Getting duped by car repair places...be informed

KY Chris

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Louisville, KY
Man, this burns me up. A friend called me because he was informed by a reputable import mechanic that the cat on his 2000 VW Jetta (60k miles) was toast and it was gonna be $880 to replace it. This quote was only to replace the cat. Not any 02 sensors or other emissions related components. The total bill was gonna be 1400 for other misc. BS like a $80 diagnostic charge! Nothing but the cat. Hmmm, that sounded a little messed up so he called me to ask what I thought. I told him to check the owners manual because I knew or thought that all car companies were required by the EPA to warranty the emission control equip for 80,000 miles. I knew this because I almost got screwed over by a VW dealership a few years ago when I was quoted $350 to replace an Idle-Air stabilizer valve which was covered, and because when I got a new cat for my Jeep last month, the muffler shop asked me my mileage because of the same warranty deal.

What a load of crap.
I am sure that thousands of dollars in unnecessarily shelled out bucks go into these guys pockets because the consumer knows no better.
And anyway, who the hell charges $880 to replace a cat. Geez.

Check this site for more info:

http://www.allpar.com/dealers/warranty.html
 
As a mechanic, I'll play devil's advocate. First off, your 'BS' diagnostic charge. Does the Doctor look at you for free, and only charge you when you do work? No. Same thing with a mechanic. Most of them are payed on Flat Rate. Means, they only get paid, when you pay the repair shop. If they tell you a water pump takes 1 hour, and the tech makes $10/hr. He changes your water pump and it takes him 1.5 hours, he only gets that 1 hour, or $10. It's possible for him to only get paid for working 20 hours in a 40 hour work week, so yes they have to charge you a diagnostic fee. Most 'real' repair facilities won't even look at a car for less that 1/2 hour diag charge, and that's for thing small and simple. If its rough running or etc, one hour is industry standard. If the tech looks at the car for one hour, and still does not know what's wrong, you have 2 choices pay more for more diagnosis, or come pay the diag fee and get your car. Doesn't mean it's fixed.

As for the price of the cat. Where was the cat? Most new cars have the cat built into the exhaust manifold, to heat the cat up to operating temp quicker per EPA standards for ULEV, TLEV and other emissions requirments. That $880 probably included 2-3 hours time to R&R the part so at $80 an hour (that's average) and 3 hour labor, $240 of that is labor cost. Leaves $640 for the part alone. Most likely they had no choice but to buy this from the dealer. We all know dealer parts are expensive, and if infact it was built into the manifold, that's a very good price, believe me, very good price. Don't forget misc clamps and/or gaskets.

As far as the emissions warranty, how is the individual shop supposed to know? Some magic warranty fairy comes around and tells everyone about it? No, independant shops that deal with every make, model, etc don't worry about warranty. They can't, it would take too much time. Infact, they have no way of knowing if a car has an extended warranty, factory warranty, tire warranty, or whatever. They have no way of looking that information up, for one, because it changed almost year to year with what was covered and not covered. Independants usually find out about these warranties from techs that come from dealerships into the independant world, and inform their managers about such warranties. The second part of that, is it is the car owners responsability to know what their warranty is, maintenance schedule is, and how to operate their car, period. It is not the repair facility's job to know this information, and like I have said, they can't. You have no idea how many owners manuals I look through that have never been opened till me.

I suggest you take your car to the dealer even after the warranty is up (at least till the vehicle is maybe 5 or 6 years old). Recalls get done, even if you don't know about them. Tech updates to parts, where Joe Schmoe Independant might R&R your thermostat, but if the dealer has an updated part noted in a Tech bullitin that never sees the public, Joe Schmoe is just replacing your part with a predated one. You end up paying for it again and again until somewhere down the road the updated part makes it in the right hands. It might take NAPA 3 years to update thier parts.

KY Chris, this kind of slander is what gives mechanics a bad name. When in actuality, I see nothing wrong with what happened. The only thing that could have been improved upon, is if the repair shop knew about the 8/80 warranty. But I think I have beaten that dead horse already.
 
I am not trying to slander anyone. I certainly don't mean to give mechanics in general a bad name. I understand the basis of a diagnostics charge. I would not have expected that for free. I understand that the shop owner has to pay his mechanics. I, personally, don't understand how a $340 cat should cost $880 installed. There are good and bad mechanics just like there are good and bad doctors, lawyers, or what have you. I understand that 95% of the population never opens their owners manual. That is their fault. I post this as an example of why the consumer needs to be aware of their rights, and why they SHOULD crack open those manuals. I mean it as a point of information. Sorry if I came off half cocked, but I know that I would have wanted a second estimate if that was my car, or at least to have known about the emissions warranty. Hopefully this shop owner will pass on the information about it to future customers.
 
all in all I will have to say that personally I have been burned at almost every recent visit to a mechanic, as well as my parents and friends.... More and more often people (companies) hire people who are less and less competent cause they are cheap and that allows the company to be more and more competetive (btw I am even talking abotu 5 start dealerships now!). As an end result their diagnostics seem to be more of a guessing game and replacement of parts (Which you end up paying for) is on a trial/error basis... as in.. it might fix or might not, but it shouldn't hurt....

As an example, my dad had his van in to a dealership as it was stalling every so often. To date he had just rebuilt recently the engine, replaced everything in the air intake area, all the sensors, fuel pump and everything.... the dealership has it for couple days runs whole bunch of tests and finally says: $500 for fuel pump replacement (Or something like that). My dad gets pissed, takes the van out of there and the van dies right around the corner.... it seems that they were so bent on running tests, that they emptied the tank and finally when they checked fuel pressure... it was wavering.... cause.... THERE WAS NO MORE GAS!!!!! (btw, the van went in with 16 gallons of gas 3 days before).

Oh.. and kicker... you know what part was bad? The little hose that keeps the backflow pressure... and that dealership before suggesting fuel pump (For wrong reasons as with gas in tank it held pressure as I tested it later myself) has rebuilt the carburator (it was throttle body injected engine, and they called the whole area there a carburator.. not sure if that's right name or that though).

So I guess I will side with consumers for most part on this... finding a good mechanic is MIGHTY hard nowadays

Kejtar
 
If it's not slander, it's not slander. It just seemed that you were spouting off without having all the information. Sorry. If that cat is $340, you also have to take into consideration of where it is, and what needs to be removed to get to it. Some cars, the engine needs to be all but removed to get to the cat, rack and pinion moved, radiator removed, etc depending on how badly the manufacturer designed those components accessibility. A good shop would be using one of the few labor time estimating guides by Mitchell, All-data, etc. Some shops just look at the part and fly by the seat of their pants on what to charge for labor. Sometimes they get bit if it looks easier than it is, but usually they come out ahead.

A customer is only required to pay the diag fee they agreed upon. After that, your friend could have easily called around to other places to get quotes. I wouldn't expect immediate quotes, leave a number and have them call back, especially on a part such as a dealer only item, where they'd have to do some footwork to get the quote.

Of course there are good and bad shops, and good and bad technicians. I'd say there are much more good than bad, and what may come off as bad, is usually inexperience. Technicians are leaving the field in record number. I once saw a study done by (believe it or not) Hillary Clinton in 95. The study compared mechanics from 65 to 95. In 65 (I am trying to go by memory, so it's not exact, but close) the average car mechanic needed to know 150 pages of text to fix almost any car on the road. In 95 that same mechanic would need to know 215,000 pages of text to fix the same percentage of cars. There was also a specification on wages from then to 95, but I don't remember it exactly. It basically said that wages have not kept up with inflation. Basically, mechanics have to know more, and get paid less than 1965. Therefore, the good ones are not staying in the field. That plus the need for larger dealerships and more mechanics, has caused an influx of newer, younger mechanics (greener too).

I suggest that you find a good mechanic, dealership or other, and keep him. If you deal with the same person everytime, the mechanic usually hold himself to a higher standard, and he knows that you know who is working on his car, not some anonymous mechanic. He know he (not the dealership) will personally let down the customer if everything is not right. When you go to a dealership, you can ask for that particular mechanic each time. He also gets to know your car better.
 
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