BART Police Officer Executes Hand-Cuffed Man?!

[PurpleCherokee]

1.)Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
2.)Never point the weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3.)Keep you finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4.)Keep the weapon on safe until you are ready to fire.

So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire. And since 90% of departments carry glocks, the safety thing isn't an issue because glocks don't have a thumb safety.

wow... i was just on the bart getting some sh*t from a bart officer (or I think it was a bart officer) this last saturday (1-3-09).
Wow...
my .02, the cop really screwed up. excessive deadly force.
he's screwed. I've been in the military, done the cop thing, blah blah, the cop screwed up.

"Done the cop thing"? "Blah blah"?

Your nonchalant attitude about police work and drastic over-simplification of a situation that you know very little about tells me that you probably don't know what the h*ll you're talkin about.

 

[8Mud]

Originally Posted by Darky View Post
1.)Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
2.)Never point the weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3.)Keep you finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4.)Keep the weapon on safe until you are ready to fire.
So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire. And since 90% of departments carry glocks, the safety thing isn't an issue because glocks don't have a thumb safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by selarep View Post
wow... i was just on the bart getting some sh*t from a bart officer (or I think it was a bart officer) this last saturday (1-3-09).
Wow...
my .02, the cop really screwed up. excessive deadly force.
he's screwed. I've been in the military, done the cop thing, blah blah, the cop screwed up.
"Done the cop thing"? "Blah blah"?

Your nonchalant attitude about police work and drastic over-simplification of a situation that you know very little about tells me that you probably don't know what the h*ll you're talkin about.


I see Darky as a problem solver.
Selarep as concerned.
Üurple Cherokee as

Whatever actually happened, sure didn't work out well. The obvious solution is to pass a law forbidding camera use during an arrest, make it a felony, shoot them if they resist.

 

[PurpleCherokee]

As compared to less than excessive deadly force?

Is that when you kill them dead?

Lol, exactly.

 

[8Mud]

Deadly force is when you use a deadly weapon (military jargon), excessive deadly force could be when you stick it up against somebodies backbone and pull the trigger.
People forget, the object isn't to kill somebody, it's to stop them from doing whatever they are doing. Even in the military, a serious causality can be worth more than a corpse, it uses up manpower to deal with the casualty.
I guess for law enforcement, a corpse could be more beneficial, as they can't testify against you.
It's not what really happened that counts anyway, it's how you write it up that counts.
People also forget, that typically, gunshot wounds aren't fatal, between 12 and 20% of the time they are, mostly depending on the availability of a decent medical facility. Or in other words, for every one that dies, 5-7 make it after being shot. Though my numbers are old school and your chances are likely better now. Lastly, you mostly only hear about the fatalities, for every fatality you hear about, there were likely 5-7 shot by an LEO somewhere. Maybe 2 dozen beaten severely, another 4 dozen bruised, maybe a hundred left with a chit taste in there mouths and bruised egos.

 

[ZomBrady]

So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire. And since 90% of departments carry glocks, the safety thing isn't an issue because glocks don't have a thumb safety.



"Done the cop thing"? "Blah blah"?

Your nonchalant attitude about police work and drastic over-simplification of a situation that you know very little about tells me that you probably don't know what the h*ll you're talkin about.

I'm just curious, is there a topic that you're not an expert on?

Since you obviously know the complexities of law enforcement and how to tell someone who's a bullshitter about from someone who's not, we shall know differ to you on all matters that might be questionable.

Anyway, your over simplification of how and why a lawman might draw his weapon neglected 'less lethal' weapons and training. Darky's post is just as relevant and true for lawmen as it is for Marines, maybe even more so since lawmen have the option of 'less than lethal'.

And you're uncalled for and brazen punk card that you pulled on selarep totally exposes YOUR own inadequacies in life. I'm sure you know less about the subject than selarep. And no, having a relative in law enforcement does not make YOU an expert on the behavior and protocols of lawmen and law enforcement agencies.


Oh! Yeah! Almost forgot, "NOMINATED".

 

[wolfpackjeeper]

I was wondering about the 90% of departments carrying glocks comment, source? Or did you make it up on the spot to cover the comment about a thumb safety? A lot do sure, but In the 4 places I have lived a glock has yet to be the standard sidearm. Sigs are common, Berettas are increasingly common, and I am starting to see M&P's more around my current residence.

What Darky siad is exactly right, but you intentionally made it seem like 4 separate steps that no one in their right mind would use. These were the same steps the Sheriffs office in my home town taught, and they are usually employed in a fluid motion.

 

[Boatwrench]

Or did you make it up on the spot to cover the comment about a thumb safety?

87% of statistics are made up on the spot. It's true, I read it in a Dilbert strip.

 

[Darky]

Purple:Marines is capitalized.
Finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire isn't even a Marine rule, that came from civilian law enforcement. A kid was shot by a sheriff in Maricopa (I'm pretty sure) county AZ because he had his finger on the trigger when he pushed the kid against the car. Studies were done and there is no delay between first shot fired with finger already on trigger and first shot fired with finger straight and off the trigger. I believe it was the FBI who did the studies and now that has been implemented nationwide. I don't have the sources at hand as this was passed on to me by Officer John Teachout in Driver's Ed back in HS.

 

[5spd_xj]

Purple:Marines is capitalized.

ah, ya beat me to it :compwork: A close friend of mine is in the Marines, I made the mistake once of typing "marines"...he made a point of correcting me as well heh.

And, overall, I agree with ECKSJAY, I think that you can speculate and make all kinds of possible scenarios, but the truth of the matter is, we need to wait it out and see how the investigation goes. I really hope everything works out for the best...

 

[FlexdXJ]

Looks like Nurple is going for tard of the year 2 years running guys! :roflmao:

 

[ECKSJAY]

Which training academy taught you that? When I was 15 as a Police Explorer Scout learning to shoot pistols, they taught us in Col. Cooper's method...exactly as Darky explained. It sounds to me like your LEO experience comes from Hollywood TV drama shows. I can't speak for every agency or officer, but I've never seen an officer (with whom I was working, anyway) actually put a bead on someone to 'cover' them, nor did I see a finger on the trigger. The muzzle is pointed just off the target and finger off the trigger the entire time. It's a barely measurable amount of time to put finger on trigger and sights on target if necessary.

So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire.

 

[selarep]

Jesus People, relax.
We are all just a big pool of opinions at this point.

And yes, my *oops* on using "excessive" and "deadly force" in the same sentence, as there is no such thing. I should have worded it as unnecessary use of deadly force (from what we can tell at this point).

Purple:
As for what I'm talking about, I'm not an expert in much and I'll be the 1st to admit to it. I have some experience in the matter and I'm given my right to express freely, am I not? I simplified it because I did not want to go into a long ass rant about something that I am, like I said, not an expert on.
All I said was he screwed up and a brief explanation of my little experience.

People... chill.
(but let the bashing on purple continue!)

 

[Darky]

So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire. And since 90% of departments carry glocks, the safety thing isn't an issue because glocks don't have a thumb safety.



"Done the cop thing"? "Blah blah"?

Your nonchalant attitude about police work and drastic over-simplification of a situation that you know very little about tells me that you probably don't know what the h*ll you're talkin about.

P.S. As I was trained, drawing your weapon is the first step of deadly force. Largely due to the fact that you don't draw unless you intend on using it.

 

[Ronbo]

It sounds to me like your LEO experience comes from Hollywood TV drama shows.

TJ Hooker ready to fire !

Situation rising to the level of deadly force!

I'm simply ready to fire !

lol

 

[ECKSJAY]

TJ Hooker ready to fire !

Situation rising to the level of deadly force!

I'm simply ready to fire !

lol

I just woke the baby up from laughing so hard. :clap::clap::clap:

 

[PurpleCherokee]

You don't draw a gun on someone just before you fire. You draw long before you think you'll need to use it (following the force continuum) so it's there WHEN you need to use it. So darky's comment about not drawing unless you plan on using it is completely false. Cops draw their weapons without firing MANY times more than they draw and actually end up firing. That's pretty obvious.

All you guys that seem to get off on picking on people regardless of whether or not they're right or wrong, just because you've decided that you don't like them, and because you've gathered enough other retards that will go along with you, really really REALLY need to get a life and stop acting like a bunch of little boys that feel big from picking on someone via an INTERNET FORUM. End of story, it's ridiculous. Get a life. And I'm not talking to all of you... just some of you

 

[Boatwrench]

Heather Locklear sure was a hottie.

 

[Boatwrench]

Heather Locklear sure was a hottie. So hot deserves a double post.

 

[wolfpackjeeper]

You don't draw a gun on someone just before you fire. You draw long before you think you'll need to use it (following the force continuum) so it's there WHEN you need to use it. So darky's comment about not drawing unless you plan on using it is completely false. Cops draw their weapons without firing MANY times more than they draw and actually end up firing. That's pretty obvious.

Part of the problem is that you are both saying the same thing in a way. Darky is saying that you do not draw your weapon till you are ready to fire, he is not talking about quick drawing or waiting to draw until it is the last possible second. It is more of a mental association, You do not take the weapon out of the holster until you are ready to put holes in something, regardless of if you actually fire. You were mentally set and ready to fire if Necessary. And as soon as possible a cop will place his sidearm back in the holster. This has nothing to do with Marine vs Cop training, everybody trains this way. If you get range instruction it carries over to the technique that you generally do not load the weapon till ready to fire.

The other part of the problem is in the way you are typing your contradiction to his (and to be honest EVERY other shooter who has had any civil or military firearm training, I had USAF training and we train a lot of civilian PDs) comments. You use words like "You draw long before you think you'll need to use it" which seems to imply that you would be walking around with it in your hand, just in case. USUALLY, they will just have one hand on the holster, and possibly unclasp it. For a police officer to draw his weapon it is because he senses an IMMENANT threat. Immenant in this context carries the same weight as the word Immediatly does to an aviator. "Cops draw their weapons without firing MANY times more than they draw and actually end up firing. That's pretty obvious" as a comment you seem to feel validates your point, but from outside your side of the argument just kinda is a "well duh" kind of statement. Of course they do, but it does not really relate to how fast or when he would draw his weapon.

 

[FlexdXJ]

All you guys that seem to get off on picking on people regardless of whether or not they're right or wrong, just because you've decided that you don't like them, and because you've gathered enough other retards that will go along with you, really really REALLY need to get a life and stop acting like a bunch of little boys that feel big from picking on someone via an INTERNET FORUM. End of story, it's ridiculous. Get a life. And I'm not talking to all of you... just some of you

You know maybe if you stop coming up with Jackass comments people won't give you a hard time. You get on here and contradict EVERYONE'S opinions and act like you know more than everyone. maybe you need to really really REALLY get a life. Its hard not to give you hell when you post up responses like this. If you spent more time on the trail instead of on your computer we would REALLY appreciate it!

I'm not talking to everyone..... just you! :conceited