Muddy Beast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- WA
asp, thanks that's helpful! Of course everything everyone is telling me is helpful though!
Hah can never get too much info.
~Scott
Hah can never get too much info.
~Scott
How are my welds looking?
- Thread starter Muddy Beast
- Start date
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
A few tips that may help you out. You have three things going on that affect penetration. Heat setting, wire feed speed and how fast you move the pistol. And number four the trigger, stopping and starting again.
The "C" form has been mentioned. Try thinking of the bead as a series of spot welds. Try using the "C" method, stop at the end, start again from left to right, then again. Like a series of spot welds. Using flux you'll likely have to clean often to get a decent bond.
The object of the exercise, is to get the motion down, muscle learning. I rarely look at my bead, hold my pistol at almost 90 degrees (slightly less). I use gas and run an inch or so of bead, stop, inspect, adjust and do another inch pr so. A little messy using flux though, when you stop you usually have to hit it again with a wire brush ( a wire wheel in a drill works well). An angle grinder with a grinding disc for prep.
People tend to think a constant bead is the way to weld, but in actuality twice as much weld equal to a fastener (bolt) to hold the same two pieces together is enough. It doesn't have to be a total constant bead, a weld is a fastener, enough is enough. When you stop the bead it gives the heat a chance to dissipate some. No reason not to connect a series of one inch beads instead of one continuous bead, heat control may be a good reason to do this. Though this method may require a little more prep and cleaning.
I also tend to speed up on the ends of the "C" and slow down in the middle, after you have the motion down practicing with a series of spot welds and graduate to a constant bead. The reason being, when you change directions at the end of the "C" you are doubling the heat transfer in that spot. This method can be especially helpful welding inside corners.
Nothing says you can't use a piece of metal rod to steady your pistol hand. Pistol in your right hand, rod in your left hand, held at an angle and used to steady your pistol hand. Once you train your brain to the proper motions, you rarely have to look around the pistol tip at the bead, you can concentrate on where your going and occasionally check out where you've already welded.
I weld a wide variety of materials and thicknesses, without ever touching wire feed speed or the heat settings. I use trigger control and pistol speed. If it looks like it is getting too hot I stop for a few seconds, if too cold I slow down.
In the end it really doesn't have to look pretty, it has to hold. After you get the mechanics down, you can concentrate on the often more important facets of welding. Like how the heat is affecting the surrounding metal. The difference in the weld and the hardness of the surrounding material and how this may affect longevity and function. I've had few welds ever break (especially with MIG), I've had the metal right next to the weld crack on numerous occasions. Heat control and how the heat is affecting temper, is a whole other can of worms.
The "C" form has been mentioned. Try thinking of the bead as a series of spot welds. Try using the "C" method, stop at the end, start again from left to right, then again. Like a series of spot welds. Using flux you'll likely have to clean often to get a decent bond.
The object of the exercise, is to get the motion down, muscle learning. I rarely look at my bead, hold my pistol at almost 90 degrees (slightly less). I use gas and run an inch or so of bead, stop, inspect, adjust and do another inch pr so. A little messy using flux though, when you stop you usually have to hit it again with a wire brush ( a wire wheel in a drill works well). An angle grinder with a grinding disc for prep.
People tend to think a constant bead is the way to weld, but in actuality twice as much weld equal to a fastener (bolt) to hold the same two pieces together is enough. It doesn't have to be a total constant bead, a weld is a fastener, enough is enough. When you stop the bead it gives the heat a chance to dissipate some. No reason not to connect a series of one inch beads instead of one continuous bead, heat control may be a good reason to do this. Though this method may require a little more prep and cleaning.
I also tend to speed up on the ends of the "C" and slow down in the middle, after you have the motion down practicing with a series of spot welds and graduate to a constant bead. The reason being, when you change directions at the end of the "C" you are doubling the heat transfer in that spot. This method can be especially helpful welding inside corners.
Nothing says you can't use a piece of metal rod to steady your pistol hand. Pistol in your right hand, rod in your left hand, held at an angle and used to steady your pistol hand. Once you train your brain to the proper motions, you rarely have to look around the pistol tip at the bead, you can concentrate on where your going and occasionally check out where you've already welded.
I weld a wide variety of materials and thicknesses, without ever touching wire feed speed or the heat settings. I use trigger control and pistol speed. If it looks like it is getting too hot I stop for a few seconds, if too cold I slow down.
In the end it really doesn't have to look pretty, it has to hold. After you get the mechanics down, you can concentrate on the often more important facets of welding. Like how the heat is affecting the surrounding metal. The difference in the weld and the hardness of the surrounding material and how this may affect longevity and function. I've had few welds ever break (especially with MIG), I've had the metal right next to the weld crack on numerous occasions. Heat control and how the heat is affecting temper, is a whole other can of worms.
Muddy Beast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- WA
8mud, thanks for the indepth write-up there. On almost everything you said I nodded my head. When I learned the "C" method (on here) I almost immediately would slow down in the middle and go slightly faster on the ends, it just seemed to make sence to me. As far as starting and stopping though I'm not sure I follow. Are you telling me to weld a C, stop, and start again? I've been just dropping an inch or so of bead, letting it sit for 10min, then dropping another. Also I do tack welds every 4-6 inches.
Here's a crappy phone picture from tonight...
~Scott
Here's a crappy phone picture from tonight...
~Scott
Bunookana
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Nashville tn
You Rock!!! Keep on melt'n. You just got to learn the feel for it. I, like you can't wait to do something on my own, but I have learned the benefits of proper preparation. I already know how to weld but I do plan on hitting up the local technical school for some welding classes. I want to shapen my skill. If you find the right school, you should be able to get in there for close to nothing.
arty:
arty:
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
You seem to be doing OK, what I was getting at was to start out with a series of overlapping spot welds. Just to get a feel for what is going on. You seem to have progressed beyond that. Though to tell you the truth, outside corners can benefit from this technique, you'll notice the longer you run a bead the hotter the surrounding material gets and the welded material may tend to melt, puddle and pit. Learning to speed up the weld (bead) as the material heats up is something you pick up by and by. Inside corners can also be tricky. Welding overhead is a giant pain.
I do a fair amount of sheet metal, I start, stop and let the heat dissipate often. Sheet metal will buckle and wrinkle if you overheat it.
Ten minutes may be a little unnecessarily long to let it cool down, I honestly don't have a set time. I try to judge the heat and stop before the metal starts to flex too much and/or the weld starts to burn in too much and puddle. Start again before things cool down too much.
I first learned with a torch, then graduated to rod, did a lot of brazing and silver solder then learned TIG and MIG. Guess some of my technique carried over.
Welded pipe for awhile, it always used to stun me some to see the end of a 21 foot piece of 2 inch pipe move a foot or more as I was welding two sections together in the middle.
I'd have to play with the heat so the finished section was straight after welding, you pick up technique as you learn.
I do a fair amount of sheet metal, I start, stop and let the heat dissipate often. Sheet metal will buckle and wrinkle if you overheat it.
Ten minutes may be a little unnecessarily long to let it cool down, I honestly don't have a set time. I try to judge the heat and stop before the metal starts to flex too much and/or the weld starts to burn in too much and puddle. Start again before things cool down too much.
I first learned with a torch, then graduated to rod, did a lot of brazing and silver solder then learned TIG and MIG. Guess some of my technique carried over.
Welded pipe for awhile, it always used to stun me some to see the end of a 21 foot piece of 2 inch pipe move a foot or more as I was welding two sections together in the middle.
I'd have to play with the heat so the finished section was straight after welding, you pick up technique as you learn.
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Muddy Beast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- WA
So I dropped some bead on my mounting today...and since this was really my first time working with 3/16th to 1/4th steel I struggled. I did the cleaner beads at speed 8, then I thought I might be able to burn a little more if I dropped it so I tried speed 7 and got the one with all the open spots.
I wanted to stop with this mount until I got an OK from you guys though, how do they look? Good enough, any recommendations on what to do?
~Scott
Muddy Beast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- WA
Ya my back up is to drill and tap the two plates on the bottom, and bolt them up together and through the original nutzert bolt hole.
~Scott
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
Just as a discussion point. I would have beveled the angle iron the same as the square (rectangular) stock. And probably would have started welding in the middle (where the two pieces meet, held it there an instant too long and when it started to puddle moved the edges of the weld out. Just a talking point, if the middle is burnt in good, the edges of the weld are likely also, the converse isn't always true.
Grind the black (carbon) coating off of your work before welding. You may even want to rag down the piece with solvent, they coat metal stock with preservative (oil, wax or both) to prevent rust.
I'm a lot more careful with a structural weld than I am with a simple fastening weld, I tend to over engineer it at least a hundred percent (twice as strong as it needs to be). No reason not to add some nuts and bolts to the construction, if it absolutely has to hold.
For people doing manufacturing, multiple passes mean more time and money. For the home builder, the question is why not? You can more than double the strength with a few more passes.
Grind the black (carbon) coating off of your work before welding. You may even want to rag down the piece with solvent, they coat metal stock with preservative (oil, wax or both) to prevent rust.
I'm a lot more careful with a structural weld than I am with a simple fastening weld, I tend to over engineer it at least a hundred percent (twice as strong as it needs to be). No reason not to add some nuts and bolts to the construction, if it absolutely has to hold.
For people doing manufacturing, multiple passes mean more time and money. For the home builder, the question is why not? You can more than double the strength with a few more passes.
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Muddy Beast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- WA
So can I go back over those welds and hopefully save them?
~Scott
~Scott
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
As long as you aren't welding air pockets into the old weld. An angle grinder, with a grinding blade instead of a cutting blade will clean the welds up quick. You really don't want to grind the finished welds much. I buy middle priced one hand angle grinders and keep one with a grinding blade and another with a cutting blade. Angle grinders aren't nearly as expensive as they used to be. I do the same with one hand drills, one always has a wire wheel in it. I don't use wire wheels in angle grinders anymore, after one afternoon pulling wire chunks out of my face with a pair of pliers.
I was looking at the bumper on my push truck today. Actually the only thing holding it on the truck is eight, inch and a half welds and two end braces running in at a 45 degree angle with bolts. I've pushed everything in the pits at one time or another for fifteen years with it. The welds actually aren't that good either, they are a bit cold. A bumper is only as good as the weakest link and thats usually the frame for a unibody.
I tend to build in a little crush when I make a bumper, bend before it breaks engineering.
Muddy Beast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- WA
Yeah I already have a higher end craftsman 4.5 angle grinder with a nice 5 year warranty. (I burnt up my harbor freight one in two months and figured it's something I use so much I better get a good one)
As for the welds, you think they look decent enough to hold?
~Scott
As for the welds, you think they look decent enough to hold?
~Scott
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
Hard to say from a photograph, though they do look a little cold in the middle down deep near the "V" where the two pieces meet. Beat on them a bit with a BFH and see what happens. I tacked a big old vice onto a metal plate just to hold it until I could get some bolts. Pretty nasty looking cold welds, done in a hurry. I've hammered on stuff in that vice with a sledge hammer on many occasions, it's been holding up for twenty years without the bolts.
Muddy Beast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- WA
Yeah I beat on them and it seems solid. But I guess I COULD hook it up to a tree and drive, see what happens.
~Scott
stewie
NAXJA Forum User
the great thing about metal is that you can grind down your welds and re weld them. in fact in many cases that is the required procedure- like grinding down your root pass on an open groove butt joint. its also required to grind out any trouble spots (like porocity, slag inclusions, or pinholes) and re weld that area on structural or pressure vessel welds.
like mud said, keep multiple grinders arroun. i have three- one each for cutting disk, grinding wheel, and a wire wheel. but like mud said, you need to use caution with a wire wheel on a grinder. the wire pieces like to come off so wear a face shield and a sturdy shirt/welding leathers.
i would take some scrap steel and practice making stringer beads on that some more. just a plain straight bead accross some metal and that will help with your wire speed, travel speed and you can also practice pushing, pulling, and dragging the gun across the workpiece to help find what you are most comofortable with.
like mud said, keep multiple grinders arroun. i have three- one each for cutting disk, grinding wheel, and a wire wheel. but like mud said, you need to use caution with a wire wheel on a grinder. the wire pieces like to come off so wear a face shield and a sturdy shirt/welding leathers.
i would take some scrap steel and practice making stringer beads on that some more. just a plain straight bead accross some metal and that will help with your wire speed, travel speed and you can also practice pushing, pulling, and dragging the gun across the workpiece to help find what you are most comofortable with.
tharlanjr
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- EAST COUNTY
I don't know if its been said already, but when I was first learning to weld we would grind the corners down a bit to allow the hear to go a little further down.
We would get two plates like a T then weld one side and then have a press break it to see how much penetration we had.
I haven't welded anything smaller than 1/4 in a long time though.
We usually weld most things at 30V and 350 wirespeed...
We would get two plates like a T then weld one side and then have a press break it to see how much penetration we had.
I haven't welded anything smaller than 1/4 in a long time though.
We usually weld most things at 30V and 350 wirespeed...
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