Hydro-assist for $75

[Goatman]

Any amplification to the steering at the knuckle is going to transfer more force to the steering box & area. People bust off stock steering boxes all the time, why do you think that happens? The steering system works against the trackbar, that's how you turn the wheels.....

-jb

I'm not unhappy with how mine currently steers in the rocks, I'm mostly looking to keep force off of the frame around the box and track bar. How I'm looking at all of this, the exact opposite of what you're saying is true, since the ram takes forces that where against the box and track bar, and now it pushes against the axle housing. If some steering force is against the housing, it sure seems like less would go against the frame. I understand that more force has to go somewhere..........the idea is to put it against the axle housing.

 

[vintagespeed]

I'm not unhappy with how mine currently steers in the rocks, I'm mostly looking to keep force off of the frame around the box and track bar. How I'm looking at all of this, the exact opposite of what you're saying is true, since the ram takes forces that where against the box and track bar, and now it pushes against the axle housing. If some steering force is against the housing, it sure seems like less would go against the frame. I understand that more force has to go somewhere..........the idea is to put it against the axle housing.

Assuming the cylinder still isn't pushing when the steering box is at the end of it's stroke, then there wont be as much force applied to the frame & TB area being that the axle is splitting the load, you've got me there.

-jb

 

[BIGWOODY]

Any amplification to the steering at the knuckle is going to transfer more force to the steering box & area. People bust off stock steering boxes all the time, why do you think that happens? The steering system works against the trackbar, that's how you turn the wheels.....

-jb

we're just going to have to agree to diagree, I have had both systems. When i put assist on ,it took the majority of force of my frame and track bar and moved it to the axle. IMHO and experience , I'm just going to have to say you dont know what your talking about.

 

[snoopy]

First, I'm with you and Goatman. Forces get put into the axle housing ~ And if the steering box is at its limit, and the ram is still pushing, the breakage is on the knuckle.

we're just going to have to agree to diagree.

Amen, and AMEN.

 

[Irocjt]

Sure the force is put into the axle....BUT, what keeps the axle from moving??

Yes, that's right, the trac-bar....The same thing originally holding the axle centered under the vehicle. So yeah, I think hydro assist is great, but I don't think you should be doing it to take force off of your trac bar.

-Jordan

 

[Goatman]

Sure the force is put into the axle....BUT, what keeps the axle from moving??

Yes, that's right, the trac-bar....The same thing originally holding the axle centered under the vehicle. So yeah, I think hydro assist is great, but I don't think you should be doing it to take force off of your trac bar.

-Jordan

Uh, think again. If a ram attached to the housing is pushing the knuckle, the only force is tire against tire. Now granted, any movement of the axle is going to move the body, but since nothing is resisting the body moving it is totally insignificant. We're only talking about steering force, and the only steering force that can push against the track bar is what comes from the steering box, not from a ram assist cylinder pushing against the axle housing.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

 

[BrettM]

Irocjt, you're wrong. Goatman, you're right. I don't feel like explaining any more than that, but think about it a little, it's obvious.

 

[vintagespeed]

....IMHO and experience , I'm just going to have to say you dont know what your talking about.

Well thanks I'll make a note of that.

First, I'm with you and Goatman. Forces get put into the axle housing ~ And if the steering box is at its limit, and the ram is still pushing, the breakage is on the knuckle.

I said in my first reply that the problem would be sheering steering arm bolts. Can you really expect junkyard arms built for a 1/2 ton 10 bolt or D44 running 285LT tires to hold up to boosted pumps, hydraulic cylinders & AGR steering box pressures?

If it's matched & the PS pump goes into relief then you'll be ok, if it's not exactly matched than something's gotta give. It'll either be the steering arm bolts sheering off or it'll pull on the draglink because the steering box is bottomed out & the cylinder is still pushing.

Point was matched cylinder which will require some work, not just a $50 "ram" at surplus center.

Mine works because I dont have to match my steering throw to anything, it hits the stops & the pump goes into bypass, just like stock.

full hydro

-jb

 

[CREEPRS]

The AGR system is well thought out with a good matched cylinder. But it's not hard to see how you could shear off the steering arm bolts/studs while bound up in the rocks with way more force available than needed. Alot of these guys running a standard 8" "ram" on their setup are probably mud trucks that dont go up against 10 ton boulders on a regular basis.

I know it will work my point was that it's gotta be matched & setup correctly. And the whole modified pump thing I think is just providing way more PSI than needed to the system, modifying for GPM is a good idea when adding to the system volume but the extra pressure is just giving the "ram" more force to break stuff.

-jb

Just to add to this, I have the AGR ram assist and, I run 40's my gearbox is mounted on a reinforced frame area, so all the stress now is transfered to the weakest point my track bar mount. I just returned from a pretty hard run and I popped one of the bolts for the mount and blew the threads of the other one, I had to drive home at 25mph to keep in under control. I thought my gearbox was shot. To watch the stress just loosen the track bar mount where it mounts to the frame and turn your wheels, watch and see how much your mount moves. I also run d44. I am going full hydro, with a control valve setup for manual steer in the event a hose blows or loose engine power

 

[vintagespeed]

Just to add to this, I have the AGR ram assist and, I run 40's my gearbox is mounted on a reinforced frame area, so all the stress now is transfered to the weakest point my track bar mount. I just returned from a pretty hard run and I popped one of the bolts for the mount and blew the threads of the other one, I had to drive home at 25mph to keep in under control. I thought my gearbox was shot. To watch the stress just loosen the track bar mount where it mounts to the frame and turn your wheels, watch and see how much your mount moves. I also run d44. I am going full hydro, with a control valve setup for manual steer in the event a hose blows or loose engine power

Sorry to hear that, glad you made it home ok. Get your full hydro stuff from Sean Stapley (Station on POR) at Performance Off Road Systems, great guy perfect parts and good pricing.

My steering valve from POS (Performance Off road Systems) is awesome, turns the 38.5s with the motor off better than stock steering with 285s.

-jb

 

[CREEPRS]

Yea Sean is the one getting mine set up, good guy.

 

[scoobyxj]

Assuming the cylinder still isn't pushing when the steering box is at the end of it's stroke, then there wont be as much force applied to the frame & TB area being that the axle is splitting the load, you've got me there.

-jb

not to add to the fire but if the ram has more stroke than the steering box how can it continue to push/pull if the steering is at full lock? i can't see how it would be any differnt than not turning all the way, as in the ram stops pushing/pulling when you stop turning.

 

[CREEPRS]

It's not so the ram bigger then the box, its the box pulling the ram futher then it's stroke, which can be fixed by setting it up correctly, in the first place. I think that this thread is not really about the parts breaking its that when you start buying geto fab parts to make a system work is when you start having problems, When you buy a kit from a company as AGR the systems are matched to each other and sold to your axle turning specs not just one piece of the steering system,

 

[railroadjeep]

not to add to the fire but if the ram has more stroke than the steering box how can it continue to push/pull if the steering is at full lock? i can't see how it would be any differnt than not turning all the way, as in the ram stops pushing/pulling when you stop turning.

If I understand what Goatman and Vintagespeed is saying, when your normal steering goes to full lock, the pump goes into bypass mode thus preventing major carnage to the steering box.

But when there is a ram with more stroke then the box, the ram continues to take fluid even the though the steering box has reached the end of it's travel. As a result, the pump doesn not go into bypass and continues to feed the ram fluid. So now your ram is pushing against the the steering box (and other suspension components) and somethings going to have to give.

Did I explain that right? I've been evesdropping on this topic trying to learn more about hydro assist, so lets see if I've learned anything :wierd:


Something else I wanted to point out, someone said full hyrdro is iffy cause you could blow a hose while driving and lose your steering. How is that any worse then having a tie rod end break of something?

 

[vintagespeed]

Irocjt, you're wrong. Goatman, you're right. I don't feel like explaining any more than that, but think about it a little, it's obvious.

Thanks for all the detailed explaination BrettM, we're all much more informed now. :wave:

Something else I wanted to point out, someone said full hyrdro is iffy cause you could blow a hose while driving and lose your steering. How is that any worse then having a tie rod end break of something?

Full hydro can be iffy for much more REAL reasons than busting a 1500psi+ rated steel braided hose....

One of the things I dont like about my unbalanced (read "cheaper") full hydro system is that I'm constantly having to steer the Jeep, this and the fact that the steering wheel slowly rotates the whole time I'm driving. This is because of the inbalance in my system and if I had a double ended dual acting cylinder I'd be much better off. I didn't want 2 tie rods and the problems that come with getting the Ackerman geometry right. At least now if my cylinder goes out on the trail I still have a tie-rod. :dunno:

-jb

 

[Kaczman]

I didn't want 2 tie rods and the problems that come with getting the Ackerman geometry right

Why are you so concerned about the Ackerman angle? I'd think with the triangulated 3 link, high steer, and 38's the Ackerman may be the least of your worries.

At least now if my cylinder goes out on the trail I still have a tie-rod

But you would have no way to control the steering without the cylinder. I'd rather carry a spare tie rod.

I originally planned on running hydro assist, then I looked into an unbalanced cylinder. When I finally ran the numbers, I decided full hydro with a balanced ram would be the best option for me. I don't run it on the street often, and I know it is not for everybody.

-Jon

 

[vintagespeed]

Why are you so concerned about the Ackerman angle? I'd think with the triangulated 3 link, high steer, and 38's the Ackerman may be the least of your worries.

Because if you know what Ackerman geometry is then you know that the tie rods are constantly moving up/down/forward/back as well as side to side. I was concerned (based on many reports on POR) that the shafts of the cylinder would wear in their bores because of this up/down movement, thus killing a $300+ cylinder. Lots of discussion on POR about this and many competitors are running a balanced cylinder with a standard tie-rod to avoid the problem.

But you would have no way to control the steering without the cylinder. I'd rather carry a spare tie rod.

If your cylinder goes out you have no steering either. I have a spare for $54........ And while it's NOT easy to extract a rig with no steering and a tie rod, it's much easier than extracting a rig with no steering AND no tie rod because the cylinder is bent/leaking/otherwise f-d up.

I originally planned on running hydro assist, then I looked into an unbalanced cylinder. When I finally ran the numbers, I decided full hydro with a balanced ram would be the best option for me. I don't run it on the street often, and I know it is not for everybody.

-Jon

 

[Kaczman]

Because if you know what Ackerman geometry is then you know that the tie rods are constantly moving up/down/forward/back as well as side to side. I was concerned (based on many reports on POR) that the shafts of the cylinder would wear in their bores because of this up/down movement, thus killing a $300+ cylinder. Lots of discussion on POR about this and many competitors are running a balanced cylinder with a standard tie-rod to avoid the problem.



If your cylinder goes out you have no steering either. I have a spare for $54........ And while it's NOT easy to extract a rig with no steering and a tie rod, it's much easier than extracting a rig with no steering AND no tie rod because the cylinder is bent/leaking/otherwise f-d up.

True, but with the proper high steer arms and ram location, the side load issues can easily be overcome. I've seen the pics of bent heims, tie rods, and rams. Even BillaVista improperly mounted this ram the first time around. I assumed you wanted proper Ackerman angle for good road manners.

The strength and durability of the ram are the least of my worries. If I tweak the 1.5" Nitro steel shaft, I need to look for associated carnage as well (heims, tie rods, knuckles, axle housing). My main concern is running full hydro on a high steer D-44. I check the ball joints and steering arm studs religioulsy.

There are pros and cons to every steering system, run what best suits yours needs.

-Jon

 

[snoopy]

This is really getting interesting.

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

Just to add to this, I have the AGR ram assist and, I run 40's my gearbox is mounted on a reinforced frame area, so all the stress now is transfered to the weakest point my track bar mount. I just returned from a pretty hard run and I popped one of the bolts for the mount and blew the threads of the other one, I had to drive home at 25mph to keep in under control. I thought my gearbox was shot. To watch the stress just loosen the track bar mount where it mounts to the frame and turn your wheels, watch and see how much your mount moves. I also run d44. I am going full hydro, with a control valve setup for manual steer in the event a hose blows or loose engine power

You mounted your ram form the frame to your tie rod?
Other wise your track bar failure caused your box failure...

ARG is alot of money that does not need to be spent.
Im a DIY kinda guy, if you cant Do It Your self, you cant fix it, so you shouldent be messing with it.

More ideas for you guys.
Any rebuildable ram you should be able to take it aparts and add washers internally to reduce the throw. The washer reduces the amount of volume of fluid so it makes the ram stop earlier. With no space for more fluid it will bypass your steering pump earlier, it can NOT crush the internal washer.

I didnt need to add washers to mine. 8in was great.