CSF 3 Row Radiator the best way to go?

[IslanderOffRoad]

The csf is a great rad

I recommend motor mounts at the same time especially in 5spd rigs. Otherwise you'll put the fan through the rad if you like the skinny pedal

 

[Missiletech]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1097360

 

[OutkastBoss]

I have a CSF 3-row and it worked out great for me !

 

[Khary23]

I installed one in 2011 and my temp stays at 210 no matter the temperature.

 

[DrMoab]

I installed one in 2011 and my temp stays at 210 no matter the temperature.

Mine stays at 210 all summer but runs 180 in the winter.

 

[Ben824]

Ok I want to post an update on my Champion 2 row radiator. For those of you that have been following the whole thing or have read back through most of this thread, you know I made a post about my CSF 3 row to Champion 2 row swap. I ran the CSF for 7 years and it finally wore out on me so I wanted to try something that seemed like it might outlast the CSF. The Champion radiators often can be had for less than a CSF too. I am not saying the CSF is a bad radiator at all. The CSF was fantastic, kept my Jeep right at the right temperatures no matter what, and was a perfect drop in install. The Champion 2 row worked good but was not a direct bolt in. The transmission lines did not fit at all so some simple modifications had to be done to make that work. The lower transmission line made contact with some sheet metal causing some fitment issues, but this was nothing that a few quick hits with a mini sledge couldn't take care of. The Champion 2 row was a good radiator but it seemed as though it was only good if you had plenty of air coming across it. I am pretty sure my fan clutch needs replacing but in extremely hot stop and go summer Georgia temperatures, the Jeep would rise above 210 moving over to the next notch on the temp gauge. I had plans to upgrade to a 2 speed taurus e-fan to really move some air but never got around to it.

Now to what has recently happen occurred, I noticed my temps were climbing faster and overheating more often so I checked my reservoir and it was empty. I topped it off one day at autozone while on my lunch break, and by the time I had gotten back to work, which is only maybe 3 miles, the bottle was empty again. I waited an hour and went to poor directly into the radiator and emptied nearly two jugs of coolant into the radiator. This is when I realized I have a leak and started the hunt for the origin. Found it at the top 3 rows on the radiator where they meet at the tanks. Lucky for me the Champions have a lifetime warranty! Called up Champion and got the ball rolling on getting a replacement sent to me. Veronica at Champion called me back after we had talked and said "I have one small problem, I don't have any more 2 rows and don't know exactly when the next shipment will be here. Can I send you a 3 row instead?" Yes ma'am you can! So I got the 3 row! And wow I can tell they have really stepped their game up on quality control! I was in welding school at the local tech college for a while so I know how to weld aluminum and what a good weld looks like and there was some real talent that put the 3 row together. The 2 row I was replacing looked very amateur. They also seemed to have heard our complaints about the trans line fitment issues! They redesign the fitting and include two different fittings which I have pictured below.

So what are my results? I cannot get this new radiator to overheat at all! It cools better than my CSF ever did! In fact it runs cooler with the A/C on since that kicks on the e-fan and pulls even more air across this massive radiator! This thing is well bet and super cools!

I am also thinking now I might go for the dual 10 blade XJ e-fan instead of the taurus fan and have two setting for the fan with one having an in-line resistor to keep the speed lower so I can run the fan at two different speeds.

Here are the brief install photos and photos showing the differences I could see between my 2 year old Champion 2 row and my brand new Champion 3 row beast!

These are the other fittings for the trans lines. I cannot comment on their fitment since I made the modification to make the previous fitting work and now I have abandoned the factory setup altogether for an auxiliary trans cooler.

Old trans line setup on the 2 year old Champion 2 row.

2 Row Champion petcock

3 Row Champion petcock. This is still a brass fitting. You can see the better skill in the weld for the fitting it screws into.

So there it is. This radiator is awesome! I am looking forward to finally getting the dual e-fan setup done in the future but even right now with a suspect bad fan clutch this baby stays super cool even in the hot humid Southern heat!

 

[DrMoab]

Hope your three row champion doesn't blow up like mine and several others have.

I had the opposite experience you did. My champion three row blew up and they didn't have any so they gave me my money back. I put a csf in it and it cools better and fits better than the champion did.

Another thing I don't like about aluminum radiators is that radiator shops can't fix them.

 

[Ben824]

Hope your three row champion doesn't blow up like mine and several others have.

I had the opposite experience you did. My champion three row blew up and they didn't have any so they gave me my money back. I put a csf in it and it cools better and fits better than the champion did.

Another thing I don't like about aluminum radiators is that radiator shops can't fix them.

Yah I have heard of that happening and I am lucky that that didn't happen to me. But like I said there are some very noticeable improvements to the quality of the build of these radiators. I am hopeful that this one will last me a very long time.

Yah I would see how that would be frustrating to have a radiator shop not be able to fix it. But I am sure is is equally frustrating to find a radiator shop that is still open. I live outside of Atlanta and don't know of one anywhere near hear. If it is a small repair, then maybe a fab shop capable of welding aluminum could tackle the repair.

 

[gradon]

I forgot to update last month: I was tired of the leaky Champion and sent it back to them on the west coast($60) and they sent me the replacement. Customer service was awesome. Fingers crossed that it won't fail in <1 year like the last one.

 

[FlexdXJ]

Two years later the CSF is still working like a champ for me.

 

[Redsnake]

My leaking Champion 2-row is sitting beside my house in the scrap pile... I had a 3-Row Champion that lasted a couple weeks before leaking, then was replaced w/a 2-Row Champion (since the 3-rows weren't available) and that lasted about 6 months... I contacted Champion and was told that I would have to send back the 2-row for examination and then they'd determine how to do the exchange... OR I could just pay for a new one, ship the old one back and then wait on them to determine what to do. I just cut my loses and will NEVER use anything related to Champion again.

I'm currently running a FF Dynamics 2-Core Aluminum Radiator and it's been going for ~ 6 months w/no leaks. Cooling is really good, the way this one is put together is much better than the Champion radiators I had (better welds, drain, construction all around) and it was ~ the same price as the Champion units. So far so good... (knock on wood). The only issue I've had w/the FFD unit is the radiator cap. It's smaller than OE and when it started leaking I had a hard time finding a replacement. Figured out it's the same as the radiator caps that came on OE Ford Mustang V6's.

 

[dieselenthusiast]

I'm currently running a FF Dynamics 2-Core Aluminum Radiator and it's been going for ~ 6 months w/no leaks. Cooling is really good, the way this one is put together is much better than the Champion radiators I had (better welds, drain, construction all around) and it was ~ the same price as the Champion units. So far so good... (knock on wood).

I've had the FF Dynamics for approximately 1.5 years. So far, no problems.

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

Update on my Champion:

It's been two years and no leaks/everything working.

This seems crazy, but I'm been tooling around in the 95 degree weather with only one stock e-fan and my temp gauge doesn't budge from the ~190 mark (which is I think what t-stat I have, I can't remember for sure).

The only other cooling "upgrade" on the system is that my a/c is shot, so no a/c running (I guess that's an "upgrade" lol).

I don't plan on leaving just the one stock e-fan in place, but it's working so well that it keeps getting bumped down on the list of priorities. My number one priority right now is getting the a/c fixed! :shiver:

 

[YFZsandrider]

where are you guys buying these FFD radiators, and at how much??

 

[dieselenthusiast]

where are you guys buying these FFD radiators, and at how much??

I got mine from the e-bay seller. Some buy them factory direct. If you go to e-bay, you will see hm. I don't remember the cost.

 

[Redsnake]

where are you guys buying these FFD radiators, and at how much??

Ordered mine direct f/ FFD... don't remember exact price, but was under $200 I believe... hovered around that price.

http://ffdynamics.com/

 

[wsxjeep]

Installed a 3 row CSF several years ago & a B & M trans. cooler. Using OE fans coolant temperatures have stayed consistently below 200 while on the highway, temps normally are around ~195 deg F.

Off-road temps have stayed under 210 deg. F.

After looking at various ~$500.00 all aluminum radiators, Finally decided against it. The more expensive all alums are designed with people in mind who race, have high flow pumps, extreme off-road, etc. may sometimes require higher cooling efficiency from an hd all aluminum rad. the tubing and core thickness is usually a little larger (you can order them with various configurations, larger to smaller tubes, etc.) ... If your coolant is flowing faster than normal it may require a high efficiency rad to lower the coolant temperature faster.

There are Champion all alum rads, around the same price. But no specific data about their efficiency, reliability, etc.

OEM HD radiators used in towing packages used alum. cores, some may have been all alum. and were two cores instead of one.

All alum. rads can be more difficult to repair, have been known to fail from time to time ... not much data available concerning the degree of cooling efficiency and reliability when compared to an all - metal 2 and 3 core.

 

[coverturtle]

Thanks, guys, for all the tips. For me, copper is the way to go. Too many ways for aluminum to corrode and copper seems more widely used. Hope you all are paying attention to details. I don't think all those radiators "leaked by themselves". Good job, though, pushing for better quality. atriot:

 

[Ben824]

Well I have to say I was defeated by Champion. Too many leaky radiators that me and the company called it a truce and they said I could send them my radiator back for a $145 refund. I found another brand on ebay very similar and ordered it. I have sent the Champion back and waiting on my refund. The new off brand is working great so far and the dual factory fan setup I made that turns the lead oem fan into a two speed fan run by a BMW two temp switch is working perfectly. Runs at 210 always. We will see how it handles the extreme Southern summer temps but right now its perfect. And with this radiator I have way better heat inside the cab. Hopefully this one will hold for a few years. If not, I will be going back to the CSF radiator as it worked well for me for 7 years before leaking.

I will say when the Champions were't leaking, they did their job perfectly. Sad to see their quality of craftsmanship be so poor.

 

[Einulfr]

I ordered a Champion 3-row radiator direct from them a few years ago and it was a huge piece of shit; it looked exactly like Ben824's old one if not worse.

- Unfinished aluminum that looked like ass
- Horrible, boogery welds
- The upper hose opening was more oval than round
- It was kind of bent/warped looking (box was completely fine upon arrival)
- The trans cooler fittings were cheap aluminum, bent easily and the threads stripped easily
- Welded fittings weren't exactly perpendicular to the radiator
- Couldn't fit the lower trans cooler fitting because it would bottom out on the air intake support. I should not have to modify my vehicle to make a replacement part fit, I'm sorry. And now I have to bypass the heat exchanger? Good thing I have an aux trans cooler.
- Couldn't put the cap on because the neck was jammed so close to the support bracket that the nubs would hit
- Probably leaked like a two dollar whore but I'll never know because it was such a POS I never got it installed fully
- E-mailed them about a replacement/refund several times and they never replied
- **** Champion forever. I can understand QC dropping the ball or whatever, it happens to all companies...but don't ****ing ignore me when I inquire about a return/refund. Assholes.
- **** aluminum, it's overrated. There's guys that live in desert climates that do just fine with stock cooling.

Bought a CSF 3-row instead and it fit like a glove. Temp sits rock-solid around 207; I have Dirtbound's e-fan setup and LeBaron hood vents with a standard 195 thermostat. With A/C on in the summer it locks in at 210 exactly.

Unfortunately I didn't get many pics of the monstrosity because I was too pissed off.

You can kind of see the waviness; it's like the frame was a touch small for the core

How the hell am I supposed to turn this clockwise to seal?

Ahhhh much better.