Economic stimulus naysaysers!

[Ecomike]

8mud (and others),

If you ever get the chance, check out a book called "On A Clear Day You can see General Motors"

Author: John Delorean

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Day-You-General-Motors/dp/0960356207

It was an eye opener for me to read (back in the 80s, before he started the Delorean company), and myself being an engineer like Delorean. Probably the most insitefull book I ever read about this entire topic.

 

[XJEEPER]

It's called built in obsolescence. The term used to be synonymous with consumables like light bulbs, and printer cartridges (you know, cheap stuff). Now its made its way to big screen TVs, cars, and even homes. It would be nice if they made stuff to last, but that's not going to happen while corporations run the planet.

Again with the evil corporations.......typically anything man-made is expendable. Consumer demand drives the rapidly changing technology, which also creates an obsolesence factor.

If you wanted to work on an 8086 processor-based computer and transmit data via a 9600 baud modem and burn images to a 5 1/4" floppy disc, you could still be using the rock-solid 80's technology. Unfortunatly, you would be the only one..........

Do you think the government has the ability to invent stuff that never wears out and constantly evolves to keep up with the ever-changing demand? :looney: Welcome to the Dark Ages, Urban.

BTW, I believe that God runs the planet.......

 

[urban yan]

You're right of coarse. Corporations consume undesirable things like pollution, greed, and war. In return, they fart out a pleasant fragrance of lollipops, fairy tales of bunny love, and peace on earth. In fact, those exact words are written in their charters.

 

[8Mud]

Again with the evil corporations.......typically anything man-made is expendable. Consumer demand drives the rapidly changing technology, which also creates an obsolesence factor.

If you wanted to work on an 8086 processor-based computer and transmit data via a 9600 baud modem and burn images to a 5 1/4" floppy disc, you could still be using the rock-solid 80's technology. Unfortunatly, you would be the only one..........

Do you think the government has the ability to invent stuff that never wears out and constantly evolves to keep up with the ever-changing demand? :looney: Welcome to the Dark Ages, Urban.

BTW, I believe that God runs the planet.......

Sure much of the junk is going to become obsolete, stuff like washing machines are unlikely to have any sort of technological quantum leaps.
I have a good name, top of the line washing machine. The drum seal is a sick joke and when it does go the water leaks exactly on the motor bearings and shaft. Either a spastic five year old designed the thing and it's just an accident or some sharp engineer and a number cruncher are laughing all the way to the bank.
Industries answer to the energy crises and CO2 emissions is to sell you an energy efficient appliance. It's likely any energy savings are used up in manufacture and doubled in the fuel used in service calls.
The stimulus package is just subsidizing more of the same corporate greed. With likely about the same results, the consumer will eventually be milked dry. Between taxes, money managers, speculators and industry, they are determined to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs and likely to shoot themselves in the foot during the process.
The Germans and the Jews, one of the main reason given for eliminating the Jews was they were a drain on society, they didn't actually produce anything. Almost seventy years later, the majority of the Germans are doing exactly the same and hire immigrants to do their dirty work.
"I have met the enemy and he is us"

 

[XJEEPER]

Where does the Green movement fit into this equation? They help to create government policy, which they in turn profit from and are also taxpayer subsidized......and they just recieved a couple of hundred billion in Obama's taxpayer-supplied stimulus funds.

Government is constantly updating energy standards which forces businesses to be compliant, which creates component or product obsolesense.

The Government also sets the standards for Automobiles http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CARS/rules/CAFE/overview.htm which force manufacturers to constantly improve mileage and reduce emissions, which also effects the cost of the vehicles and components and their obsolesense.

 

[Ecomike]

Where does the Green movement fit into this equation? They help to create government policy, which they in turn profit from and are also taxpayer subsidized......and they just recieved a couple of hundred billion in Obama's taxpayer-supplied stimulus funds.

Government is constantly updating energy standards which forces businesses to be compliant, which creates component or product obsolesense.

The Government also sets the standards for Automobiles http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CARS/rules/CAFE/overview.htm which force manufacturers to constantly improve mileage and reduce emissions, which also effects the cost of the vehicles and components and their obsolesense.

Just curious, where did you get this "which force manufacturers.... to constantly improve mileage" idea from. I am guessing you have been hibernating awhile, and just woke back up recently?

 

[Ecomike]

BTW, I believe that God runs the planet.......

If that is true, (he, she or it) is doing a poor job for an omnipotent being.

Back on topic, Japans latest GDP was positive again.

Exxon, China and Australia just signed a 20 year, 41 billion dollar LNG deal.

 

[XJEEPER]

Just curious, where did you get this "which force manufacturers.... to constantly improve mileage" idea from. I am guessing you have been hibernating awhile, and just woke back up recently?

What's unclear? I've been awake for sometime......I guess to expand, the Obama Admin and the Green's have targeted SUV's as gas hogs and gross polluters, yet they are the top selling vehicles in the US, because they can safely haul families and pull toys. The Greens want them to disappear.

Now that GM and Chrysler are government subsidies, we shall see what they produce. They $40,000 Chevy Volt will be released soon, but the reality is, sales will be poor because the masses that spend $40,000 + on a vehicle are either buying a truck or SUV, or a luxury car that has lots of HP.

Enter government subsidy (my taxes) to bribe you to buy a car that you normally wouldn't own.

How do you make them more fuel efficient and safe? Turbo-diesels. But we can't have those in the US in an SUV.....for why?


Even more concerning, is who is setting policy for the next CAFE standards......wakey, wakey! The Climate Czar is here.......

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...n-secret-White-House-CAFE-talks-50260677.html

 

[goodburbon]

And the governor of Alabama shot down our $10m LNG deal. The improved "mileage" crap is a joke. The international Scout had an available turbodiesel that got upwards of 25mpg 30 years ago. Jeep makes a turbodiesel wrangler and the gov't says it must be exported. Fed Gov't needs to butt the F out of everything that the constitution does not specify, which is %60 of everything they do.

I believe you know the benefits of small turbodiesel engines Mike.

 

[Ecomike]

You danced nicely all around the question which was "Constantly". You said what you wanted to say, but ignored my real question, "Constantly".

There has been no "Constantly" or even occasionally for some time, regarding mileage standards. Recently, YES, but not constantly.

 

[Ecomike]

And the governor of Alabama shot down our $10m LNG deal. The improved "mileage" crap is a joke. The international Scout had an available turbodiesel that got upwards of 25mpg 30 years ago. Jeep makes a turbodiesel wrangler and the gov't says it must be exported. Fed Gov't needs to butt the F out of everything that the constitution does not specify, which is %60 of everything they do.

I believe you know the benefits of small turbodiesel engines Mike.

Actually mine is naturally aspirated, 61 hp, 5 speed manual.

One case where I practice what I preach! :shiver:

 

[Ecomike]

And the governor of Alabama shot down our $10m LNG deal.

So tell me more about this? Was it related to a request to Alabama for corporate welfare for the project (tax breaks, funding, etc)? LOL.

Or what?

 

[goodburbon]

So tell me more about this? Was it related to a request to Alabama for corporate welfare for the project (tax breaks, funding, etc)? LOL.

Or what?

It was related to an application to the DEQ to install an offshore LNG terminal. The facility was going to use seawater in a heat exchanger (intake warmer near surface water, pass through a heat exchanger, discharge cooler water) The governor said he objected, the application was withdrawn and over a years worth of engineering work went down the tubes along with the construction and oversight jobs.

http://www.torplng.com/bienville_offshore_energy_terminal.php
http://www.energycurrent.com/index.php?id=3&storyid=13360

Sorry, not the DEQ, some weird Marine agency that we've never had to deal with before and has something to do with commerce.

 

[XJEEPER]

You danced nicely all around the question which was "Constantly". You said what you wanted to say, but ignored my real question, "Constantly".

There has been no "Constantly" or even occasionally for some time, regarding mileage standards. Recently, YES, but not constantly.

You're right, constantly isn't accurate. I'll try to pay closer attention when you bold words and make them red..........

 

[Ecomike]

You're right, constantly isn't accurate. I'll try to pay closer attention when you bold words and make them red..........

:clap:

But seriously, it is a rare opportunity when you leave me an opening to pick on, such as a word choice like that one, LOL.

One of the problems has been a lack of consistency (not constantly, LOL) in the energy policy of this country, (or lack of an energy policy) partly due to conflicting goals of different groups and corporations who's political control comes and goes, with each election cycle. And most do not want an energy policy, or even want to hear about one, until there is crisis. Once the crisis seems to be abated, people go back to screaming for free trade (meaning no energy policy).

 

[XJEEPER]

Warren Buffet on the Greenback Effect.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/opinion/19buffett.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=opinion

 

[8Mud]

:clap:

But seriously, it is a rare opportunity when you leave me an opening to pick on, such as a word choice like that one, LOL.

One of the problems has been a lack of consistency (not constantly, LOL) in the energy policy of this country, (or lack of an energy policy) partly due to conflicting goals of different groups and corporations who's political control comes and goes, with each election cycle. And most do not want an energy policy, or even want to hear about one, until there is crisis. Once the crisis seems to be abated, people go back to screaming for free trade (meaning no energy policy).

Pondering back from today to the early 70's. With a mind likely needing a good defrag . The majority of the power plants were changed from oil to coal (coal was abundant and we had our own), then to natural gas (which was at around the same time deregulated, companies merged the consumer got screwed), supplies ran low and/or became too costly, then changed back to coal again (some oil). Many (most) are now coal with scrubbers (acid rain, save the trees, though they finally figured out most fo the trouble was from an imported beetle). If memory serves me correctly, most of the changes (direction reversals) were Green initiatives with energy independence as the kicker. The whole while Atomic energy had a strong anti lobby. Much of the energy production changed directions and retrofitted multiple times in a twenty year period, knee jerk planning and implementation rarely works out well and in my experience wastes resources.
The economic stimulus package strikes me as a likely candidate for the knee jerk response of the decade and like Buffet says, every action has an equal (and often unexpected) reaction. Like the other guy said, encouraging people to new debt is likely doomed to failure and like I always say, throwing money at a problem rarely produces the desired effects.
The Germans answer to the fuel problem, was to produce tiny cars, double the price of fuel through taxes, the result is/was a whole lot of people died (no matter that the tests said that they were safe). The elephant in the room is, about half of the cars on the road (around here) are as large or larger than an XJ. Germans are a pragmatic people, they tend to go with what works, when it takes them hours to cut the neighbors kid out of his car one morning, they pay attention.
They encouraged diesel auto's for around a decade, because they were fuel efficient, even gave tax breaks. Now diesels are taxed extra, as most metropolitan areas are covered in soot. New diesels have soot filters, the older models have to be retrofitted, large portions of many metropolitan areas are closed to diesels.
IMO most of the knee jerk plans implemented are doomed to failure, because somebody forgot the six "P`s, prior planning prevents pisspoor performance.

 

[Ecomike]

Some updates:

Wall street indexes are up at new highs for the year again today in big part due to US home sales news today, and yesterday on news of large drops in crude oil and distillates inventories. Existing home sales on a month to month basis jumped at a rate that is the highest in 10 years! Claim is it is partly due to a rush to cash in on the $8,000 tax rebate for first time buyers that ends in mid Octobe (which I believe was part of the stimulus plan & budget).

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20090821/4a8e29d0_3ce2_1558620090821170675996

And for us XJ owners, Cash for clunkers dies on Monday. Obama announced the end of the program yesterday, it ends this coming Monday, evening.

I other news, Ecomike found a surprising 800% increase in JY XJs at my nearby friendly & closest JY this week compared to my last visit about a year ago. And all the new XJs in the JY were Pre-Cash for Clunker XJs!

 

[goodburbon]

This is obviously the stimulus working. Obama is a genius, who knew that all it would take to stimulate the economy was to suddenly approve every stupid moneywasting project that has been proposed in the last dozen years or so. I can't wait till we really get roaring again and people are borrowing and purchasing to their fullest ability then our economy will really be cookin'. We are going to be so much better off as a country in 10 years because we're printing more money, so we'll all have more money. I'm so excited I could just shit.

One of our clients just shut in 1200 natural gas wells, because it costs more to maintain and monitor them than they get from the price of Natural gas these days. Supply and demand. You want lower prices, you mandate an increase in wages, we'll see how that washes out in the end.

A little off topic, but I'm sitting over the most productive reef I have ever seen. We are catching Amberjack, Blackfin tuna, Wahoo, Ling, yellowfin tuna, Mahi-Mahi, and the divers are having to swat away the red snapper,squid, and triggerfish. Luckily the Environmentalists have lobbied against such evil things, and when we are done the government mandates that the seafloor here will be stripped bare to remove any trace of any human activity. Of course it will also destroy acres of habitat, but that nasty man made "trash" will be gone!

 

[Ecomike]

http://www.thestreet.com/story/1058....html?puc=_mdb_txt_pla12&cm_ven=EMAIL_mdb_txt

Home sales hit a new high.

goodburbon,

Let me know when the natural gas turns around (insiders view). Some of those stocks are dirt cheap with NG at a new low recently. I hear LNG imports are going to keep them low for some time, but as you know their are other dark (LOL) forces at work in the NG market.