Also would it be strong enough if I just utilized those two bolt holes to mount it to or do I still need to weld on top of that. Thanks so much guys for bearing with me. I know I am a knuckle head about things but I really want to have a fun XJ in the end. Thanks again.

 

[Matt S.]

I will be the first to tell you I need help

So basically I can put this directly onto the bottom of the rails in the back where the tow mounts are. Also would it be strong enough if I just utilized those two bolt holes to mount it to or do I still need to weld on top of that. Thanks so much guys for bearing with me. I know I am a knuckle head about things but I really want to have a fun XJ in the end. Thanks again.

So stick with 33s.

 

[vetteboy]

In another thread he was asking how to get more flex for cheap using leaf springs I suggested to run inboarded rear leaf springs. I recommended it over 3/4 elip, double shackle or revolver shackles.

He wants to put 44in tires under this thing and wants it really tall.

The leafs he has are stiff, but they should flex since they will be inboarded.
I think this is actually the best for what he wants for what he is building it for.

This guy needs all the help he can get.

I understood that, but I also think that inboarding them 1" on either side on a rear end that light isn't going to make enough difference to justify the loss of ground clearance either. Maybe truly inboard them inside the frame rails, so you can keep the same height as the factory hanger but move them in about 6" per side. You'll lose stability on something that tall but it'll help the flex situation.

 

[JamesD]

Don't get me wrong I do want this thing to have some flex but I was worried about stability with going in that far being that tall. I am sure it will be top heavy even at the placement it is currently at. These are easy to move and to fab it is the rear that I seem to have so many problems with on placement. Is it that bad of an idea to run the same width as the perches on my rear axle. At the level of in boarding slightly puts me directly in line with the mount where it is currently at in the front and below the mounting points for the tow bar in the rear. This was a factor to why I placed them there. I was hoping for a best of both by having somewhat in boarded along with a good mounting surface.

 

[vetteboy]

You're going to have to cut the perches off the axle anyway to get the pinion angle right. So there's no real reason to make that your deciding factor in spring placement.

Check out this build thread, he has some nice ideas for an extended rear spring setup:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507763

I still think that putting them in further won't hurt you with springs like those, especially given the weight you'll have back there. You can always run a factory rear swaybar if it does have stability problems, and also what you do in the front will greatly affect stability as well.

 

[JamesD]

Thanks for the link. Definately useful.

 

[JamesD]

I am trying to get info on what this guy did as I type. Hopefully I can get some good insight on how this worked for him. And thanks alot vette for the link

 

[Tommy_Harrell]

JamesD, you might even consider a mix and match pack of stock XJ and chevy springs, the pack you have looks very stout and there will be little to no weight over the rear axle. Also what are you planning to do for a fuel tank?

 

[Roxtar]

AS I see it, the problem is you've started this entire project based on a bad premise.
Did someone actually tell you it's possible to properly build an XJ for 44" tires on the cheap?!
If so, find them, beat them to death with a hose clamp (it'll take some time but it's possible), and bury the body (I have a shovel you can use if needed) so they can never give advice to anyone again.

44" tires and CHEAP?
Comon, that's just plain stupid.
It also goes a long way toward explaining some of the ideas you've come up with.
It's impossible to properly build an XJ for 35s cheaply.
Why, in God's name, do you think you need 44" tires?!

BTW James, booty-fab isn't a compliment.

 

[JamesD]

Well we do alot of riding down here along with the Superlift park and we have alot of guys running alot bigger than 44's and when we are hittin the trails 35 won't cut it. I am not using this thing solely for rock crawling. I am not expecting this thing to go up 5's every time I take it out or at all for that matter. I want something that I can go play in on the trails and if need be crawl up stuff but that is why I am not afraid to go with leafs instead fo coils. I did ask how to get decent flex out of a leaf but that is just trying to design the best setup possible for what I need.

As far as a gas tank I was going to use the OEM if it does not get in the way of my leaf packs and if they do then I have a fuel cell. There is not alot of room in the back of these as you all know when you have a jack and tools and a spare and an ice chest of course so I am trying to leave it there and utilize as much space as possible. I also just put a new pump in it.

 

[Roxtar]

James, have you seen what's being run by guys like CRASH, Jes, Capn, Sick Rick, and Goat on 35"-37" tires?
I'd venture a guess that there isn't a whole lot in Superlift that's tougher than JV, The Hammers, or any number of places in Az.
If you just want a mud monster, you're starting with the wrong vehicle.
Look into a '78 K5, or RamCharger.

 

[JamesD]

I know that. I really like my XJ and that's what I want to build. I understand that the chassis itself is not designed to take 44's but I may only run 40's and I am not pushing it as hard as the others will. I am not looking for a mud monster I just want something that I can run around in and if I need to get thru some rocks it will fair nicely or a DEEP water crossing I don't have to drive 5 miles to find a shallow spot.

 

[Roxtar]

I know that. I really like my XJ and that's what I want to build.

I really like Farrari Enzos and want one.
The fact that I want one doesn't mean I can afford one.

I understand that the chassis itself is not designed to take 44's but I may only run 40's and I am not pushing it as hard as the others will. I am not looking for a mud monster I just want something that I can run around in and if I need to get thru some rocks it will fair nicely or a DEEP water crossing I don't have to drive 5 miles to find a shallow spot.

Like I said, you're starting out with faulty reasoning. Everything done based on that reasoning will be, by definition, faulty.

#1) You do not need 44s, or even 40s, to run Superlift.
#2) You can't afford to build an XJ to run 40s. Sorry.
How often are your 44" buddies going to invite you along if they have to drag your broken ass out every trip?
#3) If #1 above is an incorrect statement, you need to learn to drive.

 

[vetteboy]

the chassis itself is not designed to take 44's

I'm glad we at least agree on this.

 

[JamesD]

I AM NOT BUILDING THIS TO RUN SUPERLIFT!!!!!!!! This is why I asked for constructive criticism not someone bashing me for an idea because it is out of the ordibnary just because of you in all of your glory have never ran a larger tire on an XJ does not mean it cannot be done. I am building this regardless of what you say. I am asking for help not someone saying it can be done. This is good though because people like you drive me even more to have sleepless night of working on this just to prove you wrong. It can be done and it will be done and it has been done before.

 

[87xjco]

I don't know if I agree that it can't be done cheap. Not likely to end up cheap, but not impossible. But you almost would have to work or own a junkyard to have access to all the cheap used parts you would need.

But it will take a huge amount of labor and talent and many of the things you'll be doing to make an XJ that capable, are prone to failure even with the best fabrication work.

If you already have one ton axles, access to cheap steel and if you are a good smart welder/fabricator. That would save alot of money. If you're starting with a good running XJ to begin with, that would help save money.

The Dana 50 is not a good 1 ton axle choice for 44's, but once the fabrication is done to get that axle in place, a replacement will be easy to put in.

I do agree there are alot better platforms to start off with and accomplish your goals.