American Made Stuff

[frankenstang57]

THERE is something to be proud of. It's the unions that have forced labor overseas.

Eh, I doubt his job is going anywhere. I will venture to guess he is a tad bit smarter than you...

 

[XJ Dreamin']

oh, that one 'SCABS'

Bingo!

See, I'm a bit confused. If the unions drove all the jobs overseas, how come there is a labor shortage so serious that the administration's favorite immigration bill keeps all the immigration labor right where it is? Do you see the weirdness? Labor drove all the jobs overseas, but there is such a severe labor shortage that we have to import 10M laborers. I don't get it.

But, it gets even weirder. The administration's favorite immigration bill will legitimize and document all immigrant laborers. I'm willing to lay down a bet of the 6-pack of brew of your choice (or equivalent volume of alcohol) that once those workers are legitimate and documented, they will be only too willing to hit the picket lines.

On the other side, there are plenty of American workers who are nearly as desperate as the average immigrant. The difference between the two is that the American worker is not so desperate that he/she would place him/herself in the position of having to trim trees in a thunderstorm. And forget about using prisoners. Prison labor has to abide by all state and federal work environment standards. So, as I see it, there are three possible futures. 1: We send all immigrant labor packing. American laborers will fill the vacated jobs, but not at the same crap pay and crappy working conditions. Consumer costs will increase (at least for those commodities formerly dependent on immigrant labor). 2: Legitimize and document immigrant labor. They then acquire representation and negotiate scale pay and improved working conditions. Consumer costs increase (at least for those commodities dependent on the documented alien work force). 3: We do nothing. The immigrant labor force continues to degrade the work environment. Consumer prices do not increase, but the American laborers' buying power (standard of living) decreases and everybody will end up having to work an hour-and-a-half to buy a BigMac.

I guess the administration's favorite immigration bill isn't looking so bad (My mouth feels dirty just typing that).

 

[RichP]

Bingo!
I guess the administration's favorite immigration bill isn't looking so bad (My mouth feels dirty just typing that).

There is one misunderstanding here. Lack of Labor as reported from corporate management/america does not mean there are no laborers, it translates to 'no CHEAP or BELOW living wage labor' for skilled jobs which cuts into the profit pie. OK, Charles Smith III'rd goes to college and gets his degree in marketing, accounting, etc and works his way up, he learns golf, tennis, correct table manners, learns how to brown nose and over all ends up as a CEO thru the old boys network. So he's at the top but his company is not doing so well, they made some bad choices, remember, this is a well educated dude that never actually did any work, just like a politician only higher paid, that 6 wheel car with the built in washer and dryer did not sell so well and their bonuses are going to really bad this year. Guess we need to close a factory or two. This goes on for a few years and thru no fault of their own suddenly the 6 wheel washing machine car takes off and charles is hailed as a genius and such awsome foresight so charles gets to re-negotiate his contract into the multi million category and of course he is going to take care of all his 'buddies'. They are down to the bare minimum on manufacturing costs, they have squeezed the suppliers in a manner that makes walmart green with jealousy and there is only one place left to cut costs and thats with the people who actually do the work and make the product. They need to bring in ignorant and untrained people so they do.
I've been sitting thru a bunch of meetings with venture capitalists for the last 3 months, the stories they tell sicken me. Perfectly well running companies bought out and broken up for the pieces. Most of them are stalins with spreadsheets.
Oh well, back to my servers...

 

[POSXJGuy]

aaah, another interesting thread and i can still hear the fiddle and banjo in the background. face it, you are gonna always be buying something made in china whether you like it or not. if you dont, another member in your family will bring it home for you. i have seen harley riding "so called patriots" bragging about the latest addition to their chrome ride which were made in China. Have you been in a Harley dealer? Every other piece of gear is made in China.

Call it crap or whatever you still feed their economy even when you dont know it.

Then check this out, my wife is from Eastern Europe. Right now a lot of Korean companies are building there because its even CHEAPER than building in asia for factories. Yep, you got that sh*t right. Its cheaper than building in asia and manufacturing in asia. Soon you might have bearings from Slovakia, clothes from Hungary and then you'll be whining again why its so fri**in hard to find things made in the USA. The reason is economics and why the hell would they build and make things here when they can do it overseas, pay shipping and build a factory all for less money that it would be to employ whiny Americans to do the job and all the Union (got to have 3 people pressin that button simultaneously to make it work rules.) BS in place of a factory that runs efficiently, and with less BS just because it can?

I realize the quality is not the same and for some items its not that crucial. Its gonna be a matter of time before China catches up and makes things just as good and pretty soon the small mom and pop shops making widgets in the USA will be out of business because they have to charge too much.

Thats life, get used to it. If you made it this far in life you should have already figured this much out already.

The company I work for just shut down two plants in the USA and opened up two in Singapore. We used to pay .16 per piece to have computer parts programmed and now we will be paying .12 each. Its 4 cents cheaper but when you are talking millions of parts its a great deal.

Easy for someone to hate the concept of offshoring until the money starts flowing, then people have a strange way of miraculously understanding how it all works and then maybe end up liking it. Were not talking about buying a frickin box wrench at the local true value run by gramma and grandpa, were talking millions of dollars of product.

Who would not do so? Why not?

So, what the hell, as much as I hate it, I'll buy something made in China because its what I can get and not have to spend 10.00 in gas fgoing to a certain store and running up and down the aisles with no guarantees i'll get the USA made version.

party on!

party1arty1:

 

[POSXJGuy]

In the case of the 60's blacks moving into an all white neighborhood it was called 'block busting' where a white buyer would actually do a straw sale to a black family.
My guess it's called union busting.

its kind of funny, in my neighborhood its primarily black and mexican people, when a white family moves in they usually move within a year because they feel like they are the outsiders.

the man who lived across form me once got pissed that i supported the latino man on a 3 wheel bike who comes down my alley with an ice cream cart and asked why i dont buy ice cream at the store. i said "because this man busts his ass on hot days and brings this sh*t to my garage door, i dont see no superkmarket going out of their way doing this". He moved a week later. I think he just hated the latino music the man played as he rode his little ice cream car bike thing.

matter of fact, i think i'll be buying some today, its kinda warm!

 

[POSXJGuy]

its kind of funny, in my neighborhood its primarily black and mexican people, when a white family moves in they usually move within a year because they feel like they are the outsiders.

the man who lived across form me once got pissed that i supported the latino man on a 3 wheel bike who comes down my alley with an ice cream cart and asked why i dont buy ice cream at the store. i said "because this man busts his ass on hot days and brings this sh*t to my garage door, i dont see no superkmarket going out of their way doing this". He moved a week later. I think he just hated the latino music the man played as he rode his little ice cream car bike thing.

matter of fact, i think i'll be buying some today, its kinda warm!

the guy doing my smog test last year said by looking at my VIN number on my XJ it states that it was one that was build in Mexico. Isnt that funny? Not even these them here Xj's are all built in the USA.

 

[RichP]

its kind of funny, in my neighborhood its primarily black and mexican people, when a white family moves in they usually move within a year because they feel like they are the outsiders.

the man who lived across form me once got pissed that i supported the latino man on a 3 wheel bike who comes down my alley with an ice cream cart and asked why i dont buy ice cream at the store. i said "because this man busts his ass on hot days and brings this sh*t to my garage door, i dont see no superkmarket going out of their way doing this". He moved a week later. I think he just hated the latino music the man played as he rode his little ice cream car bike thing.

matter of fact, i think i'll be buying some today, its kinda warm!

Back in the pre 70's real estate agents would not even show a house in a white neighborhood to a black or non-white family. In fact it could get them fired by their brokers. When they decided to break into a white neighborhood they would use shills to make the purchase and then a minority family would move in quickly followed by housing prices dropping 50% almost overnite.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

There is one misunderstanding here. Lack of Labor as reported from corporate management/america does not mean there are no laborers, it translates to 'no CHEAP or BELOW living wage labor' for skilled jobs which cuts into the profit pie. OK, Charles Smith III'rd goes to college and gets his degree in marketing, accounting, etc and works his way up, he learns golf, tennis, correct table manners, learns how to brown nose and over all ends up as a CEO thru the old boys network. So he's at the top but his company is not doing so well, they made some bad choices, remember, this is a well educated dude that never actually did any work, just like a politician only higher paid, that 6 wheel car with the built in washer and dryer did not sell so well and their bonuses are going to really bad this year. Guess we need to close a factory or two. This goes on for a few years and thru no fault of their own suddenly the 6 wheel washing machine car takes off and charles is hailed as a genius and such awsome foresight so charles gets to re-negotiate his contract into the multi million category and of course he is going to take care of all his 'buddies'. They are down to the bare minimum on manufacturing costs, they have squeezed the suppliers in a manner that makes walmart green with jealousy and there is only one place left to cut costs and thats with the people who actually do the work and make the product. They need to bring in ignorant and untrained people so they do.
I've been sitting thru a bunch of meetings with venture capitalists for the last 3 months, the stories they tell sicken me. Perfectly well running companies bought out and broken up for the pieces. Most of them are stalins with spreadsheets.
Oh well, back to my servers...

Ok, this is getting too muddied up. I think maybe we're looking from different angles. Here's my angle.

The administration is not going to kick out the immigrant work force because the businesses that use (exploit) them want the cheap labor. It's another example of GDub's policy that "what's good for my business friends is what's going to happen and no other considerations merit any attention."

This morning CNN was talking to an exec from Cisco. He wants the government to give an automatic green card to any alien who gets a masters in computers or math at a school in the US. That's what he said - on national TV. He also said that Cisco spends millions on education at the BS and MS level. I assume that some of that money was spent as scholarships to aliens to attend US schools. I assume so because he was complaining that they spend that money on education and then the government makes it difficult to green card their graduates. So, he wants an automatic green card for an alien of their choice just because they spent money on him.

I wonder if the government would pay for a masseuse to relieve the pain in my neck from shaking my head in disbelief every morning? I guess I should just turn off CNN and save my neck.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

aaah, another interesting thread and i can still hear the fiddle and banjo in the background. face it, you are gonna always be buying something made in china whether you like it or not. if you dont, another member in your family will bring it home for you. i have seen harley riding "so called patriots" bragging about the latest addition to their chrome ride which were made in China. Have you been in a Harley dealer? Every other piece of gear is made in China.

Call it crap or whatever you still feed their economy even when you dont know it.

Then check this out, my wife is from Eastern Europe. Right now a lot of Korean companies are building there because its even CHEAPER than building in asia for factories. Yep, you got that sh*t right. Its cheaper than building in asia and manufacturing in asia. Soon you might have bearings from Slovakia, clothes from Hungary and then you'll be whining again why its so fri**in hard to find things made in the USA. The reason is economics and why the hell would they build and make things here when they can do it overseas, pay shipping and build a factory all for less money that it would be to employ whiny Americans to do the job and all the Union (got to have 3 people pressin that button simultaneously to make it work rules.) BS in place of a factory that runs efficiently, and with less BS just because it can?

I realize the quality is not the same and for some items its not that crucial. Its gonna be a matter of time before China catches up and makes things just as good and pretty soon the small mom and pop shops making widgets in the USA will be out of business because they have to charge too much.

Thats life, get used to it. If you made it this far in life you should have already figured this much out already.

The company I work for just shut down two plants in the USA and opened up two in Singapore. We used to pay .16 per piece to have computer parts programmed and now we will be paying .12 each. Its 4 cents cheaper but when you are talking millions of parts its a great deal.

Easy for someone to hate the concept of offshoring until the money starts flowing, then people have a strange way of miraculously understanding how it all works and then maybe end up liking it. Were not talking about buying a frickin box wrench at the local true value run by gramma and grandpa, were talking millions of dollars of product.

Who would not do so? Why not?

So, what the hell, as much as I hate it, I'll buy something made in China because its what I can get and not have to spend 10.00 in gas fgoing to a certain store and running up and down the aisles with no guarantees i'll get the USA made version.

party on!

party1arty1:

Some years ago, before the movement to China, factories were moving to Mexico. A couple of years ago I was surfing and hit on a news magizine story focused on a worker in Northern Mexico. I guess the story was looking at the source of immigrants but, in any case, they were looking at this one guy. That particular day in his life he had an appointment with the boss at a factory where he had just been let go for a PPE safety violation. He wanted to try to get his job back at that factory (this is the funny part) because all of the other factories had shut down and moved to China! Now they're moving to Eastern Europe? That didn't take as long as I thought it would.

In any case, China is going to implode soon. It will then become the single largest welfare case on the planet - if there's anyone left after the fire storm.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

...Its gonna be a matter of time before China catches up and makes things just as good...

China will stop making crap when they get undersold by Eastern Europe.

Anyone, and certainly China if you look at the history of what the Chinese can do when they set their minds to it, can make high quality pieces. It's not merely the fault of being manufactured in China that so much of the junk marked 'China' is crap.

An example from my personal experience: Any ratchet handle factory is capable of making a quality ratchet handle. The Chinese ratchet handle manufacturer is not inherently incompetent at making ratchet handles simply because the factory is in China. There is another factor that relates to the quality of ratchet handle manufacture. That is the specifications for the ratchet handle being manufactured. Consider - if only the cost of labor accounted for the $10.00 difference in price between the Chinese ratchet handle that blew out its guts trying to loosen a lugnut, and the US ratchet handle that did loosen that lugnut (and every other bolt or nut that it has seen, since) then why did the Chinese ratchet handle fail? It failed because the manufacture of that ratchet handle was true to the specifications of the order placed by the ratchet handle distributor.

So, lets follow the logic. Is a ratchet handle factory in the US inherently better at making ratchet handles simply by virtue of being located in the US? No. But, given that the consumer pays more for the ratchet handle marked 'US', the consumer expects that the ratchet handle marked 'US' should perform. If the higher cost of labor in the US vs. China is the sole reason for the $10.00 markup on the ratchet handle marked 'US' vs. the ratchet handle marked 'China', there is no reason that the ratchet handle marked 'US' should perform any better than the ratchet handle marked 'China' except that the ratchet handle marked 'US' was manufactured in accordance with specifications that ensured it could handle a lugnut. Now, not all items marked 'US' are of the highest standard of manufacture, and not all items marked 'China' will automatically fail. However, in my experience, when gambling my money on a $10.00 difference between ratchet handles, the odds go to the one marked 'US'.

So, it's not the cost of labor that makes 'China' junk crap and 'US' tools superior. What, then accounts for the difference in quality that seems to parallel the difference in price? We come back to the specifications for the pieces being manufactured. One question that I have is this: You want to move your factory to China because the labor is cheaper. Fine, but why then do you start selling crap? But here's a bigger question? Why does anyone buy that crap? That leads to my main point.

It's not the fault of the laborers in China that they make crap, and it's not the fault of the factory in China that their laborers make crap. They are manufacturing exactly what the distributor's specifications ask for. Why does the distributor submit specifications for crap? Because he can sell crap by the shipload because it cost $10.00 less on the shelf. So tell me. Who's fault is it that junk labeled 'China' is crap?

 

[75SV1]

I've actually bought some stuff from eastern Europe. Micrometers and machinist tools. I also have a lot of Starret stuff. I have seen some of the mics made in China. Some of the china stuff is good, others junk from the same manufacture. The East Europe stuff is close to Starret or Mitutoyo quality, but a 1/4 of the price, maybe 2X the price of China stuff. I think if the china stuff was made to the same quality it would cost more. Probably the same or more as the East Euro stuff.
New Balance use to be made in the US and the same with Red Wing. I think Red Wing uses off shore components. I like both. They just can't compete without watching the bottom line. Same with Starret and a lot of other US manufactures. Most are finding out you need some amount of US manufacturing capabilities. The market can change quickly, and it takes a few months to get something shipped from offshore.
I saw on some news show that people are building houses out of the cargo containers. The materials (steel) is going cheap and they can't ship them back empty for any amount of money.
I personally try and buy US stuff when I can. Still, its hard to find and on some stuff nearly impossible. Also, it depends on how much difference, how much will I use it. Or if an auto part, do I want to have to replace it again.
Tom

 

[RichP]

New Balance sneakers are actually designed in allentown pa, neighbor is the cad operator for the things, other brands too, they build the injection molding molds there and then ship them to manufacturing plant of whoever bid low for production.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

New Balance sneakers are actually designed in allentown pa, neighbor is the cad operator for the things, other brands too, they build the injection molding molds there and then ship them to manufacturing plant of whoever bid low for production.

There is a slow, creeping reduction in quality going on. How far down it can go I'm not sure, but it's really starting to annoy me. Light bulbs - I can't find a light bulb that isn't made in China. So what? A light bulb is a light bulb. But they're burning out quicker than they should. Not only do they burn out, but often the glue between the bulb and the base fails. How common was that before, say 10 years ago? I'm switching over to the coiled floresent bulbs, not for efficiency but because I get tired of changing the damn bulbs so often. Service at fast food and other retailers is becoming a thing of the past. Why? Because management is shirking on training. Why? Because it's expensive - duh. That expense used to be considered essential to maintain a customer base, but lately management has come to realize that the customers will just keep on coming in no matter how bad the service.

My point earlier was that labor cost is not the only factor in the magnitude of the exodus of manufacturing. An acceptance by the consumer of lower quality because the widgit costs $10.00 less is also significant. Sure they moved the factory because labor costs were less, but once they got there they realized that the consumer would accept a lower quality product simply because the product cost less. That was a bonus! At the same time, because the US product costs more, the conumer expects higher quality.

In the long run, I've found that my money is better spent on quality. I'm not saying that I own 100% US, or that everything made in the US is natually high quality, but I don't knee-jerk buy the $10.00 less on any faith that it will measure up. Likewise, if service screws up, I let management know about it.

Come on people! They are slowly but surely whittling away at the edges, purchase by purchase paring away the standard that the customer is always right - that I've got money you want and by God you're going to have to give me something for it.

No reflection on New Balance, necessarily. My biggest problem in the shoe market is finding size 14 in anything less than $40.

 

[RichP]

No reflection on New Balance, necessarily. My biggest problem in the shoe market is finding size 14 in anything less than $40.

I just picked up 4 pairs of new balance sneaks, 2 pairs of MX620 blacks and two of the ummmm, of 610's in white [whatever I posted before, I have my black ones on so I can't look at my white ones right now] they all cost me $65 a pair at casual male. I went in to a sneaker discount store across the street where they were $45 a pair and they were NOT the same quality. I wear a 14 wide. I see this more and more, Ariens snow blowers, I have one and went into Home depot for some shear pins, they had the same model but the impeller housing was thinner and the whole thing was lighter, looked at a full price hardware store near me that also carries ariens, theirs was just like mine so the manufacturers ARE building cheaper lines to supply the mart style stores. The depot handles were also very flexable where mine are not.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

I just picked up 4 pairs of new balance sneaks, 2 pairs of MX620 blacks and two of the ummmm, of 610's in white [whatever I posted before, I have my black ones on so I can't look at my white ones right now] they all cost me $65 a pair at casual male. I went in to a sneaker discount store across the street where they were $45 a pair and they were NOT the same quality. I wear a 14 wide. I see this more and more, Ariens snow blowers, I have one and went into Home depot for some shear pins, they had the same model but the impeller housing was thinner and the whole thing was lighter, looked at a full price hardware store near me that also carries ariens, theirs was just like mine so the manufacturers ARE building cheaper lines to supply the mart style stores. The depot handles were also very flexable where mine are not.

My handle's pretty stiff, too :wink_wink: Sorry. Couldn't resist.

I am surprised no one has called me out on the irony of complaining about consumer complacency while whining about sneaker prices

My dad is a cheapskate, and I'm trying to wean myself off of that habit, but I just can't bring myself to spend more than $50 for a pair of shoes that I know I am going to tear up in less than a year. I paid $150 for my work boots but they're almost two years old now. If they last three years, that would be $50/year. So, logically, if I pay more for a pair of sneakers to get a good fit, I should also reap the benefit of longer life, thus gaining the fit I want at an average $$/year that I can stand. I just can't make that leap that more $$ will get me a sneaker that will actually last longer than what less $$ can buy. So, I end up, year by year, wearing sneakers that don't fit because I'm afraid that sneakers that do fit will end up costing more per year. Can anyone convince me that a sneaker that fits, and costs more, will, in fact last longer?

 

[Bradlybob]

My handle's pretty stiff, too :wink_wink: Sorry. Couldn't resist.

I am surprised no one has called me out on the irony of complaining about consumer complacency while whining about sneaker prices

My dad is a cheapskate, and I'm trying to wean myself off of that habit, but I just can't bring myself to spend more than $50 for a pair of shoes that I know I am going to tear up in less than a year. I paid $150 for my work boots but they're almost two years old now. If they last three years, that would be $50/year. So, logically, if I pay more for a pair of sneakers to get a good fit, I should also reap the benefit of longer life, thus gaining the fit I want at an average $$/year that I can stand. I just can't make that leap that more $$ will get me a sneaker that will actually last longer than what less $$ can buy. So, I end up, year by year, wearing sneakers that don't fit because I'm afraid that sneakers that do fit will end up costing more per year. Can anyone convince me that a sneaker that fits, and costs more, will, in fact last longer?

I try different brands/sizes of shoes at shoe stores and when I find something I really like and if it's not on sale, I write down all of the pertinate info and then shop on the net. Amazing how much cheaper last years models are at close-out places. My wife has also had good luck finding her hard to find size (13) at great prices.
I've had great luck with New Balance off road running shoes. They last 2 years easy with almost daily wear and then another couple of years as lawn mowing/4-wheeling shoes.
Now about that American made toaster oven..........

 

[XJ Dreamin']

I try different brands/sizes of shoes at shoe stores and when I find something I really like and if it's not on sale, I write down all of the pertinate info and then shop on the net. Amazing how much cheaper last years models are at close-out places. My wife has also had good luck finding her hard to find size (13) at great prices.
I've had great luck with New Balance off road running shoes. They last 2 years easy with almost daily wear and then another couple of years as lawn mowing/4-wheeling shoes.
Now about that American made toaster oven..........

Oh, man - But do I want to spend that much time in a shoe store? No, j/k. Good advice. As I get up there in years my ankles are starting to complain. I need to get something that doesn't add anymore stress.

About the toaster oven...I might could cobble something together. I've got several of the wife's old hair blowers (she keeps changing style)...those heating elements get pretty toasty. Mount a few of those on a couple of pieces of MDF...It might be a bit heavy for shipping though.

 

[Bradlybob]

Holly Crap! I never thought of that! Super turbo convection oven. Reheat pizza in 3 minutes. Roast a whole chicken in 10 minutes. With the patented thrust redirection duct it also doubles as hand dryer so you don't have to mess up the wifes dish towels after washing your greasy Jeep stained hands in the kitchen sink!
New from Ronco!
I can already hear my wife "Brad, have you seen my hair dryer"?
"Ah, no honey, but look what I just made"!

 

[MudDawg]

:greensmok

Now thats FUNNY!!!

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Holly Crap! I never thought of that! Super turbo convection oven. Reheat pizza in 3 minutes. Roast a whole chicken in 10 minutes. With the patented thrust redirection duct it also doubles as hand dryer so you don't have to mess up the wifes dish towels after washing your greasy Jeep stained hands in the kitchen sink!
New from Ronco!
I can already hear my wife "Brad, have you seen my hair dryer"?
"Ah, no honey, but look what I just made"!

Dude! Why didn't I think of the hand dryer option?! I'm always walking around the house with wet hands cause I don't dare touch any of the towels she hangs out I'd use paper towels but the damn roll is always emty. Who the frack uses up all the paper towels?