Any Non religious people here?

[Boatwrench]

I see it as predatory. I see it as arriving in time of weakness as a savior. People or "sheep" as Christians like to refer to themselves then associate the act of being rescued with the religion and God credited by the rescuers. Suddenly all is right with the world percieved, and again it is contributed to the god who was suggested. Even if things go wrong, it becomes a game of "he won't give me more than I can handle", "everything happens for a reason" and "we just don't understand God's plan". You really can't lose with those arguments against someone whom is subscribed to the plan.

It really is a one sided game. All you need is someone reaching out for help and you can be there to sell them your brand of Jesus. It's a really sick game in my opinion.

In fact, here in an informal gathering of those who profess not to believe, you are here to "plant a seed" in the hopes that during a moment of weakness one of us will remember, and perhaps wander to the local church seeking answers.

Admittedly some people need help. It would be great if that help didn't come with a hook though.

Well presented. thank you.

 

[tigerchief]

I see it as predatory. I see it as arriving in time of weakness as a savior. People or "sheep" as Christians like to refer to themselves then associate the act of being rescued with the religion and God credited by the rescuers. Suddenly all is right with the world percieved, and again it is contributed to the god who was suggested. Even if things go wrong, it becomes a game of "he won't give me more than I can handle", "everything happens for a reason" and "we just don't understand God's plan". You really can't lose with those arguments against someone whom is subscribed to the plan.

It really is a one sided game. All you need is someone reaching out for help and you can be there to sell them your brand of Jesus. It's a really sick game in my opinion.

In fact, here in an informal gathering of those who profess not to believe, you are here to "plant a seed" in the hopes that during a moment of weakness one of us will remember, and perhaps wander to the local church seeking answers.

Admittedly some people need help. It would be great if that help didn't come with a hook though.

There you go.

Amazing thing about the human animal is that fear is easily exploited, and it overpowers evenly those with horsepower upstairs and those without.

And sometimes it doesn't overpower people over that spectrum.

And it's not even that black and white.

Exploitation is what religion has become. Many have been led to believe (without critical thinking) that the Bible is an Historical text. But it falls far short of that, and hence the "beliefs" are worthless with respect to reality, if the beliefs rely on the "Word".


So with all of the messages here from peeps, to and fro, many with beliefs and others with sidereals beliefs, the basic problem is with "belief". More specifically: why will I blow apart if my belief is "disproved"?

Again, fear. Fear of the unknown is as real to the Atheist as to the blind follower of a sect, be it Catholic, Muslim, Judaism, etc.

And make no mistake, those latter are sects by the very definition of the word, no matter your spackling over of what you WANT to characterize them as being, social acceptance not-with-standing.

So exactly: what is religion, as we NOW know it, good for?

If it leads to blind belief, and requires followers, then you are someone's lunch.

If you are seeking to understand what this is all about, best get going on finding out what you can do to start seeing what's there, and not blindly follow what someone else tells you.

This latter is NOT incompatible with current religion: they can give you some clues (there is a lot of real knowledge buried in there amongst the lies), but you have to get to a point of discerning what is a lie and what is not.

That takes work, though.

Unless you DO that work, you're just a yapping dog in your Owner's backyard. He's got you chained, and you're happy overall cuz he feeds you scraps once in a while that allays your fear.

 

[JNickel101]

Not arguing for its own sake. It is a valid question.

Instead of twisting the question into something it's not, just don't answer it.

x2, stop manipulating the question to make it more answerable in your viewpoint. bigalpha asked a question, and instead of answering it, you made an assumption and changed the statement. (to Darky and Revrok)

There is no one on this planet (who is not a monster) that believes that burning widows is a moral act. There were obviously Hindus in William Carey's time who felt the same way because the laws were changed. The question is not valid, it is ludicrous. Your point about stoning actually proves the moral code issue. The punishment differs, but the morality issue in this case is adultery, not the punishment. Those same cultures also do not lock people up in overcrowded prisons which are more training grounds for criminal behavior than places of rehabilitation. Which is more insane? I don't agree with either.

Old Testament God once claimed it acceptable to perform ritualistic sacrifices. What about asking Abraham to kill Isaac? Pretty monsterous if you ask me....but AT THE TIME, it was considered acceptable.

....just like at a time in this particular society, it is acceptable for the widow to be killed.....

As for prisons, I agree. Lets put them all on a tiny little island out in the middle of the Pacific and let them fend for themselves. Forever. Can't function like a productive member of society? Ok....then society says "bye bye" to you!

Punishments in this country are not harsh enough. That's why crime continues to exist. People know that the punishment doesn't fit the crime - there's no fear. If we had a completely armed society, things like the VA Tech shooting wouldn't have happened. Bet people would think twice about opening fire if they knew everyone else was "packing heat". You wouldn't go in and rob a bank if you knew all of the tellers were carrying loaded handguns/shotguns.....would you?

 

[Darky]

So, let's see. Because of their belief, a missionary goes to a poor thrid world country, sees the need for a hospital, seeks funding (largely through churches stateside), and starts a small clinic. Over time he's able to grow it a little and he's able to hire/find volunteer doctors to rotate through and provide care to the people. The people ask why he was driven to do this, he explains that he feels called by God to help. They ask more about God, he explains and they accept. Where is the problem? Is believing in a higher power and telling people about it going to harm them? If I share with 50 people and it makes sense to 10, do I now have an army of 10 to go and take over the world? Can I feed them poison Kool Aid? Seriously, why are people so hostile towards the idea of sharing something that has made an impact in my life and made a difference, something that helps in an effort to provide the same benefits to others?
Let's even leave out the Heaven and Hell aspect, knowing God has been beneficial to me in this life, why wouldn't I want to share that? If someone asks me what they should buy for 4-wheeling, I'll probably recommend Jeep, and most specifically the Cherokee for a good cheap foundation. Can you wheel a Tracker? Yeah, I did for a while, but the Jeep makes trails so much easier and opens up a lot of places I couldn't go before without rolling.

goodburbon, I am here for the same reason that atheists are in threads about religion, to defend my view and attempt to clear up misconceptions. If you saw a thread that was attacking your views and calling it all evil and foolish, weak-minded, good for nothing but manipulation and brainwashing, would you sit idly by? No, you know you wouldn't. You'd want to jump in and correct that. That's the thing is others here say they left the church (be it Mormon, Christian, Catholic, etc) because of the hypocrisy of the people. News flash, people in general are hypocrites, and you can see it even here. By saying it pisses you off when people try to share their religious views with you or it angers you when religious types say that non-believers are fools, and then turning around and calling religious people mindless, fools, you all are doing the same thing you complain about us doing.

 

[FlexdXJ]

Wow, This thread is a prime Example of why I NEVER start a thread dealing with Religion or Politics. They end up turning into a Moral pissing match, Believe what you want and Wheel Your Jeep! Sorry Guys, These threads just end up ticking me off.

 

[bigalpha]

As for prisons, I agree. Lets put them all on a tiny little island out in the middle of the Pacific and let them fend for themselves. Forever. Can't function like a productive member of society? Ok....then society says "bye bye" to you!

Australia? :dunno:

 

[JNickel101]

So, let's see. Because of their belief, a missionary goes to a poor thrid world country, sees the need for a hospital, seeks funding (largely through churches stateside), and starts a small clinic. Over time he's able to grow it a little and he's able to hire/find volunteer doctors to rotate through and provide care to the people. The people ask why he was driven to do this, he explains that he feels called by God to help. They ask more about God, he explains and they accept. Where is the problem? Is believing in a higher power and telling people about it going to harm them? If I share with 50 people and it makes sense to 10, do I now have an army of 10 to go and take over the world? Can I feed them poison Kool Aid? Seriously, why are people so hostile towards the idea of sharing something that has made an impact in my life and made a difference, something that helps in an effort to provide the same benefits to others?
Let's even leave out the Heaven and Hell aspect, knowing God has been beneficial to me in this life, why wouldn't I want to share that? If someone asks me what they should buy for 4-wheeling, I'll probably recommend Jeep, and most specifically the Cherokee for a good cheap foundation. Can you wheel a Tracker? Yeah, I did for a while, but the Jeep makes trails so much easier and opens up a lot of places I couldn't go before without rolling.

goodburbon, I am here for the same reason that atheists are in threads about religion, to defend my view and attempt to clear up misconceptions. If you saw a thread that was attacking your views and calling it all evil and foolish, weak-minded, good for nothing but manipulation and brainwashing, would you sit idly by? No, you know you wouldn't. You'd want to jump in and correct that. That's the thing is others here say they left the church (be it Mormon, Christian, Catholic, etc) because of the hypocrisy of the people. News flash, people in general are hypocrites, and you can see it even here. By saying it pisses you off when people try to share their religious views with you or it angers you when religious types say that non-believers are fools, and then turning around and calling religious people mindless, fools, you all are doing the same thing you complain about us doing.

Just one question from this - how is being non-religious, hypocritical?

People created religion to suit a particular need in their society.

 

[goodburbon]

I don't drop into religious threads and criticize people for expressing their beliefs. Nor do I drop in to try and prove that their beliefs about me the non-believer are incorrect. I have even stood up and defended the right of the believers to express themselves without interruption of the non believers.

I maintain, that in this thread, which was originally for non believers, I am free to express that I think you're all loons. When a child has an imaginary friend parents hope it's a stage and that it goes away. When an adult has an imaginary friend they gather in groups, worship it, write books about it, and feel compelled to convince other people that it's real and that they should worship it too. If you honestly step back, from a non believers standpoint it's just sillyness. Of course the sillyness only takes it so far, because the believers are compelled to spread the word. The sillyness then becomes a threat to peace because the believers won't let it go, or accept that what they believe in is completely ridiculous.

Allow me to sum it up.
You believe in a god who is all knowing, all powerful, and good.
You believe this god created you in his image
you believe that god loves you.
You believe that god, 2000 years ago, made himself into man, dropped himself into a woman, was born grew up , then sacrificed himself to forgive you for your sins while begging himself to forgive those who killed him.

This god is responsible for the creation of every human, and knowing all he knows what they will do when created. Somehow you have freedom of choice even though he knows you and what choice he has created you to make. So Jeffrey Dahmer was created by god, and killed people like god knew he would. Then that God sees fit to send that man that he created insane to hell for eternity for a lifetime of sin. This god either allows evil, or it is not in his power to stop it, didn't know it was going to happen, or the more likely explanation is that it just doesn't exist.

You can continue to say that your missions aren't recruiting centers, but they are. You can continue to claim that it harms no one, but it most certainly does.
Religion is a tool, and in the hands of those who have an agenda it is a very dangerous tool. Look at Northern Ireland, look at the middle east, look at any religion anywhere and you will see that while its people can do good, there are those who abuse it to get something accomplished. Whether that something is a pastor driving a Bentley or a young man blowing himself up to kill the infidel, neither of these things is "good".

 

[JeepFreak21]

A little late to the party, but...

Billy

 

[Darky]

Ok, point taken, but I ask you to explain how the evil that man commits would change if there was no religion period. Would the Arabs no longer hate the Israelis? Would anti-abortion whackos not blow up abortion clinics? Would people who are prone to swindle their fellow man no longer swindle? Or would all of them find other reasons and other means to perpetuate the hate/greed in their own hearts? How does giving someone some hope that there is more than just this life harm them? All of your point regarding this point not towards the belief in God being bad, but the fact that we have evil men in this world being bad.
To answer your statement about why God allows people like Jeffrey Dahmer, we are 6000 yrs down the path of sin and decay. When the world was created it was perfect, however, Adam and Eve had free will. Eve was deceived and Adam chose to follow her. That was when sin entered the world, bringing with it decay. With that decay, genes deteriorate, leading to higher instances of genetic problems. And today just like in Jesus' day, demon possession or influence is still occurring. Jesus came across a man in the Gaderenes (not sure on the actual spelling) who was possessed by Legion, ie legions of demons.

The threat to peace comes from, again, the evil in man. If there were no religion, people would fight over other things. Nowhere in Christianity are we told to fight against or kill those who disagree. So, if this thread was just for non-believers, and we had stayed out, what would you be discussing? Just discussing how stupid believers are? Not very peaceful, getting together for the sole purpose of mocking others who believe differently. I mean seriously, what does an atheist support group gather and discuss? And who would start a thread in what is a group primarily consisting of atheists and non-believers asking are there any non-believers? If you've been around for any time, you know the answer is resoundingly yes! I thank you for your support of my right and ability to speak about my own belief, but I go back to questioning the intent of this thread. If people are discussing religion, it generally doesn't devolve into a let's bash atheist thread, nor do atheists generally leave it alone. They'll come in and the thread always ends up exactly like this one.

JNickel: Maybe you misread my point. Being non-religious isn't in and of itself hypocritical, just like being religious doesn't make one a hypocrite. Anyone is capable of behaving hypocritically. Complaining of believers interfering in your non-believer thread while non-believers have been in every thread about religion is hypocritical. Calling Christians weak-minded idiots while complaining about Christians calling you immoral and sinful is rather hypocritical.

 

[Boatwrench]

Seriously, why are people so hostile towards the idea of sharing something that has made an impact in my life and made a difference, something that helps in an effort to provide the same benefits to others?

Like ?
It has made an impact in all our lives, made a difference in the way we maintain, modify or wheel and if it didn't why would we be here? But let's not share that because if we do, well we'll be labeled a zealot, a sheeple, a folower to the Toyota wheelers, Model A restorers or the Honda racers.

 

[goodburbon]

Ok, point taken, but I ask you to explain how the evil that man commits would change if there was no religion period. Would the Arabs no longer hate the Israelis? Would anti-abortion whackos not blow up abortion clinics? Would people who are prone to swindle their fellow man no longer swindle? Or would all of them find other reasons and other means to perpetuate the hate/greed in their own hearts? How does giving someone some hope that there is more than just this life harm them?

I submit to you that the Israelis would not have continued to return to the land that was promised to them by their god, perhaps settling where they were and being happy about it. I submit that anti abortion wacko's wouldn't be so fanatical, since what they are doing is not in the name of God, but is rather a question of which direction morality should evolve in. I submit that People who swindle do so regardless of religion, greedy people are greedy regardless of religion. Believing in an afterlife may not be harmful.

I have had spiritual experiences, but I do not preach them to you as universal truths. I am also not opposed to the existence of a god. I am opposed to using a persons insecurity in their own existence as a tool to guide them in a direction that another man sees fit, which is the ultimate goal of all organized religion.

 

[rocknxj]

I stumbled upon this thread late. Interesting topic and replies.

I don't belong to any organized religion, but I have faith that a closed heart can't imagine.

If you had absolute proof that God existed, you wouldn't have the freedom (free will) to make up your own mind whether to believe or not. It is that act of believing in the intangible that makes us learn, practice, and act (religion?) to be a better person, and to be better to those around us.

I believe God gave the ultimate sacrifice for us. Ignoring that would be the ultimate insult. There is power in giving up something from yourself for others.

 

[rocknxj]

Wow, This thread is a prime Example of why I NEVER start a thread dealing with Religion or Politics. They end up turning into a Moral pissing match, Believe what you want and Wheel Your Jeep! Sorry Guys, These threads just end up ticking me off.

Despite my above post, I agree with you 100%. The original question for this post should have been limited to a Yes or No, but we like to justify our positions, don't we?

A poll would have worked better, but would not have given us a chance to posit our beliefs.

 

[JNickel101]

It makes me sad to think that the only reason some people are moral and good are because they fear the ramifications of the "God" they believe in....to feel the need to be rewarded for good behavior, instead of just doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

Religion overall lacks integrity - doing the right thing, even when no one (God especially) is watching.

 

[AIbandit]

It makes me sad to think that the only reason some people are moral and good are because they fear the ramifications of the "God" they believe in....to feel the need to be rewarded for good behavior, instead of just doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

Religion overall lacks integrity - doing the right thing, even when no one (God especially) is watching.

Agreed but some religion does make this world a better place by controlling those people through fear or greed.

So believe in god as long as it keeps you from stealing my hubcaps.

 

[Boatwrench]

It makes me sad to think that the only reason some people are moral and good are because they fear the ramifications of the "God" they believe in....to feel the need to be rewarded for good behavior, instead of just doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

Religion overall lacks integrity - doing the right thing, even when no one (God especially) is watching.

I'm kinda wondering if morality is a chicken or egg type of unsolvable question. Are we moral because along time ago, before Christianity, before the Jewish religion, before documented or written history, religion was established? Or was religion established because we were already moral?

 

[hubs97xj]

Religion wasn't necessary until we began living in increasingly larger communities.

 

[muduck18]

Religion wasn't necessary until we began living in increasingly larger communities.

Um What?

Shoot did I open my mouth again?

 

[hubs97xj]

Morals are just a code of conduct and behavior deemed acceptable by a group. There is no universally accepted morality. Just like the religion you subscribe too, the morals you are raised with depend on where you born, and to what culture. Describing morality and Christianity as chicken and egg is missing the point.