filling tires with nitrogen

[jaylovitt]

I converted a nitrogen tank for a cheap on board air. I know tractors and commercial trucks fill there tires with nitrogen my question is there any special procedures to filling tires with nitrogen and if there any reason this would be a bad idea.

 

[Achmed]

Nitrogen is great because the pressure will not change with the tires heating and cooling like air/co2 will. Alot of dealershops use it. Go for it.

 

[5-90]

It's doable - but it's more for racing teams and (some) heavy equipment types.

Nitrogen damn sure will change pressure with heat! cf. Boyle's Law. However, the change is not as drastic as it would be with CA or CO2, and nitrogen is easier to make "dry" than CA - meaning you don't have anywhere near as much water vapour in there (which screws with Boyle's Law even more.)

Any gas will change pressure as a result of changes in contained volume or temperature - the difference becomes how much it will change. Using dry nitrogen will give you a better, more consistent (and more predictable!) change than using standard CA - or even a fill from an HPA cannister.

CO2 - Carbon Dioxide (obviously)
CA - Compressed Air
HPA - High-Pressure Air (like the charges in SCBA/SCUBA tanks. Air stored at upwards of 1000psig working pressure.

 

[Jess]

I don't know how much nitrogen costs, but it seems it could get expensive wheeling alot and airing up. Can you use air tools with nitrogen?

My AC does not work anyway, so I am planning OBA with the stock compressor and a tank in the back. The only cost that way is the fittings and copper pipe to plumb the system initially.

 

[jaylovitt]

I have a regulator to 110 psi and used air tools and worked fine. I made sure to oil my tools first. Anyway it was just my harbor freight tools I use on the trail.

 

[5-90]

I don't know how much nitrogen costs, but it seems it could get expensive wheeling alot and airing up. Can you use air tools with nitrogen?

My AC does not work anyway, so I am planning OBA with the stock compressor and a tank in the back. The only cost that way is the fittings and copper pipe to plumb the system initially.

You can run "air" tools on pretty much any compressed gas - HPA, nitrogen, CO2 (be careful you don't freeze the regulator!,) HPO2, propane, whatever. Air tools don't care chemically, they just want to be kept lubed and "dry" (no water.)

The main issue with CO2 is that it is stored as a liquid under pressure (~1300psig or so,) and other gases are not. Since CO2 is stored as a liquid, you have to make sure to set up your tank as an "anti-syphon" tank (where the valve will not pick up liquid CO2,) and use a regulator for a CO2 system that will help prevent it from freezing. Either that, or use an anti-syphon tank with some variety of "bottle blanket" to keep the thing warm - if you've played paintball, you probably know what I mean (ever freeze up a marker? Some of the fancier ones can and do. That's why I still use a VM-68 - it don't care. I've run it on nitrogen, HPA, syphon CO2, anti-syphon CO2, ...)

You can even run airtools on nitrous - if that's all you have. Again, just keep the gas dry and oil the 'tool. You might have difficulty getting to connect a fitting for the hose, but it can be done. Nitrous has the same limitation as CO2 tho - liquid under pressure, cryo side effects, ...

 

[HotwiredXJ]

The Earth's atmosphere is a layer of gases surrounding the planet Earth and retained by the Earth's gravity. It contains roughly (by molar content/volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, trace amounts of other gases, and a variable amount (average around 1%) of water vapor. This mixture of gases is commonly known as air. The atmosphere protects life on Earth by absorbing ultraviolet solar radiation and reducing temperature extremes between day and night.

Does Pure Nitrogen make that much of a differance?

 

[woody]

I think it's biggest advantage (in our applications) is where the gas must be as moisture-free as possible (like in expensive shocks)

If a tank of nitrogen is of comparable cost to a tank of carbon dioxide, either one would be fine for trail use (OBA equivalent) for airing up or limited air tool use.

 

[TunaSoda]

I'm going to fill my tires with helium so as to have better floatation in the mud...

 

[53guy]

Depending on where you work, Nitrogen is stupid cheap. (free from the NAN cart!)

 

[carrlf]

5-90 Im not sure if your talking about liquid nitrogen being liquid but nitrogen is actually all air based, its different from liquid nitrogen. Nitrogen is also used in paintball, fuel the markers to shoot. As far as being better, yes its way better than co2, you dont get the pressure up and downs like you get with co2, its more stable, if nitrogen gets hot in your car than it doesnt really change, but co2 will change from liquid to gas, and will usually blow out of your safety disc. As far as cost, I know in paintball you can get a 68 cu inch tank filled to 4500 psi for about 5 bucks. Nitrogen is regualted better than co2 because its all gas. Overall better product and you could get a paintball nitrogen tank for about 300 dollars.

 

[cpolish24]

Yes, it is better and in some cases. You can get your tires filled in certain tire shops for free. You just have to make sure that when you gett your tires filled by thoughs shops that they purg your tires atlease 2 times, because you done get the effect of nigrogen unless the air ratio is 95% nitrogen or more. Before i changed jobs, i worked at the nissan dealer in town, and because all 07' models have to have tire pres. sens. the tire light would come on, even if the tires were 1 psi off(especially at high alt. 4000ft +). So the solution was nitogen. And it worked great, my customers came in about once every 6mo or every other oil change/service to get them topped off. I have to say first hand that i saw a big difference with nitrogen vs. air. besides that all of the techs including my self felt a big difference in ride quality, especially when the tires were cold( flat spoting). for example the 350z or my wifes saab( low profile tires) but i noticed the differance in my xj to. I think its nice to have, but to me it was only worth it because it was free:laugh: ... I like free!

 

[5-90]

5-90 Im not sure if your talking about liquid nitrogen being liquid but nitrogen is actually all air based, its different from liquid nitrogen. Nitrogen is also used in paintball, fuel the markers to shoot. As far as being better, yes its way better than co2, you dont get the pressure up and downs like you get with co2, its more stable, if nitrogen gets hot in your car than it doesnt really change, but co2 will change from liquid to gas, and will usually blow out of your safety disc. As far as cost, I know in paintball you can get a 68 cu inch tank filled to 4500 psi for about 5 bucks. Nitrogen is regualted better than co2 because its all gas. Overall better product and you could get a paintball nitrogen tank for about 300 dollars.

Nitrogen is stored as a gas under high pressure - it requires cryogenic storage to be held as a liquid. CO2 can be stored as a "liquid under pressure," since its boiling point is relatively high (IIRC, CO2 will turn into a liquid at around 700psig or so.)

It is this "liquid under pressure" that can make CO2 fairly dicey when consistency is required.

When I talk about a "dry" gas, I mean that there is little to no water vapour suspended in the gas stream - rather like CDA (Clean Dry Air) used with some manufacturing equipment. CDA is simply compressed air that has been "dried" (dehumidified) and "scrubbed" (suspended dust and suchlike removed, so as to not clog small ports and fine filters) before and after compression. "Dry" in CG situations tends to refer specifically to water vapour content. "Liquid" can refer to the liquid phase of a gas - note that many markers have "expansion chambers" available in case the tank should give with CO2 liquid, which allows sufficient pressure reduction for the stuff to flash into a gas. Not necessary with nitrogen or HPA setups.

That was what I meant when I used the word "dry" in the previous post. Considering the working pressures of typical tanks, I'd probably prefer using an expansion chamber with two-stage pressure regulation (especially with CO2 setups!) to keep pressures a bit more consistent. Even if sucking up cryo liquid isn't a problem, the expansion chamber will provide a buffer for the second regulator. I'd consider an EC mandatory when using CO2.

Then again, I've seen what can happen when HPG tank setups go West on you, so I'm paranoid. I deal with HP oxygen every day (for the MIL - we've got two MC-6 bottles that work around 2000psig when full, and I've got a D bottle around for emergencies...) so that makes me a bit more paranoid.

But I was serious about air tools being able to be run on pretty much anything. Consider an airgun - the simplest of air tools (pressure chamber, release valve, and projectile barrel.) Those for airsoft are typically run on a variation of "ozone safe" refrigerant, but also it is also common to run them on propane from a portable tank of some variety when charging "gas-powered" pistols. You can buy adapters to do so.

I've also seen some paintball markers that were converted to run on propane. While this strikes me as a bit expensive, it's not overly so - and propane is more consistent than CO2 in use, and you don't have to worry about getting propane bottle recertified periodicially - since they're disposable anyhow. An interesting approach. Since commercial propane in the smaller tanks is "dry" anyhow, it's not a problem (propane for running industrial machinery cannot be considered "dry" - it contains a reasonably large amount of suspended liquefied beeswax, used for lubricating the pressure regulator/gas converter before the carburettor. However, propane for torches and barbecue grills can be considered "dry" - no converter, hence no lubrication.)