B.Lee Offroad 3-link?

paddlernate said:
Royal, do you not get absurd wheel hop with the TNT radius arms? If not, what do you think your secret is? What is your caster angle btw?
Check this video out, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy:

https://vimeo.com/147398931
Click to expand...
I'd be looking at spring rate, what valving the shocks are and tire pressure before blaming a radius arm design.
 
Serious Offroad said:
I'd be looking at spring rate, what valving the shocks are and tire pressure before blaming a radius arm design.
Click to expand...


Ok, so you need custom coilovers to run radius arms? No thanks. What am I supposed to do, order up a bunch of different high dollar coil springs and Bilsteins, spend hours/ days converting, and cross my fingers?
Lower tire pressure has exacerbated the problem by the way.
The point is, if you want to bolt on and go, this won't get you there.
 
Again, if it was a problem with the design, then there'd be a lot more people complaining about it.....

Usually, wheel hop is directly related to spring rate (coiled or leaf don't matter) and shocks. In the case of leaf springs, the lever arm effect also comes into play (IE, is you have blocks between the axle & spring, it makes the problem worse), which is why blocks in the rear are not a good idea.

In that vid, it looks to me like the tire is unloading not hopping...gets traction, torques against the spring and unloads from not enough weight on it (looses traction), then the spring pushes back, gets more traction, then repeats.....stopping that cycling action is the shocks job, not the radius arm.
 
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If you have specific suggestions about spring rates and valving, I'm all ears. Just to be crystal clear, do you run a radius arm setup? Or do you just sell them?
 
TRCM said:
Again, if it was a problem with the design, then there'd be a lot more people complaining about it.....

Usually, wheel hop is directly related to spring rate (coiled or leaf don't matter) and shocks. In the case of leaf springs, the lever arm effect also comes into play (IE, is you have blocks between the axle & spring, it makes the problem worse), which is why blocks in the rear are not a good idea.

In that vid, it looks to me like the tire is unloading not hopping...gets traction, torques against the spring and unloads from not enough weight on it (looses traction), then the spring pushes back, gets more traction, then repeats.....stopping that cycling action is the shocks job, not the radius arm.
Click to expand...


Or maybe people don't wheel their rigs very hard, or they only do so in bone dry conditions and barely slip a tire, or they don't want to admit they misspent their money. I dunno, but everyone who runs the radius arms in the NW chapter, except for the one I mentioned, has this issue. None of them have "complained" about it on this forum. They either don't wheel that often, or are selling their rigs to build another.

On that same obstacle, we frequently have XJs smoke the tires for minutes on end without so much as a blip in the tire. These are short arms,
mid arms, and 3-links.
 
Serious Offroad said:
Ran my kit on my last rig, my new project will get them as well.

Also put them on my son's old XJ and and will be putting a set on my daughters in the future as well.

Run a firmer shock and a stiffer set of coils to keep your wheels planted.
Click to expand...


I'll try that after I fully test out the caster setting. Thank you for your input. I've said all I intend to here, and don't mean to offend you or anyone else. I just wish I had done something differently.
 
paddlernate, TRCM, Serious Offroad; this has the potential to be a very helpful thread for some of us looking to move away from short arms.
 
I think so too, Bent. Starting with specific shock valving and spring rates, so that you can get it right the first time and know you need them when you decide to purchase a radius arm kit. Unfortunately, "every rig is different", and you'll probably never arrive at a straight answer. I'd love to know the magical spring/ shock combo for those of us with a winch bumper up front...
 
You can run stiffer valved shocks to help the issue. But overall you are fighting the geometry issues associated with a radius arm design.


I'm not in any way stating radius arms can't work well. But they do have their downsides
 
On my current rig I run short arms with drops. It flexes pretty good and on steep climbs I don't have any fear of it unloading, but the rig pops and clanks no matter how I tightened things up. Also the drops do drag on the rocks, I've really only been hung up a couple of time though.

I saw the B.Lee as a simple solution because of the bolt in nature of it and it'll keep my pinion in line. To do this though I'll need to get separately all the springs, shocks and underbelly armor.

Full Traction's kit looks interesting as a almost complete package. Still mostly bolt on and I'd get their belly skid. Four arms still keeping the pinion in line an hopefully less chance of unloading.

I'm not knocking anyone's product or setup just asking for info and this is one of the best places to get it.
 
paddlernate said:
Or maybe people don't wheel their rigs very hard, or they only do so in bone dry conditions and barely slip a tire, or they don't want to admit they misspent their money. I dunno, but everyone who runs the radius arms in the NW chapter, except for the one I mentioned, has this issue. None of them have "complained" about it on this forum. They either don't wheel that often, or are selling their rigs to build another.

On that same obstacle, we frequently have XJs smoke the tires for minutes on end without so much as a blip in the tire. These are short arms,
mid arms, and 3-links.
Click to expand...

Did you buy a complete kit, or did you piece yours together ?

I am talking about the kits, where the spring rates and shocks are already determined for you...not a long arm upgrade. They seem to sell well, and usually, if there is a problem as widespread as you are talking about, the kits would be changed to stop it.

And yes, you can spin tires for minutes, and not have a 'blip', cuz once the axle is in the position it wants to be based on the the torque of the engine, the spring rate of the suspension, and the available traction, it will sit there until something changes. If the tire is already hot from spinning, the chances of a sudden change in traction are nill, so no wheel hop. But change the weight on that tire, or the speed, and you may get wheel hop, or you may move. Lower gearing can compound the issue, as it greatly increases engine torque.

Wheel hop occurs when the torque & available traction overcome the springs ability to hold the tire on the ground. All it takes is a spike in traction, and the spring will compress, then spring back, then when it springs back, the traction spikes up again, so it compresses the spring again, and so on, and so on.....the shock's job is to stop this cycling, or at least slow it down enough for the traction to steady out.

On my old ramcharger, I could induce wheel hop by spinning the tires, but I could also, on the same surface, induce then stop wheel hop by power braking....cuz the torque/suspension/traction factors were constant. When I let off the brakes, the traction changed cuz the truck could move, so the wheel hop would come back if I didn't let off some. Dry conditions were the worst.

I can usually do the same thing with my cherokee. Power braking spins the tires, but spinning the tires without using the brakes usually gives me wheel hop.

I would say a stiffer spring and/or shock is what you need, but specifics would require knowing what you have now, along with the 4 corner weights of your rig.

I don't have the stuff to answer your question specifically like you need, and I don't have a radius arm setup either. I have been looking at them, and am leaning towards a 3 link now, but design problems or not, if you don't have enough spring to keep the tire planted, or enough shock to stop the spring cycling, you will have problems with any suspension design.

The 2 examples I gave above are leaf spring axles, I haven't had any wheel hop issues with the a rear axle coil spring vehicle yet.
 
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https://youtu.be/jHg_h9kp61A
I removed the drivers side upper and moddified the passengers side upper with a new mount and joints running 9/16" bolts. It helped a lot vs the rubicon express radius arms, but it still unloads a little. The plan is to build a new upper link mount on the frame rail and convert it to a true 3 link vs the 1 and a half radius arm I run now.
 
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I'd go HDOR 3 link and not look back. I have yet to see a good 3 link have much to any wheel hop or unpredictable unloading without having to plan your shocks and coils around the radius arms. I liked the beef that I got from my TNT but they got very noisy and made it hard to service my transmission.
 
TNT radius arm work perfectly fine with my 4.5 springs, unless you run big lift springs I think it's fine. No matter what kit you have it will have a draw back or problem
Of some sort.
 
clean4drxj said:
TNT radius arm work perfectly fine with my 4.5 springs, unless you run big lift springs I think it's fine. No matter what kit you have it will have a draw back or problem
Of some sort.
Click to expand...


Your profile says "light wheeling". Please don't muddy the water here. If you only run moderate trails, radius arms work fine and flex well. However, if you want to hammer down and spin the tires, radius arms are far worse than just about every other suspension configuration.

I'm amused my people trying to draw distinctions between the terms axle wrap, wheel hop, and unloading. I'm sure there's some brofessors on here who will chime in with their scientific explanation of the difference, but to me it's pretty much all the same. And let me clarify, the wheel hop/unloading I experience happens every time I generate wheel spin, whether I'm on an incline or not. It happens in deep snow and soft sand, even if pointed downhill.
And I'll also point out that my video shows my brake lights on pretty much the entire time. Feathering the brake does nothing to stop the hop- I feather the brakes to keep my LSDs engaged. Once it starts, the only way to stop it is to fully lift off the gas. This is pretty frustrating, because it happens when you most need to keep your momentum- going uphill, or getting stuck in snow or sand.
 
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