• Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

Bolt grade question

wacho4

NAXJA Forum User
Does anybody know how strong metric class 8.8 is in relation to standard bolt grades? I called up a local mechanic and the guy I talked to didn't know, but when he asked the other people there he got 2 different answers. One said somewhere between standard grades 5 and 8, and the other said about the same as standard grade 5.
Also does anyone know the grade the factory would use for a XJ rear hitch? I used Metric Grade 8.8 when installing my hitch but now I worry that it's not strong enough, especcialy since I probally have and will again overload the hitch. I also plan to install a skid plate and rear bumper using these bolts as well as kind of plating the frame in that area with 3/16" steel. Is 8.8 gonna be strong enough?
 
wacho4 said:
Does anybody know how strong metric class 8.8 is in relation to standard bolt grades? I called up a local mechanic and the guy I talked to didn't know, but when he asked the other people there he got 2 different answers. One said somewhere between standard grades 5 and 8, and the other said about the same as standard grade 5.
Also does anyone know the grade the factory would use for a XJ rear hitch? I used Metric Grade 8.8 when installing my hitch but now I worry that it's not strong enough, especcialy since I probally have and will again overload the hitch. I also plan to install a skid plate and rear bumper using these bolts as well as kind of plating the frame in that area with 3/16" steel. Is 8.8 gonna be strong enough?

I'm pretty sure 8.8 is about the same as a grade 5 bolt. I think 10.? is ruffly a grade 8.

As for your question on bolt strenght, I think 8.8 would work fine.
 
I am not sure in relation, but I would guess grade 5 or possibly a little below... I know I have some of those that stripped out pretty easily doing a transfer case drop, but when I put the stock bolts back in, they held up to much more torque... For skid plates and such they should be fine, but for a hitch,,,, IMO I would go with something stronger...
 
I think 10.9 is harder than a Grade 8. 8.8 is about a Grade 5
Stainless A2 I'm not sure... anyone?
 
An 8.8 carbon steel bolt is rated at max tensile str. 830 megapascal. 1 megapascal = 145.04 psi. 830 MPa = 120383 psi. grade 5 SAE is 120000 psi MTS. hope this helps
 
Stay with the 8.8 for the hitch. Hitches see a lot of shock loads and you dont want the stronger but less ductile (more brittle) 10.9. Get a quality bolt, dont go to home depot and get the cheapest china made bolt available. Go to an industrial supply store or get them at a salvage yard from an OEM application.

John
 
thanks cosmo and eveyone else. Asked the parts departments of 2 local dealers and both said oem hitch bolts were stronger but were not sure how much. Finally thouhgt to just look at an xj with the stock Mopar hitch. Duh!! Should have thouhgt of that first. Though they were scraped up and rusty it looked like they had a 10.9 or maybe 10.8 stamped on them.
So, I just found out a friend with a stock hitch on a cherokee is getting rid of his because it's in the way of his new bumper. so I found some almost new ones.
BTW, the 8.8 bolts I had on there were bought at a agricultural/industrial supply place.
 
nosigma said:
Stay with the 8.8 for the hitch. Hitches see a lot of shock loads and you dont want the stronger but less ductile (more brittle) 10.9. Get a quality bolt, dont go to home depot and get the cheapest china made bolt available. Go to an industrial supply store or get them at a salvage yard from an OEM application.

John


Thats bad information! A 10.9 bolt has greater shear strenght than an identical 8.8 bolt.

Also, I agree about getting AMERICAN made products, but you will have a hard time finding US made fasteners even at an nut and bolt shop.
 
tompatjr said:
Thats bad information! A 10.9 bolt has greater shear strenght than an identical 8.8 bolt.
no, he has a valid point. ever break off a small punch? you can't look at it as just sheer strength. the bolts are subjected to much more than the weight of the trailer every time you pull out and accelerate. a lower grade bolt will stretch a tiny amount, and stretch back because it is under tension. a grade too high for the shock load will stretch like the lower grade bolt will, but it will not stretch back all the way because it is a harder, less resilient material. it will stretch and might eventually snap. sure, the bolt of the higher grade is stronger by breaking point, but the work and shock loads are different for each grade per given size. kind of like a tow strap. if it has a breaking point of 10,000 lbs, you can't routinely use it at around 9000 lbs. and expect it to hold up. the actual intended maximum load is very different from the break strength. to give an obtuse example; ideally speaking for this scenerio, bolts for this application would be twice as big and a lot lower grade then they are now, but that would be overkill. the only problem with a lower grade bolt per given size is that the more stretch it has, the more susceptible it is to vibration. DC already did the work in deciding what the proper bolt type for that hitch bolts on. they designed it.
 
xuv-this said:
no, he has a valid point. ever break off a small punch? you can't look at it as just sheer strength. the bolts are subjected to much more than the weight of the trailer every time you pull out and accelerate. a lower grade bolt will stretch a tiny amount, and stretch back because it is under tension. a grade too high for the shock load will stretch like the lower grade bolt will, but it will not stretch back all the way because it is a harder, less resilient material. it will stretch and might eventually snap. sure, the bolt of the higher grade is stronger by breaking point, but the work and shock loads are different for each grade per given size. kind of like a tow strap. if it has a breaking point of 10,000 lbs, you can't routinely use it at around 9000 lbs. and expect it to hold up. the actual intended maximum load is very different from the break strength. to give an obtuse example; ideally speaking for this scenerio, bolts for this application would be twice as big and a lot lower grade then they are now, but that would be overkill. the only problem with a lower grade bolt per given size is that the more stretch it has, the more susceptible it is to vibration. DC already did the work in deciding what the proper bolt type for that hitch bolts on. they designed it.


You are also posting bad information! I would like to see your source!

A punch is not a bolt, and a nylon strap is not a bolt...bad examples.

I am in no way a expert about bolts or really anything else for that matter. But I can read and have done so, a little, about bolts.

Basically from what I have read about bolts, is this. You can use a higher grade bolt in an application that calls for a lower grade bolt, but not the opposite.

A example of (tension) a bolt being pulled apart, like you are saying a hitch would do, would be a connecting rod. They use a very high grade bolt for those, most likely better, much better, than a grade 8.
 
tompatjr said:
, I agree about getting AMERICAN made products, but you will have a hard time finding US made fasteners even at an nut and bolt shop.

Yes, that was another problem; metric seems to be even worse.




xuv-this said:
DC already did the work in deciding what the proper bolt type for that hitch bolts on. they designed it.

yeah called up a dealer, they have 'em but they want over 4 bucks A BOLT !!!!!!
times 10 bolts = $40 for bolts just to fasten a hitch. WOW!
 
4 bucks for a bolt isn't too bad. At BORG/Lowes/Ace you'll still pay $2.50-$3 for a SAE Grade 8 and you wont even find Metric 10.9's there. Metric 8.8 is equal to an SAE Grade 5.

So much confusion about bolts and grades the last few days. The chart the guy posted to elgin bolts or wherever is a must look at for anyone who is confused about grades and strength.

Also, buying from a dealer doesn't mean the part/bolt is made in the US. MOPAR buys from China too!!!
 
Yeah i guess you're right, luckily I found the factory mopar bolts for free(still almost new looking too).

Thanks again guys; rstarch, I too printed out that chart for reference, it's great.
 
tompatjr said:
You are also posting bad information! I would like to see your source!

A punch is not a bolt, and a nylon strap is not a bolt...bad examples.

I am in no way a expert about bolts or really anything else for that matter. But I can read and have done so, a little, about bolts.

Basically from what I have read about bolts, is this. You can use a higher grade bolt in an application that calls for a lower grade bolt, but not the opposite.

A example of (tension) a bolt being pulled apart, like you are saying a hitch would do, would be a connecting rod. They use a very high grade bolt for those, most likely better, much better, than a grade 8.

The problem here is that you're both largely right.

While a "stronger" bolt (higher SAE number or ISO property class) will handle more loads, and can be preloaded more, it should also be borne in mind that as steel gets harder, it gets more brittle. Don't forget, also, that shear strength is determined by the MINOR diameter of the bolt (at the thread root,) rather than the major diameter or the nominal diameter, unless the shear load is borne by the unthreaded shank of the bolt (in which case, the shear cross-section area is determined by the actual shank measurement, ultimately. Use ~75% of the UTS of the bolt to determine shear strength - the only way to get a more accurate number is to test to failure.)

However, the point on ductility/brittleness can and should be taken into consideration. Even when preloaded below the elastic limit, a bolt that is going to take more shear loads than tensile should not, in fact, be hardened to the point of becoming brittle - like on a trailer hitch. Most of the loads applied, after installation, are going to be in shear - and are going to be 'shock loads' as well. An SAE 8 or ISO 10.9 bolt is going to fail under such loads before an SAE 5 or ISO 8.8 will, because "hard" ~= "brittle."

Given a choice for trailer hitch bolts (I usually am...) I'll select 300-series CRES ("stainless") hardware wherever possible. CRES is heat-treated, generally, to what would be SAE 6 specifications (or ISO 9.8,) so it retains useful ductility - but also has the advantage of being resistant to corrosion. Stress failures - whether tensile, compressive, or shear - will begin at a corrosion pit - it's like having a dotted line that says "tear here." In some cases, silicon bronze and some of the more exotic bronzes can be stress hardened to an equivalent of SAE 5/6 ISO 8.8/9.8, and are actually more resistant to corrosion than CRES. However, CRES is usually easier to find.

Connecting rod bolts are a different animal entirely. They are under a constant cyclic tension load (there is no load on the bolt when the piston is going up, and very little when the piston is on the power stroke,) and the greatest load on the conrod bolt is when the piston is going downward on the intake stroke (due to pulling on the big end cap, and suction overtop the piston.) You won't find specs useful for conrod bolts anywhere on the SAE grade chart - I believe they carry an ASTM number. However, careful attention has been paid to the alloys used and the heat-treatment processes that have been designed for these bolts, and you just can't compare them to anything else. Ditto the nuts used on them - that's got a lot to do with why so many conrod bolts use a non-standard thread (11/32"-32, I think.)

If you'd like to know more on the subject, I highly suggest you go to your local bookshop and look for Carroll Smith's Engineer to Win - considering it goes into the metallurgy of fasteners and properties of materials in relative depth, but sticks largely to layman's terms. It would also be instructive to get hold of a copy of Machinery's Handbook[/I] - anything after the 20th Edition should be fairly detailed on both SAE Grades and ISO Property Classes.

5-90
 
tompatjr said:
A punch is not a bolt, and a nylon strap is not a bolt...bad examples.

I am in no way a expert about bolts or really anything else for that matter. But I can read and have done so, a little, about bolts.

Basically from what I have read about bolts, is this. You can use a higher grade bolt in an application that calls for a lower grade bolt, but not the opposite.

A example of (tension) a bolt being pulled apart, like you are saying a hitch would do, would be a connecting rod. They use a very high grade bolt for those, most likely better, much better, than a grade 8.
but the principle is basically the same. the best way to "upgrade" a bolt is to increase in size, not grade. a better example would be a new holland(ford) square baler. there is a mechanical fuse that consists of 2 balanced plates on a kind of driveshaft. they are bolted together with 4 grade 12 bolts/nuts. if the baling drive becomes jammed(wet hay, weeds), they will shear. i know from personal experience that grade 12 will break off before grade 8, which will take out a worm or cam gear instead. even a simple bolt is more complicated than what meets the eye.
 
A trailer hitch is not really what I'd consider shock loading (try explosives!). The bolts are not there to take the load, but instead they are supposed to clamp the pieces together tightly enough so that friction keeps them from sliding. A higher grade bolt lets you use more torque and get better clamping. You're more likely to see the bolts fail if they are under or over torqued.

Grade 8 bolt are stronger actually tolerant fatique better than a grade 5. A grade 5 bolt will fail at 120,000 psi whereas a grade 8 bolt doesn't even start to yield (permanently stretch) until 130,000 psi. Grade 5 bolts are only case or surface hardened, but grade 8 bolt are hardened all the way through. This is the reason they are consider more brittle.

Honestly, I think grade 5 or grade 8 is fine so long as you use decent quality bolts (ie avoid the junk at home depot) and properly torque them.
 
Back
Top