Any Non religious people here?

goodburbon said:
I submit to you that the Israelis would not have continued to return to the land that was promised to them by their god, perhaps settling where they were and being happy about it. I submit that anti abortion wacko's wouldn't be so fanatical, since what they are doing is not in the name of God, but is rather a question of which direction morality should evolve in. I submit that People who swindle do so regardless of religion, greedy people are greedy regardless of religion. Believing in an afterlife may not be harmful.

I have had spiritual experiences, but I do not preach them to you as universal truths. I am also not opposed to the existence of a god. I am opposed to using a persons insecurity in their own existence as a tool to guide them in a direction that another man sees fit, which is the ultimate goal of all organized religion.
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Or the Israelis may have returned to that land because it was theirs up until 1700 or so yrs ago, and the UN (whom I doubt was influenced by whether or not God gave them that land) decided in 1948 that this ethnic group who had been nearly eliminated over the years deserved a safe haven, a country of their own. Anti abortion whackos, I think would be just as whacko. Like I said, in Christianity we aren't called to kill. We are called to submit to the law of the land, and the law of the land states that we shouldn't be blowing people up. :)
JNickel101 said:
It makes me sad to think that the only reason some people are moral and good are because they fear the ramifications of the "God" they believe in....to feel the need to be rewarded for good behavior, instead of just doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

Religion overall lacks integrity - doing the right thing, even when no one (God especially) is watching.
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I find it sad that you actually believe people only act right because of religion. Aren't one of the ones stating how you don't need religion to act right? Sounding a little "holier than thou", eh? ;)
 
JNickel101 said:
x2, stop manipulating the question to make it more answerable in your viewpoint. bigalpha asked a question, and instead of answering it, you made an assumption and changed the statement. (to Darky and Revrok)

Old Testament God once claimed it acceptable to perform ritualistic sacrifices. What about asking Abraham to kill Isaac? Pretty monsterous if you ask me....but AT THE TIME, it was considered acceptable.

....just like at a time in this particular society, it is acceptable for the widow to be killed.....
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I am not trying to twist the question... it is simply argumentative in my opinion, not making a point that has any relevance to the discussion and I have answered it in the way I felt was appropriate. I am sure we can agree to disagree if that is your choice.

Everybody seems to forget that God interrupted the sacrifice precisely to show how He was different from the gods of the time. It was an admittedly harsh test of one man's faith.

At any rate... I am sure that we would all get along just great on the trail... you guys are all welcome at my fire and as my spotter anytime, and that is what this site is really all about. I really apologize for getting as caught up in this discussion as I did and for any way I may have offended. I genuinely enjoy the debate and so understand that there was sincerely no rancor or intent on my part if I offended someone. I notice our OP never participated... he must be sitting back laughing at what he started! :cheers:
 
I'll stick up for REVROK. The way the question was presented was similair to your wife asking whether these pants make her a$$ look big, either answer would cause grief.

Here's "The Question" from BigAlpha: "What if the widow goes into the marriage knowing she'd be burned alive if and when her husband died?"

and Darky's response: "In a society where the widow gets burned alive when the man dies, she likely doesn't have much choice in whether or not she gets married."

A perfectly legitimate answer, but here is mine: If she does go into a marriage willing, knowing fully the potential outcome if her husband preceeds her in death, she's stupid. The key is willing. Many cultures women are nothing more than servants or property, hence the custom of the dowry.
 
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A gentlemen never discusses sex, politics, or religion in polite company. :nono:

Its lucky we are neither gentlemen, or polite. :cheers:
 
Boatwrench said:
Interesting. Oh I wasn't comparing Chritianity and morals to chicken and egg quandry, I stated BEFORE Christianity and Jewish religions, and even Greek & Sumaritan gods.
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I was raised in a Christian family, so I default to that, but yeah, it would precede any organized faith out of necessity, I would think.
 
I was raised Methodist. If I had to categorize, I'd say that I'm agnostic.

There are times though -- mostly when I'm outdoors -- that I feel overwhelmed with happiness and wonder if there really is something bigger than us. My thoughts are always very methodical and formulated and I usually find a more logical explanation. It's much easier to blame a strong emotion on endorphins than to found your beliefs in an invisible deity. I respect the religious for that alone...it takes an enormous amount of trust in your own spirituality to lead a faithful life.

That said, I believe that we are still evolving intellectually and I think within a couple of hundred years, religion will have faded to the brink of non-existence. Sure, there will likely be some populations still practicing then, but it will probably be mostly the poorer, more oppressed groups.

Consider the following conversation:

BOB: "You know, I read the other day that the Greeks' believed in a sun god, and that the sun crossing the sky was Helios himself riding on a golden chariot. What a riot, haha!"

TIM: "Yeah, it's pretty funny how much we've advanced since then. You know, it's only been a hop and a skip in time, considering the age or the earth."

BOB: "Haha...crazy, right!?"

TIM: "Yeah, crazy."

BOB: "Ok, well I'm going to get going...gotta get ready for mass tonight."

TIM: "Great, see ya' there! God Bless!"
 
Darky said:
I find it sad that you actually believe people only act right because of religion. Aren't one of the ones stating how you don't need religion to act right? Sounding a little "holier than thou", eh? ;)
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Sad? I find it sad that the only thing standing between some people and a life of criminal activity is a 2000 year old book of stories.

Or see: "born again Christians" who claim they found God while serving their 3rd jail term.

Holier than thou? Not at all....I just find it sad that people only do the right thing b/c they fear punishment from their God when they die, instead of just realizing that "hey jackass, you shouldn't rob that bank b/c it isn't YOUR MONEY". But even religion can't stop some people - because they believe all they have to do is ask for forgiveness.

In other crimes, people are doing it b/c they feel compelled by God to kill that abortion doctor? How many crimes have been carried out by someone "in the name of being Agnostic"? ;)
 
REVROK said:
At any rate... I am sure that we would all get along just great on the trail... you guys are all welcome at my fire and as my spotter anytime, and that is what this site is really all about. I really apologize for getting as caught up in this discussion as I did and for any way I may have offended. I genuinely enjoy the debate and so understand that there was sincerely no rancor or intent on my part if I offended someone. I notice our OP never participated... he must be sitting back laughing at what he started! :cheers:
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I would like to echo the preceding statement. I know that my opinions on the subject can be quite inflammatory (you should see the stuff I edited out of my own posts).


Anyone wanna go wheeling tomorrow? Chinaman Gulch?
 
Well, since we're all being so open like this....

My maternal great-grandma is probably the most influential person of my early childhood. So much that the tattoo on my left shoulder is in her memory. Although she is the most Christian woman I have ever met, she was never one to preach to anyone (including us kids) and she never used religion as a tool. She taught us all from a very young age to be good people - plain and simple. She never told us to read our bible or go to church - the lessons she taught about life and morals didn't harbor on religion.

#2, my best friend for the past 12 years is one of the most God-fearing Christians I've ever met - and again, he doesn't preach to me or try and sway my beliefs - and I don't question his. We don't have to agree on everything to act like we're brothers.
 
I know people who believe the government conspiracies, and people who believe the government is really just trying to help. I vehemently disagree with those beliefs too- but that doesn't mean I dislike the people, and I wouldn't hesitate to help if they asked. :)
 
Boatwrench said:
I'll stick up for REVROK. The way the question was presented was similair to your wife asking whether these pants make her a$$ look big, either answer would cause grief.

Here's "The Question" from BigAlpha: "What if the widow goes into the marriage knowing she'd be burned alive if and when her husband died?"

and Darky's response: "In a society where the widow gets burned alive when the man dies, she likely doesn't have much choice in whether or not she gets married."

A perfectly legitimate answer, but here is mine: If she does go into a marriage willing, knowing fully the potential outcome if her husband preceeds her in death, she's stupid. The key is willing. Many cultures women are nothing more than servants or property, hence the custom of the dowry.
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Not trying to be argumentative (hard to believe, I know). What I was getting at is this: Can morals change based on the situation and the willingness of the people involved.

Obviously if you do something to someone against their will, it's probably immoral. But if they entered into the situation knowing that a certain event will create a certain outcome, is it any more moral?
 
JNickel101 said:
Sad? I find it sad that the only thing standing between some people and a life of criminal activity is a 2000 year old book of stories.

Or see: "born again Christians" who claim they found God while serving their 3rd jail term.

Holier than thou? Not at all....I just find it sad that people only do the right thing b/c they fear punishment from their God when they die, instead of just realizing that "hey jackass, you shouldn't rob that bank b/c it isn't YOUR MONEY". But even religion can't stop some people - because they believe all they have to do is ask for forgiveness.

In other crimes, people are doing it b/c they feel compelled by God to kill that abortion doctor? How many crimes have been carried out by someone "in the name of being Agnostic"? ;)
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Apparently you either are missing or ignoring my point. I know of no one who requires religion in order to keep from raping, murdering, and stealing.
 
Darky said:
Apparently you either are missing or ignoring my point. I know of no one who requires religion in order to keep from raping, murdering, and stealing.
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I'm neither ignoring nor missing anything. I believe the origins of religion started for two reasons - manipulation, and control - of large numbers of people (society) by a few people who were in "power". Fear tends to do both rather well. Kind of like today, even if you're not religious, there is always something which elicits fear in society - Global Climate Change....African Killer Bees....H1N1....Bird Flu....SARS....and causes people to have a particular response.

If it wasn't for religion, what examples would parents use to teach their kids right from wrong? I bet most would draw a blank....pretty sad. You shouldn't need religion to teach right from wrong - but unfortunately, that's all that some people go off of. "Why is it bad to kill people?" "Well Jimmy, because God says so in the Ten Commandments". Lame.

As stated many times (in this thread and others), each religion has its own set of rules and moralities. What may be acceptable/required in one, is frowned upon or sinful in another. Why? Because that particular religion was developed that way, to create a society deemed "proper" by someone.
 
JNickel101 said:
In other crimes, people are doing it b/c they feel compelled by God to kill that abortion doctor? How many crimes have been carried out by someone "in the name of being Agnostic"? ;)
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i have been known to take change from church fountains and walk down to the corner and buy a 40oz.





NoFX- Best God in Show

I have no consideration
Zero mutual respect
For billions who suffer from rational thought neglect
I don’t wanna waste a sentence
I don’t want a conversation
That’s gonna end in disdain disbelief and aggravation

And I find it’s getting harder to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
In Santa Clause and Noah’s Ark, and Their god is the best
My distaste has turned into detest

Who would read a 2000-year-old medical journal?
Techniques for blood-letting
Advice on trichinosis
Would you navigate the globe
With a map of a flat Earth?
Without DNA testing would you believe virgin birth?

And I find it’s getting painful to put up
With grown adults who actually believe
In unicorns and creation and god always takes their side
That’s when my innocent jabbing turns snide

Thank god for the Grammy
Thank god for the touchdown
Thank god for blowing up the enemy’s sacred ground
So how am I supposed to take anything you say seriously
When you swap free will for faith, hope and pre-destiny?

And it’s getting agonizing to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
Mythology and history trump physics and science
My aversion has turned to aberrance
 
Everyone thinks they are so smart, like somehow your ability to reason with yourself that you are right, makes everyone else wrong.
 
goodburbon said:
I know of a few whose religion requires it of them....Just food for thought.
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JNickel101 said:
I'm neither ignoring nor missing anything. I believe the origins of religion started for two reasons - manipulation, and control - of large numbers of people (society) by a few people who were in "power". Fear tends to do both rather well. Kind of like today, even if you're not religious, there is always something which elicits fear in society - Global Climate Change....African Killer Bees....H1N1....Bird Flu....SARS....and causes people to have a particular response.

If it wasn't for religion, what examples would parents use to teach their kids right from wrong? I bet most would draw a blank....pretty sad. You shouldn't need religion to teach right from wrong - but unfortunately, that's all that some people go off of. "Why is it bad to kill people?" "Well Jimmy, because God says so in the Ten Commandments". Lame.

As stated many times (in this thread and others), each religion has its own set of rules and moralities. What may be acceptable/required in one, is frowned upon or sinful in another. Why? Because that particular religion was developed that way, to create a society deemed "proper" by someone.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the Bible takes a fairly strong stance on murder, rape, theft, etc, but that's not why I haven't gone out and raped someone. Rape, murder, theft, it's wrong no matter whether I believe in God or not. I've always been a churchgoer, but haven't always actually cared about it to drive my life. I've done stuff that is wrong according to the Bible but fine according to society, but certain things are just plain wrong. I don't murder not because the Bible says so, but because it's wrong (a justified killing would be different IMO...). I haven't gone out and raped some chick not because the Bible says so, but because it's just plain wrong. I don't get drunk anymore, not because the Bible says don't get drunk, but because I pretty much outgrew it. I still drink, but only a couple beers, maybe 4 if at a BBQ or something. And I outgrew drunkenness before I actually made up my mind about what I was going to do with this Christianity business. However, I try to avoid ogling women/porn because the Bible teaches not to, but also because as I've gotten older (I'm a whopping 27 now!! ;)) I've come to the belief that women deserve more respect than that. Especially since getting married. Chick at the mall, she's likely some guy's GF/wife. When I catch a guy checking my wife out, I want to kick his a$$, so I think about her man, and how he probably hates it when people eyeball his gf/wife.
Basically what I'm trying to get at is that some things, yes, are driven by a desire to live right according to the Bible, but the idea that people only try to live right because of the Bible is foolish. Like you've said, you don't need the Bible to live right and help others, how is that you can say that Christians do?
 
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