HANDGUNS for self defense...

red91

NAXJA Forum User
:RANT ON :


In light of recent events...Children being murdered and raped...friends being killed for no reason...Neighbors being asulted and killed...

I am at the crossroads. What pushed me over the edge ?? Here ya go...

My wife and I decided to rent our downstairs family room to a friend of hers. Nice guy...hard worker, just got the oportunity to see his children again after a year of BS from the Ex. Hand a good job going on.

For him, life had taken a dramatic turn around for the better. Been with us a month...and then last weekend I wondered why he hadn't come home. SUNDAY NIGHT NEWS....

He was shot, point blank 4 times, broad daylight in front of women and children at a soccer game in Longview, Wa. D.O.A. at the hospital.

Wife is NOW getting some weird phone calls that we have alerted the phone company to. No idea who. Wife is almost to the point of being terrified. Says they will keep track of them.

I'm sick of all the SHIT that is going on. We talked yesterday...and she is very upset. I told her I was EXTREMELY SERIOUS about looking at a handgun. She asked me what good would that do ? I say, if some SOB decides he wants to harm ANY member of my family, they'll have another thing coming. And that my life is worth nothing without them.

I looked her right in the eyes and told her..."If I did kill someone, and got sent to prison, for whatever bizzare reason...I'll see you and the kids in 7-10 with time off for good behavior."

I AM DEADLY SERIOUS. I can't envision anything happening to my children.
If something happened to them like some of the other children in the news as of late...all I can say is the guy wouldn't make it into court if I could get to him.

:Rant off:

I would like a consensus gentlemen....AND prefer ONLY MILITARY (past or present), Gun SPECIALISTS , or those that have served in Law Enforcement to respond.

With the following in mind...
1.) Economical,
2.) Reliability,
3.) Ease of use and,
4.) accuracy.

What are my BEST options ? Handguns only. I have talked to an ex-MP and have gotten 2 EXCELLENT suggestions. Would like to know what you protect yourself, and your family with.

NO BS PLEASE GUYS. I rarely ask for no bs....BUT this time is COMPLETELY different for obvious reasons.

I didn't sleep much last night thinking about everything that has happened as of late, and am ready to SERIOUSLY consider this matter.

Thank you in advance. I know you all can understand.
 
I'm currently military, but not a gun specialist. My recommendation for use in the home would be a 12 guage shotgun. Then you don't have to worry about nerves in the heat of the moment. Grab it, point it in his general direction and pull the trigger. At the very least he'll catch some pellets, be stunned by the noise and flash, and think twice before he continues his plan...


Glad to hear you guys are ok for the time being, have you filed a police report? I'd try and get as many people and organizations in on this as possible to try to make sure that there's a history of threats/strange phone calls since your friend was shot. That way if anything odd happens the police will possibly have some direction to look in.
 
Screw the hand gun, a nice 12ga is a much better for use inside your house they dont miss in the confines of a house. You can saw it down to 18in. Carrying a hand gun can lead to problems and alot more accidents happen with handguns. If you kill someone in your house in self defense you most likely would not serve any time at all. You would be doing all mankind a favor by blowing some holes in that POS. If you decide on a hand gun make sure both you and your know how to use it safely and may all your bullets hit thier mark.
 
For home defense Iam a HUGE fan of a 12 ga. (oo buck with a magnuim load) and IMHO ..... think this would be your best bet.
Like BlackSport96 said ... grab it, point in general direction, squeeze trigger.
But since you want a handgun ... Thats where a .45 will come in handy. IF you can hit your target. TONS of knockdown power. Dont look for this to be "cheep" to shoot though, maybe it can be if you know someone that re-loads.
You never said if you can shoot. Spend lots of time at the range and PLEASE keep whatever you decide to get away from "small hands". Thats another plus for the .45, the safeties on it. It is hard for small hands to shoot. Make sure EVERYONE in the house knows how to handle the weapon.
Remember one thing.... "center mass".

Speaking from personal experiance .....
STAY AWAY from a .357. It WILL go thru too many "things" (walls, people, ect..) before the round stops.
MAKE SURE YOU ARE "FULLY" AWAKE BEFORE YOU SEND A ROUND TOWARDS ITS TARGET ! ! ! !

Another reply from an ex-MP.
mp1.jpg
 
BlackSport96 said:
I'm currently military, but not a gun specialist. My recommendation for use in the home would be a 12 guage shotgun.

Simi auto, cut to the legal limit,shorter if that sort of thing is not an issue with you.
 
Red, being you are in WA state, where it is EXTREMELY easy to get a concealed carry permit, is that the route you are going? I assume since you are entertaining a handgun, that's where you are headed?

If we are sticking to inside the house only, 12 guage is the way. Let us know if we are talking about portable defense, and we can make some recommendations.

CRASH
 
I echo the recommendations of a 12 gauge shotgun. You can get a reliable Winchester 1300 or Remington 870 for around $250 brand new. You and your wife will need to spend some time at the range familiarizing yourselves with it using light target loads. Load it up with #4 buckshot and you are good to go.

2 to the chest, 1 to the head.
 
12 guage is nice...plus it makes a very distinctive sound when you "pump" it.You can buy one with a pistol grip and short barrell. After that I would go with a 45...
 
If you have been threatened do not get belligerent if they call you on the phone, just listen, keep your mouth shut and when they are done THEN hang up. If you have a nut case out there you do NOT want to antagonize them in any way, shape or form. DO NOT RESPOND to them either way, do not hang up, do not threaten them just be a solid object. That said.
Get a CCW and start learning to carry, you are in a position of possibly needing one and when you do you need it NOW, not in a lockbox, not in a dresser drawer, not with the magazine removed and an empty chamber when you need it you need in NOW, that second, loaded, one in the chamber, hammer back and ready to shoot. DO NOT let anyone know you carry, word gets around and half the advantage of CCW is no one knows. Learn to conceal it which is tough in the summer, hard to avoid printing on a shirt with belt carry, coat in 100F weather is a dead giveaway. Fanny pack purpose built is one option and any cop that sees it is going to know it for what it is, the purpose built ones are very obvious, so be prepared for some looks and closer scrutiny.

A colt type 1911 is choice, they are big, heavy and as such you may decide not to carry it because of this. They come in smaller sizes but the smaller the frame the harder they are to learn to control so keep that in mind. Find a local range that rents and try a variety out.
The smallest I would go would be a .38, Taurus makes a nice 5 shot snubbie, reliable, small, use lead wad cutters vs jacketed or hollow base wad cutters loaded backwards for max expansion. Browning used to make a .380 w/14 round mag cap, small, flat and alotta bullets, limited to ball ammo unless you can find a hollow point that will feed reliably though a good gunsmith can modify the ramp to work.
For the bedroom, 12ga pump, mount it behind your headboard so you can reach over and grab it, its out of sight instead of having it standing in a corner in plain view.
Charter arms used to make a really nice .44 special called a bulldog, 5 shot but small and stainless steel. You might find one used. There will probably be alot of other suggestions but this is not a cheap proposition, a good shoulder rig is going to cost around $100, $60 for a good belt rig, $50 for a good ankle rig if you go small revolver or auto and don't wear shorts.
Make whatever you do part of your lifestyle, like putting your watch on when you get dressed because the first time you figure 'the heck with it' that will be when you need it...murphys law.
I would also recommend that both your wife and you get the CCW's, Smith & Wesson has a full shooting course for personal defense at their factory and I don't know if they take it on the road but they supply the weapons and ammo and the course is 2-4 days depending on handgun, shotgun or both.
 
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Straight chit, defense only works in rings/ lines of defence/defense in depth or simply put, options. Stratigically placed outside lighting (if they light in the daytime also, so what) with integrated motion detectors. You can wire the motion detectors to a chime (different tones), so you know which went off. Unless you want to turn your house into a bunker, forget windows and doors, for the most part. Except common sense security precautions. Don´t lock your house down so tight, you can´t get out quick, in a fire (you´d be surprised how many times that has happened).
Get a dog, Shepards are good, two are better than one. I´ve found a Shepard and a Terrier to be the best pair, both female. it´s best to buy a 6-8 month old Shepard, partially trained, for watch and defence. Terriers are naturally, wired and watchfull. They keep each other, company.
Have a plan, HAVE A PLAN. Without a plan , most everything else is usless.
To skip the sequence a bit, you really have to think of handguns as a replacement for a fist. They are only, really reliable, at touching distance. An instructor of mine, used to say, a pistol for all practical purposes, is to be used, with the barrel against the bad guys body. A shotgun is a better choice, more options, A shotgun makes a pretty good club, along with a substantial pucker factor. Shotgun slugs, will most times, go right through a car.
Hand gun choice, short barrel (2 !/2, 3 or 4 inch), because the flash and noise is also a part of the deterant (train so you and the dogs, get used to it). I prefer old fashioned, slow lead bullets. And a double action revolver, one empty chamber, under the hammer (no reason really, just habit), no safety to worry about, almost absolutely reliable (practice with your speed loaders).
If you have children a HK P7/8 or 13 is a good choice, as children have trouble with the squeeze cocker. I learned a long time ago, trusting your life to one weapon is stupid. I always have a selection handy. Shotgun, with a pistol back up and a folding pocket knife handy. I have small stacks of bricks, placed at stratic locations around the property, why not.
Back to defence in depth, baseball bat, broomstick, an assortment of weapons in stratigic locations. Razor sharp, machete, hand axe, why not, self defence is a mind set.
Talk to the nieghbors, especially the oldsters. The Oldsters often have sleepless nights. If they have a phone and speed dial, you can make it easy, by programing your number in. Talk with them often, make friends, an occasional treat from the bakery, means a lot, to old timers.
Whatever you decide, training and planning, is actually more important, than the choice of weapon.
I worked for a Government agency, pyshical security mostly. But did take personal, common sense, precautions.
If your worried about being labeled a paranoid, you can always consol yourself ,that paranoia is a survival trait.
Get some advice form a lawyer. He can give you the latest, acceptable version of the truth. Mine has always been, I aimed for his leg and jerked the trigger, because I was nervous and hit him in the heart by accident (three times :laugh3: ).
The dogs, the pistol, the lighting all for under $1500-2000.
Lastly, if you are being threatend, vary your routine. Most people get taken out by pros, on there way to the car, early in the morning.
A lesson learned in another war, 3 AM is a bad time. Sleep in the early evening and watch the all night movies to stay awake. You´ll get used to the change in routine quick.
Send your wife to a personal defence pistol course.
Lastly, I trained my kids, from the time they could crawl, not to touch my guns. Label me whatever, but I´d lay an empty gun in the middle of the living room and everytime my pre toddler would touch it, she (and later he) got a switch across the back of the legs. The worst that´s ever happened to me, was a call from school one day, that my son had brought a bullet to school, One I´d lost, cleaning my pockets out, after a hunt.
 
CRASH said:
Red, being you are in WA state, where it is EXTREMELY easy to get a concealed carry permit, is that the route you are going? I assume since you are entertaining a handgun, that's where you are headed?

If we are sticking to inside the house only, 12 guage is the way. Let us know if we are talking about portable defense, and we can make some recommendations.

CRASH

Filed for a CC over 15 years ago. Never renewed it.

STRICTLY indoor use..err..defense.
 
for indoor use i'd also agree on a 12G......another thing i would invest in is a high powered paintball gun....sounds stupid i know, but the kids would know how to use it....and it leaves pretty damn big welts, along with paint marks if you hit them at close enough range.
 
Just out of curiostiy....Why ONLY millitary. Now you millitary guys don't take offence to this...But Just because someone is in the military does not mean they know crap about a hand gun.

I know we have a few guys here who are military or used to be AND are gun experts but I also know tons of Civies who are just as qualified to answer your question as a military dude.

Personaly I will tell you if you only want to defend your house a shot gun is a good way to go. HOWEVER you can be attacked anywhere. This is why I have a CCW and carry everywhere I go where its legal to do so (NOT the airport)

Another thing I have to say is no matter what you buy...once you get it...practice practice practice...Especialy if you buy a pistol.

Consider taking a defensive shooting course...Hopefully run by ex or current millitary or cop gun expert.

You can not shoot enough to become proficiant at shooting someone but if you know how your gun works and can easily fire it even if you are mostly asleep it will greatly help your chances of survival.
 
Re-read his post. Note the commas. :) Military was but one of three.

Shotgun is a good choice. I prefer my pistol, but that is just me. Both are handy. :)
 
First things first - you and your wife (and anyone else older than, say, eight) go NOW and get basic firearms safety and marksmanship training. You'll probably need another course for CCW, but begin at the beginning.

Find a range that allows handgun rental. My suggestion is to try a couple models of .357 (with .38Spl and .357Mag) that feel right - Smith & Wesson and Ruger make decent wheelguns, and try out a 1911-model .45ACP and a .40 or two. 10mm is a bit big for most users, and the 9mm is just plain useless - I don't know why we ever bothered to put them in the inventory - Europe isn't always right, you know...

Figure out something that both of you like, and that you think the kids can use effectively. Bear in mind that if you select an auto (especially a 1911!) you can change parts and tune to all but eliminate felt recoil - I can give you advice on that, and using drop-in parts.

If you select a revolver, start doing some wrist and forearm exercises so you don't notice the recoil so much - there's nothing you can do to the gun to reduce it. You can go with a lighter load, but that reduces the terminal effectiveness of the firearm, and becomes self-defeating.

If you both settle on different firearms, get both, and KNOW HOW TO USE BOTH. You will always perform best with the equipment you're used to, but you should know how to use everything.

As far as accuracy, you aren't going to be shooting at competition, and I've never met a box-stock firearm that wasn't "combat accurate" - meaning you could empty it into a dinner plate at 15 yards or less. My 1991, with minimal accurising, puts all 8 into a plate at 25 yards - but I've been shooting for more years than I should readily admit to (I've been training for about 18 now.)

Another important thing to think about is defence ammo - you won't practice with it (it's a little spendy,) but you need to find something that will behave like it in practice - that's why I don't select anything really exotic for defensive work. My favourite for the .45 is the Federal Hydra-Shok hollowpoint, and my wife has .357 Hydra-Shoks in her old issue piece. Both loads are nearly duplicated in function and ballistics by less expensive ammunition, which simplifies practice.

What calibres do I consider acceptable for personal defence? The .45ACP is pretty much king with me - it's never let me down. Carried it all through my six years in SOCOM, and it has never - not even once - not done the job I needed it to. A well-maintained 1911 has never let me down either - excepting when using dirt cheap ammo. The 1911 also has the ability to be quickly converted to use .22LR ammo for plinking, practice, and fun - and the .22 isn't a bad short-range defensive load (more on that in a bit.) (Auto)

The .38/.357 is a nice pair for general use - you can "plink" with the .38 to get a feel for shooting, and step up to the .357 when you're ready. Both work as defensive loads - but I'd want to move up to the .357 as soon as possible. If you use the .38, do so with "wad cutter" or "semi-wad cutter" bullets, the flat face maximises energy transfer into the target. (Revolver)

If you feel up to the task, the .44Spl/.44Mag is also a good pairing, and can be had in fairly compact packages. It's going to be a bit stouter than the .38/.357, but it gets the full and undivided attention of pretty much anything you need to shoot. (Revolver)

The .40 can be had on so many frames it isn't even funny. It's about the smallest autopistol round I'd use for defence (not counting the .22LR - I'll get there...) and you can select nearly any format you like - I like the Rugers, and the Colt Defender is out there, but you'll probably have to find it used. Ammo is relatively inexpensive and readily available - especially since most PD's that have (mistakenly) accepted the 9mm have finally started thinking and have traded the nines in for .40's. (Auto)

For revolvers, I'd likely select a Smith & Wesson or a Ruger. I DO NOT suggest getting the lightweight/exotic metal frames, since the reduction in mass translates to greater felt recoil upon the hand. You want that little bit of extra weight from using steel - it helps. I'd go so far as to use Stainless - but that's just me.

For autos - similar advice. I prefer autos based upon Browning's designs (mostly the 1911/1991 and Browning Hi-Power,) I think the Berettas are crap, and the Glocks aren't bad (I just have short stubby fingers, and don't like double-column mags. I have a hard time getting a good grip on them.) If possible, get a steel frame instead of polymer - for similar reasons as the steel autos. Also, selecting an 1911/1991 or BHP pattern will give you a lot of options for spare parts and tuning - mostly requiring nothing more than field-stripping your piece to install the parts. Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Les Baer, Wilson, and a lot of other outfits make good 1911/1991-patterned autos - but figure out something you like.

Don't bother with a 9mm for defence - it's got a lot of energy when it hits, but does a poor job of transferring it into the target - which then goes wasted. There are documented instances of police shooting suspects upwards of a dozen time with a 9mm and then getting themselves clobbered - and the vic is found with holes all the way through him. If the bulled exits, that's wasted energy. It does no good to have high-powered ammunition if the power is not expended into the target - and that increases the risk of "collateral damage" - someone behind your assailant can be hit with one of your rounds AFTER it penetrates - but YOU are still liable. Do the job right - go with something that hits, expands, then STOPS.

The .22 is an exception to many things - the thing I like about it is that it is light - and can carry easily - is compact, and those little rounds have a lot of energy behind them. They also have a habit of "tumbling" inside the victim - which causes damage all out of proportion to them and also minimises or eliminated the possibility of collateral damage. The fact that it is light and small makes it something you won't mind carrying all the time - and I'd rather have a .22 on my belt than a .44 at home, if it hits the fan while I'm not home. The .22 can be had in autos and revolvers, and the ammo is so damn cheap there's no good reason not to get your practise.


For indoor use, I will suggest a pump 12 gage, filled with #4 buckshot and a "modified" choke. The #4 buck is excellent for home use - it gives a useful number of pellets going to the target, each one has a good share of energy to transfer, the lead pellets tend to deform when they hit (meaning that the energy is transferred mostly or totally to the target,) and they're not so big that you'll overpenetrate with the ones that miss and end up shooting your neighbour. Shotgun ammo is also inexpensive, so you can get in plenty of practise.

I suggest a pump because I have NEVER, NOT ONCE had a pump let me down - even after being dragged through sand, mud, snow, and/or water. Get some range time in, and get used to slapping that pump back and forth - they like abuse. The Winchester 1200/1300/1400, Mossberg 500/590, and Remington 870 are all good choices here.
DO NOT get the pistol grip or folding stock - having the full stock increases your options (ever hear the term "butt-stroked?" Means whacking them with the less dangerous end...) and the pistol grips tend to annoy most female shooters, since it's a sharper impact to the hand. You can still fire a shotgun from the hip with a full stock - in fact, it's easier due to the angle of the grip.

I also agree with RichP - the first time you don't take it with you will be the first time you need it. It's like your pocketknife - if someone asks me if I have my blade, I answer "I'm wearing pants, aren't it?" I've carried some sort of blade every day since my fifth birthday - save Basic, since they didn't let us there. Pulled it out of my mufti and put it back where it belonged as soon as I go to Keesler for Tech - I still feel naked without it.

Which reminds me, a knife is ALWAYS a good adjunct to a pistol, and Gerber and Benchmade both make excellent hard-use knives. Again, pick something you like, and ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have it with you. Since CA isn't civilised enough to allow CCW of a firearm, I have my Emerson CQC-7B(LH) and my Gerber-bulit Applegate/Fairbairn folder always available, and my Benchmade Rescue Hook and my Gerber Multi-Plier 600DET are always handy.

If you are going to carry a firearm, you're probably going to carry it on your belt. There are a few ways to go here - I usually wear a Rigger's belt - which is double-layer Nylon, vertically stiffened, and has a "Delta" ring up front next to the buckle. It doubles as an emergency climb/rappel harness, and carries all kinds of stuff for me. You can usually find these for about $30, but they require wide belt loops.

You can also find "formal" belts - they're stiffened leather, and look like dress belts. I know Blackhawk Industries carries a few, and it wouldn't take much looking to find others.

A light coverup usually does well in the summer, if you piece is small enough and the cover is loose enough. I've often carried under an unbuttoned shirt - wearing a tank top underneath. It's a common enough look that no-one looks twice at it. When I bought my suit and my tux, I had both tailored to allow "printless" carry - which has also come in handy from time to time.

If you're genuinely worried about your safety, and have the option, DEFINITELY get your CCW, and keep it up. You'd be amazed how naked you can feel if you don't have it because you can't get it (I can't wait to repatriate myself...) You can still find ways to defend yourself, but I don't like having limited options.

You might also want to look into a "real" defence class - Massad Ayoob puts on an excellent course at his Lethal Force Institute, and Gunsite is still getting high marks (even without COL Cooper running the show anymore.) Consider it "advanced" training - one of you go take it and come back to teach the other one. After all, the best way to truly master a skill is to teach it to someone else.

Once you pick up some knowledge of defence and tactics (mainly "fire and movement,") both of you flush your house out of your mind, then take another look. Figure out places that you can conceal yourself with that command a good field of view, and know the difference between "concealment" (hiding from view) and "cover" (hiding yourself from incoming fire.) If you feel the need, it's not a bad idea to build yourself some true "cover" - you can do this by changing doors and lining walls according to needs.

I've gone on long enough, I'm sure, but do feel free to PM or email me if you have any more questions that I can help with. I've spent quite a lot of time teaching people to deal with the sort of threats you're seeing, and I've not had any complain!

5-90
[email protected]

"It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have."
 
Benelli M3 Super90 for home defense...

You can even use "specialty" rounds in the pump setting...

If you can't solve a problem with a good 12 guage...

well then...

hmmmm.jpg


...and yes that's an ACOG on an RPB M11

:D
 
Rabbi, call me tonight after 6. We'll chat. I've got some literature I'll send that you can borrow. Would really enjoy the ability to sit down with you and set you down the right path. ;)
 
ECKSJAY said:
Rabbi, call me tonight after 6. We'll chat. I've got some literature I'll send that you can borrow. Would really enjoy the ability to sit down with you and set you down the right path. ;)


Once again...I see my SECURITY staff is up to the challenge.

About time I made a good decision.
 
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