How to make my rear flex more and my front less??(pics)

[SV1CEC]

Although I haven't been wheeling much lately (only two excursions in about 8 months, mostly on flat, dirt roads) Rusty's springs haven't sag much. Even today, my shackles are angled forward. This, and the fact that they gave me a total of 6" (versus 4.5 advertised) are the only good things about these springs. Of course, the fact that they haven't sag much means that they do not flex much as well.

Another side-effect of my leaf problems, was the fact that I got to meet a shop, which can do whatever you want with springs. These guys are really knowledgeable on this subject, so maybe I'll have them build a set for me, according to my specs. Sorry guys, it wouldn't do you any good if I introduce them to you, too far away from most of you to take advantage of them.

 

[ChuckD]

Here's mine with Re1462's and about 8-9 months old.

I know my rear will have more travel once I relocate the rear shock mounts, right now I'm still running the Heckethorn 2-4" lift JCW specials.

My advice, keep Rusty's leafs, weigh down the back a lot and really get out there and excerise them. I think Rusty changed them because everyone said his leafs were too soft.

more pics:

http://home.attbi.com/~cdutke/flex/flex.htm

 

[juicexj24]

Springs

After reading every bodies stuff, I just say I'm on the side that thinks Rusty's stuff is cheap and should be made better. I do have some Rusty's Stuff, adjustable control arms, HD Trac Bar and Brace. I have heard many stories about the coils and springs. Let me say this. Rubicon Express is the way to go. I have run there coils and leafs for over 4 years, I have the 4.5" Rear Springs, they will sit about at 6.25". I have the ORGS Shackle, with is a boomerang type. This thing flexes like crazy, rides great. I did drive around for about a month with something like 10bags of sand in the back. This didn't cause the springs to sag, just to soften them up. They have been on over two years. RE1462 is the part number. The coils I'm running are the 4.5" (RE1310), Isolator (RE1340), and 1.75" Spacer (RE1334). The coils are over 4 years old. I have only had the spacers on for the sametime as the leaf springs. Now only am I going to go with the GC coils for the 5.5" RE1345, to take up the weight of the new winch bumper.
So go with Rubicon, dump Rusty's. The shackle should never be pointing that far forward, the fix isn't new bushings, and longer shackles, its to replace the whole springs. My CJ did that with the driver side rear shackle. Sucked for ride and didn't make it to safe.

 

[jalehman]

I had to go to Skyjacker 6" front coils and remove a leaf from the rear of my Rustys STS springs for equal flex. I am running long arms though. I don't think that you could get by with the stiffer skyjacker coils with short arms, though. It would probably collapse your spine from the rough ride. It now rides better with the long arms and the stiffer springs than it did with the old arms and super soft Tomken coils.

I think that is the major reason a lot lift kits come with such soft coils. When lifted with short arms at steep angles, the coils HAVE to be soft or the ride would be completely unbearable. When traveling at slow speeds the bad suspension geometry isn't as masked though and all the flex will come from the front axle due to the soft coils.

 

[SV1CEC]

Re: Springs

So go with Rubicon, dump Rusty's. The shackle should never be pointing that far forward, the fix isn't new bushings, and longer shackles, its to replace the whole springs.

I second that. Have a look at the attached picture:

This is how my shackles were 4 months after the installation of the lift. First days, they were actually touching the front of their mounts.

Since I couldn't justify new springs (double the list price to get an idea of how much they cost me to have them shipped here), what I did, was to remove the lower leaf. That made the springs softer and allowed them to stretch a bit more. Here is how my shackles look today:

Not ideal but better. Some day, RE will get an order for several things. Until then I have to live with this POS.

Rgds

 

[basalt51]

I've had my RE1462 springs only a few month's and I think they flex great. Not like the front coils, but I don't expect them to.

Some of the flex examples shown are a little deceiving in that the rear won't flex as much if the front can take care of it - like backing up the ramp. With the front axle level, the body can rotate and the front axle does all the work. Now stuff a big boulder under the opposite front wheel and you'll get all the flex and stuff you could want from both sides.

I'ld like to see Bender's rig back up a ramp now, that would give a better compairison of how the rear flexes.

 

[jalehman]

I wasn't happy at all with my Rustys STS rear springs at first either. They were advertised as a 6" lift. When I put them on my shackle was maxed out in the forward position also. I got an honest 9" of lift! I wanted 6". Thank god I had sye. I drove it around for about a week thinking that they would settle in. No change. The ride felt like I had bolted the rear axle directly to the frame it was so bad! Looking at my rear shock I could tell that the shocks were only compressing about .5" in a whole week of driving! I removed two leaves from each pack and it sagged to about 7" of lift. I drove it for a couple of months. Rode really nice. It sagged to about 5.5" of lift so I put the short leaf back in to get rid of the W formation. They have been holding at about 6.5" now for the last year and the shackle is perfectly vertical. I think I will be able to tolerate them now that they are well broken in. They ride really nice now but definitely not worth the hassle. I would consider these springs ONLY if you carry over 400#s of gear, otherwise they are way too stiff.

 

[ZPD]

What about those revolver shackles? They seemed to be a J.U. fad of some sort a while back with some drawbacks. Seems like they might ride a bit loose on the street but if it is mostly a trail rig then it would definately increase your droop. Doesn't help much in your compression though. Anyone have any real world experience with these?

 

[Bender]

Basalt51,

I was wonder who would mention that fact that I backed up the ramp. True, it isn't the best comparison as the rear doesn't have the weight on it to force it to flex when I'm in that position. Unfortunately I don't have any pics on my webshots account of my jeep back then on a ramp normally. The rear did flex a little more going up forwards but still not near as much as I would have liked or even close to how it flexes now.

After reading several posts in this thread regarding the rear shacke actually poining forward in my opinion that is SEVERE design flaw. At static height the shackle should NEVER be pointing foward. This puts so much added stress on the rear supension and doesn't allow for droop at all. Anyone who bought aftermarket springs that fit in this manner should do their best to return them.

As for the "revolver" style shackles I'd say they are more of a gimmik than anything. Sure they give you some nice ramp scores but they also tend to increase axle wrap and do very little for off-road performance. I ran a homemade style scissor shackle for about 6 months in my quest for flex but eventually took it off.

Ary,
You asked about "boxing" in the rear shackle mount and using YJ shackles. You can also do this with your stock XJ shackles by welding on tabs instead of a bushing.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/64838123/70343261CHaGmc
http://community.webshots.com/photo/64838123/70343280wcjHkg

Just for the record... I copied this design from someone on but I don't remember who so I can't give them the due credit at this time.

In those pics I have two mounting holes on each side. The forward one I use for daily driving as it softens up the ride a bit and the rearward hole I use when off-roading as it gives me a little more load carry capacity and I carry about 350# of tools, shafts, recovery stuff, fluids etc in the back.

 

[ChuckD]

Nice Mod Bender, I know GaryE, Crash, and Borton have done close to the same mod.

 

[giranger]

I would not go with revolver shackles, had them and got rid of them. Also heard many stories about them, they give nice flex but at a price. If its your daily driver and you have to hit your brakes hard they will open up and your ass end will come up in the air(not safe). This happened to a fellow jeeper here, he was going down a steep hill and they opened up on him, almost rolled him end over end.

 

[ZPD]

I would not go with revolver shackles, had them and got rid of them. Also heard many stories about them, they give nice flex but at a price. If its your daily driver and you have to hit your brakes hard they will open up and your ass end will come up in the air(not safe). This happened to a fellow jeeper here, he was going down a steep hill and they opened up on him, almost rolled him end over end.

That is what it was. I remember now. If I had the energy then I probably would have done some more thinking on that one.
I guess probably the best flexy set up would be a using revolvers with orbital eyes and those axle mount pivoting things that the bronco guys use. j/k :scared:
Of course that would only work with a chrome plated diff cover and 4 sets of shocks :roflmao:

 

[Goatman]

Well, I've had them for about 4-6 months and they're well broken in. In fact, they're beginning to take on a "w" shape.

As for the shackles, I'm running a 1" pro-comp shackle and it sits just slightly angled back past vertical. Could that be my problem?? Thanks guys

Ary

P.S. With the springs and shackle I think I'm getting 5" of lift, but I don't have any real way to measure since I no longer have flares.

Ed and some of the guys have made some very good comments, this is an informative thread. Overall, it is pretty simple. You need to loosen up the rear and stiffen up the front. We've found that the ZJ front coils just work the best, and they have the stiffest spring rate available.

In the rear, make sure the shackle bolts can be turned with an end wrench, snug but not tight. They can be run like this all the time, not just on the trail, as there's no force to make them loosen up. Mine have been that way for years. The rear spring shackle has to be longer than stock, to allow the spring to travel freely. The leaf spring has to be free from friction, so make sure it's clean between the leaves, or take the spring apart and put full length liners between each leaf. I've also been running full length liners for many years, and it helps. The loose bolts and the liners mean less friction, but the spring rate and carrying capacity remain the same. Also, be sure the spring clamps are loose, not pressing the leaves together to create friction. You can also open the clamps up, or remove the bolt, depending on what type of clamps you have. Be careful when running open clamps that you don't flare the leaves too much under full droop, it can cause a problem when climbing, and reduce stability similar to what happens with a Revolver shackle. I ran open clamps for a long time, but when I put the Tera60 in the rear it is so heavy that it flared my springs way too much when drooped and going up hill, so I put the clamps back on the rear part of the springs.

Regarding rear spring rates, it's better to have a flatter spring if you want the rear to flex. I use a couple inches of block and a flatter spring to get the flex and lift I want, then a traction bar to eliminate spring wrap. The flatter spring both compresses and droops better than a spring with more arch, and the shackle is moving forward rather than backward through most of the springs action (it's already back when sitting still with a flat spring).

Here's a few pics of mine to see what's possible. I hope my friend doesn't mind me using him for comparison....this was taken two weeks ago on BOTW.

http://www.fototime.com/1600B4AEA5AD92D/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/BDE8F8D9CF28BC3/standard.jpg

Close to the same line, but more balance between the front and the rear. Here's another:

http://www.fototime.com/83F2C47D36D386B/standard.jpg

Here's a couple from a few years ago:

http://www.fototime.com/F357B3CEB75AC2D/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/D3319C2C4983094/standard.jpg

Keep working with it, you can get it balanced.

 

[XJoachim]

Personally i think the good thing about the rear not flexing this much is that it gives a bit of stability. Hard to say for me what is better off road but i like the added stability while the front cycles through the available travel. I already have the ZJ coils in front and they flex like crazy, wish they had coils with a higher spring rate.

These are actual shots front

and rear

Tell me what you think, those are 38.5 SX's

 

[RobertF]

Looks like a D35 in the back, on 38's?

 

[ArcticXJ]

Disconnect your rear swaybar. :viking:

 

[TheFortuneAteMySon]

*Thump*
Bring out yer dead!
*Thump*

 

[Ludakris]

I have to check out the "boomerang" shackles... also, would an MJ shackle help out? I have an S-10/xj pack, and it is rediculously stiff...but I am cheap... I need to replace my rear shackles as the sleeves are rusted to the bolts, just havent figured how i am going to get them out..
My neighbor had an idea and I dont know if it would work.. been trying to work it out in my head.. He mentioned that the reason the packs are so stiff is that they are like a sheet of plywood because of the stacked leafs. His idea was to add short thin metal sheets to the middle of the pack. I would assume like 1/8 or so and about 6-10" long. These would be placed between every leaf.. Would this work or is it just crazy? I gotta check out the YJ idea when I get home.. darn work firewall...

 

[JeepFreak21]

Looks like a D35 in the back, on 38's?

If you're talking about XJoachim, I believe he's running a D70.
Billy

 

[Roll-over]

Happy Birthday! This thread turns TWO!
arty: