Help! (28-29DEC09)

[5-90]

I hate asking this, but I need a fresh pair of eyes.

Patient: 1990XJ/242/AW4/NP231

CC: Failed oil pump.

Action: Oil pump has been replaced, oil sump in place, oil refilled, oil pump primed. Good pressure on the mechanical gage when primed.

Complication: I haven't been able to get the dizzy "bang-on" when putting it back in. Using only finger pressure to tighten the holddown screw, I finally had a case of pulling the dizzy out for adjustment and noting the holddown tab staying on the engine casting. Owner reports that the dizzy had been replaced prior.

Dizzy replaced with "WWP" ("Worked When Pulled" dizzy from a 1990 parts rig, and it's closer to starting. However, she keeps acting like she's "one tooth off." I've lined the dizzy up per FSM, I've done it per common sense, and I figure I'm too close to the problem.

I don't often do this, but I could really use someone's help this evening or to-morrow (probably after noon, we have a morning appointment) to provide fresh eyes to look at what I'm doing wrong. I'm sure it's some dumbass mistake on my part, but I just too close to the problem to see it.

Location: San Jose, Jarvis off Hillsdale. Please PM if avaialble to get specific address.

I've been swearing at this thing since Thursday when it got here (spend all day Saturday fighting with the oil sump pan - it had been "sprung" when removed previously somtime after 1996) to get the screw holes lined up. Sunday was arguing with the ignition. Today was finding out the dizzy tab had cracked and replacing the thing.

I have FSM. Can get beer.

 

[Bryan C.]

Sounds like you set the timing wrong. Did you try one tooth advanced from where you have it now?

 

[5-90]

Sounds like you set the timing wrong. Did you try one tooth advanced from where you have it now?

That was my first thought. Did it one tooth in each direction. Then spun 180* and tried again. Then put back - spinning 180* didn't do a damned thing (and it at least tries to light now.)

As I said, I think I'm just too damned close to the problem, and I've been swearing at this job since Thursday (the oil pan rails were "sprung" - which make that entirely too much of a fight as it was!) I just need someone who can come around (to-morrow after-noon, please?) to look at this thing with fresh eyes.

Because it's driving me batty.

 

[downhillracer]

What exactly is it doing that makes you think it is a tooth off? Im assuming that its running rough, but is it dying? When I did mine I was 180 out, and when I turned it over there was obvious backfire. That in turn blew the map sensor tube out of the tb. I fixed the 180 out but it was still running like crap and I couldnt figure out why till I noticed that the tube and gromet was out of the tb a bit. Long shot but.....

 

[5-90]

What exactly is it doing that makes you think it is a tooth off? Im assuming that its running rough, but is it dying? When I did mine I was 180 out, and when I turned it over there was obvious backfire. That in turn blew the map sensor tube out of the tb. I fixed the 180 out but it was still running like crap and I couldnt figure out why till I noticed that the tube and gromet was out of the tb a bit. Long shot but.....

It won't even give me a stable run - just stumbles for a couple of seconds and dies.

I didn't do anything on the driver's side of the cylinder head - and the only real work done above the sump line was R&I of the distributor. I can check that out to-morrow, but I really need for a fresh pair of eyes to have a look at this beast - I'm just too damned close to the problem, and I've been swearing at it for too long.

As I said earlier - "Have FSM. Can get beer." (I just need you to tell me what sort - I know sod-all about beer...)

The kicker - I didn't specifically mention this earlier, but I'm sure I inferred it - this isn't my rig. Therefore, I really need to get it finished! The owner would like it back (and I don't blame her!) and has been understanding about it all so far...

 

[the_weirdo]

Jon, I might be able to get some time on Thurs afternoon if you haven't solved it by then. Did you check simple stuff like:
1) Disconnect the battery to reset the computer
2) Check that plug wires are installed correct

Josh

 

[5-90]

Jon, I might be able to get some time on Thurs afternoon if you haven't solved it by then. Did you check simple stuff like:
1) Disconnect the battery to reset the computer
2) Check that plug wires are installed correct

Josh

Battery was Dx while I was doing the rest of the work, since I had the starter motor loose.

The only individual spark plug wire that was disturbed was #1 - pulled to pull the plug and check for TDC (just to make sure timing marks hadn't wandered.) The only other wire to the cap getting disturbed was the coil wire being disconnected at the coil (to remove the dizzy after pulling the cap, or to lay the cap out of the way while adjusting the dizzy.)

Thursday could be helpful - but I'd rather not keep the job that long! I'll be working on it some more after I run errands, so if anyone can pry loose this after-noon I'd greatly appreciate it...

 

[Boatwrench]

(just to make sure timing marks hadn't wandered.) ...

That was my thought, but you checked it already. This situation sounds definitely like you can't see the forest because the trees are in the way.

 

[5-90]

That was my thought, but you checked it already. This situation sounds definitely like you can't see the forest because the trees are in the way.

Yeah - as I said, "too damned close."

Just got home (1540 - been running about since 0900. Day started at the Federal Building, what a pain in the arse. I'm about to start wearing a loincloth when I go to places like that...) and I'm going to call the owner to keep her apprised, and get to work on it for an hour or so.

This is farkin' wearing me out. I'll let all y'all know if it manages to light off (I'd cross my eyes if I thought it would help...) but I'm going to assume I'm still going to need help unless something extraordinary should happen.

Have I ever mentioned that I find government insecurity to be asinine, of little utility, and doesn't accomplish the stated goal (of "making me safe"?) You want me to feel safe? Leave me the Hell alone and let me provide for my own damned safety - if you don't trust me, why should I trust you?

Meantime, if anyone else has any brilliant ideas, I'd like to hear them. If anyone can prise loose some time this evening, so much the better!

 

[Boatwrench]

The shaft isn't worn in the housing bushing is it?

The shaft could be moving just enough side to side or up and down as the cut of the drive gear raises the shaft as idle picks up and shaft drops as it returns to normal. Would possibly give the same symptoms as spun timing mark or worn timing gears.

 

[5-90]

The shaft isn't worn in the housing bushing is it?

The shaft could be moving just enough side to side or up and down as the cut of the drive gear raises the shaft as idle picks up and shaft drops as it returns to normal. Would possibly give the same symptoms as spun timing mark or worn timing gears.

Checked that before I put the WWP dizzy in (I'm cranky about things like that,) and the freeplay was nominal. More than new, less than my 340Kmile unit (and the 340Kmile unit works just fine, thank you very much...) And dizzy bushing wear often does give the same Sx as spun mark or worn gears (the gear on the dizzy also looked good. I checked that as well.)

In a moment of clarity (the fog of my CRS lifted for a few minutes,) I remembered the owner telling me she wanted me to check the alternator - so I put a battery charger on it around 1600 yesterday. Just checked (1525) and she's a bit closer to starting, but it's still not happening - so I still need help. There's something I'm not seeing!

And yes, fuel is being delivered. I know this because I can smell it just fine after I crank, but not before.

Everything else went fairly smoothly (save the sprung oil sump...) so it's only logical that I should have this much trouble in the homestretch. Damn.

 

[Boatwrench]

I post this one out of ignorance, but...is the shaft a two piece press fit? maybe spun some? Same goes for driven gear on distributor spun and took up play or bent pin? Not sure what the drive gear is attached to but if pressed on could it have spun just a tad?

Or the worse possible scenario...the sum of all worn in play in the above listed components equals timing off?

I hope we aren't on timing group think and going down the wrong rabbit hole.

 

[the_weirdo]

Jon, I don't know that I would can be much help but I am willing to come over on Thursday and put some fresh eyes on the problem. I gotta watch the kids from noon to 4PM so it either needs to be before or after that block of time.

 

[5-90]

Grr...

In a moment of (clarity/CRS fog lifting/clear rational thought/useful recall/call it what you will...) I had a moment where I recalled the owner mentioning wanting the alternator checked - as I said before

20-odd hours wasn't enough to recover the battery - she idles and runs now!

Upside? I added a pint of MMO, and that got the lifters to shut up in #2-#6 cylinders.

Problem: #1 still sounds like a midget with a hammer. It quieted down, but not by much.

To-morrow is going to be pulling the valve cover and torquing the rocker screws down (may as well get all of them...) to make sure none of them have worked loose. I'm hopeful that will solve the problem - because if it doesn't, the head is going to have to come off!

At least I know the bearings are fine (OK, I didn't check all of them. I checked #2/#5 rods and #1/#3/#6 mains, and they're all fine. And, the oil drained clean - plus no sludge or shavings in the sump.

I do appreciate the responses here, and I'm glad to have gotten the thing going on my own (by the by - the battery is holding a charge ~13.2VDC, and the alternator gives with 14.4VDC. So, those are just ducky as well...) but now that I've got her running, I'm back on my own feet. So, I can save my kharma for later! gee: :wave: :clap

I still felt like :wstupid: tho - damned CRS is a real bear. I can remember stuff I learned 20 years ago, but I get to where I can't remember ten minutes ago. Bugger.

But, I've broken the plateau, and I'm back on the downhill side of all of this mess. I hope torquing the rockers down works - I want my driveway back!

(The only problem that will linger is the oil pressure gage. Installed a BNIB Crown sensor alongside the oil sump - I bought it a while ago - and the gage won't read. Got solid pressure with proper variation while priming, so it's not the pump or the port. I know the pressure was good - my mechanical gage read just fine.

(NB: If you happen to have an old dizzy floating around, remove the gear, shaft, and guts - a SBChevvy oil pump priming rod, with the sleeve removed, fits neatly down the shaft hole. Thus, it makes an excellent shaft guide! Came up with this as a combination of "Arr, f***!" and "Why didn't I think of this years ago?")

 

[GSequoia]

Didn't read it but want to point out a tip.

The stator / camshaft sensor has two possible positions. If you remove the distributor shaft and look at it you'll see that you can put the set screw in two holes to get it about 15° off. This is not installed the same way in all Jeeps and I have no idea why. This will mess with you.

 

[5-90]

Didn't read it but want to point out a tip.

The stator / camshaft sensor has two possible positions. If you remove the distributor shaft and look at it you'll see that you can put the set screw in two holes to get it about 15° off. This is not installed the same way in all Jeeps and I have no idea why. This will mess with you.

Thanks - I didn't know that offhand.

Still, I've got the thing running, so I'm just trying to see if the valvetrain can learn to behave without having to pull the head...

 

[5-90]

UPDATE!

As we all know, noises can "transfer" slightly - while a mechanic's steth can help you localilse it, it won't actually "pinpoint" it unless it's something out on its own anyhow (idler pully bearing, alternator bearing, something like that.)

The two pictures attached are of the valve gear - I pulled the valve cover to make sure pivot screws hadn't come loose. Cylinders 1-3 and 4-6, left-to-right.

"One of these things is not like the other/one of these things just doesn't belong..."

The only replacement I could find to-day, that someone could put their fingers on, was in Gilroy off of Tenth Street. So, I ended up trekking all the way down to by-damned Gilroy so I could get the replacement part before next week - a thirty-five mile one-way for a part that cost a buck-fifty! If I had a Small Block whatever, a Honda, or a Toyota, I'd have been good - but no-one wants to carry Jeep parts anymore it seems...

Grr.

I have the new 'rod, and I'll put it in to-morrow and nail the valve cover back down. The relief of pressure atop the lifter jumped it right out of the bore - fortunately, I could get my trusty magnet-on-a-stick down there and set the thing back in place. I really didn't want to pull the head if it could be avoided, the arthritis in my back (C-spine and L-spine) would make that a much more difficult job than it would have been before...