4.7L grand swap

[jeepsta]

Update, to who ever was asking if it would mate to a AW4 it might i dunno. i do know that it would turn it to butter real quick. some more reasoning behind the whole idea is that i have two semesters left of college life, and i am starting to collect parts. i don't really have to worry about emissions cuz i live in southern NM, but after a lot of thought im not gonna use this a whole lot on road. i was just getting ideas on what i could do. my best friend in highschool had a stroked 4.0L blew it to shreds after 25000 miles. i would much rather have a mopar V8 than anything else. i love doing something that people say i can't do. and about collecting parts, i just made a steal. i got a NP435, Dana 20, Ford 9in, and a Dana 44, for the swap of my 4.0 when the time is right. so in otherwords i need an engine and im set. haha, set for the big budget items that rock.

 

[5-90]

Why shouldn't the AW4 work with the 4.7, if you can get them bolted up? As I recall, it was used both behind the 318 and 360 in the ZJ, and it's the same transmission used behind the Toyota Turbocharged inline six (cf. Celica/Supra,) and it's often compared favourably to the THM700R4 when considering RWD/4WD 4-speed slushboxes.

Having torn a few apart meself, I'd not have any qualms about putting one behind a V8 - unless I was getting silly with the V8. I don't remember what the AW4 is rated to handle offhand, but it will handle pretty much anything you can put in front of it that doesn't run on exotic fuels (nitromethane, hydrazine, PGA, or anything like that.)

It would also make sense for a mild stroker, in good tune, to get better mileage than a stock 242 - since efficiency of a spark-combustion engine is directly related to compression ratio. Any good text on thermodynamics will tell you that - and that's got a lot to do with why aluminum heads have become so popular. Since aluminum conducts heat faster than iron, the use of an aluminum head all but requires a higher compression ration to maintain operating temperature - which increases the efficiency of the engine. The problem with the aluminum head is that it expands faster than iron 12ee-5 "/"/*F, vice 6ee-6 "/"/*F for iron,) which requires some heavy redesign for head gaskets to prevent "scrub-out." The resurgence of iron-sleeved aluminum blocks helps to offset this as well - and the use of cast-in dry sleeves takes care of a lot of the problems seen with sleeves in the first place (except you can't replace them anymore, and you'll have to scrap the whole block if you drop a sleeve.)

So, why should V8/AW4 be a problem?

5-90

 

[MJ_Chubs]

The AW-4 was only used behind the 4.0L in the ZJ for a couple of years (maybe) at the beginning of the production run. It was later switched to the 42RE. The 5.2L used a 46RH(?) and was later switched to the 44RE while the 5.9L got the 46RE.

 

[5-90]

Shows how often I work on ZJ's! :laugh3:

Seriously, tho, the original AW4 (Toyota) was designed for high-output engines - and was used by Toyota in the Celica, Supra, pickup, and RWD van - probably a couple other models as well.

Lexus (also Toyota) used it in a couple early RWD vehicle.

Then Jeep used it in the XJ and MJ behind the 4.0, and apparently only in the early ZJ's. They should have kept using it - it really isn't a bad box. Compared to most I've had to work on (PG, THM350/400/700R4/200/125, C4/6, 727/904, and some of the Alisons...) it's one of the easiest to service, and being simple it holds up well. With the removable bellhousing, there's no reason it can't be adapted to several other applications as well.

5-90

 

[JJacobs]

My AW4 is holding up fine to the nitrous'd 401, SO FAR. I've only had about 5 bottles through it and expect a failure at some point, plus I can't get the thing to shift above 5200 rpm. I'd buy Brett's gizmo, but don't want to spend the coin on it when a failure is likely on the way.

edit: based on pre-N20 dyno pulls I'm pushing approx. 480/575 rwhp/tq, or 600/725 flywheel. roughly.

 

[5-90]

Unless you're going to change the AW4 for something else, losing the box won't cost the gizzy you're going to buy to control it.

What you're probably going to lose will be the clutches, and maybe the band (there's only one.) I'll put my money on the clutches - and a master rebuild kit will have all the friction materials, steels, and seals you'll need to make it as good as pretty, and twice as new.

5-90

 

[ImGonnaSnap]

Whats up with all the haters? Do the swap, report back, then take it out and GET IT!

 

[XJ Dreamin']

As long as we're fantisizing: 383 6-pack. Always liked the sound of that :laugh3:

Do what you got money for. Post pics.

 

[seemyzwheelie]

DO THE SWAP.... LOL
I wanna see feedback from a V-8 swap...

as far as the V8's in the ZJ's........

5.2's were available ALL years, 5.9 was ONLY available in the 5.9 LIMITED... 10,000 made in fed emmisions, 15,000 in cali emissions....
5.2 WAS available in 98 still tho...


jus my 2 pennies...

 

[Dr. Dyno]

90% of your posts are how bitchin your junk is....yet for a name of DYNO, we have never seen actual graph and numbers, just alot of hearsay.

I agree with xjnation (dear gawd, did I just say that?). Your incessant insertion of stroker comments in every engine thread is getting annoying. Also, quite frankly, i don't believe your power numbers. Your calculated figures just do not work in the real world. My conservative estimate is that a stroker built for trail use puts out MAYBE 40 more horsepower to the rear wheels. So my original Renix 177 goes to 207 at the crank. Run that power through a heavy duty drivetrain, and 35+ inch mud tires, and I bet you see about 150 HP at the wheels. Please show me a dyno sheet with torque curves, and we can discuss further.

That's because I was living in Saudi Arabia until two months or so ago and I didn't have access to a dyno. Now that I'm living in the UAE, the nearest Dynojet dyno is just 1-1/2 hour's drive away in Dubai so I'll get some real chassis dyno numbers when the weather cools off a bit (it's still over 110*F here in the daytime). I'm curious to see if my HP/TQ estimates are close.
You're forgetting that my stroker has been breathed upon rather more (ported '92 head, 65mm Mustang TB, 2.5" exhaust) than many strokers so comparing it to a Renix-based stroker with a tiny Renix 51mm TB and unported Renix head is pointless.
I also have 27.4" street tires (225/70R15H), not 35" mudders, and I have an AX-15 5-speed tranny, not the AW4 auto, so my drivetrain HP/TQ losses are a lot less.

Most the guys here would not be able to afford to build a seperate long block then swap it in at our leisure.

Considering it would cost less than $400 to buy a junkyard longblock and maybe $1600 in parts and machine shop costs to build the stroker, that's a total of $2000 which you can spread over a few months.

As for a V8 swap. Down time?
If the entire swap vehicle was available as suggested the swap would be fairly painless and could be done in a long weekend being able to

That's a big IF. Not many people can find a swap vehicle that easily nor do they have the fabrication skills and facilities to do it. As I said in an earlier post, I'm not against V8 swaps. In fact, I think they're cool when done properly but it's misleading to think that you can do it in a weekend and get everything, especially the electrics and gauges, running properly.
I also feel that if you're gonna swap in a V8, it should have a displacement that's much higher than that achievable from a stroker (like the Chevy 350 SBC or the Dodge/Jeep Magnum 5.9 V8) so that the potential HP/TQ gains are that much greater. Why swap in a WJ 4.7 V8 when you can build a Jeep 4.7 I6 that's more powerful?

and for your info many of us actually drive our rigs, my 96 gets more miles per week than yours sees in a mont it would appear and 250,000 mile 95 and 96's are very common. We average 40,000 to 50,000 miles a year on ours

So you drive 1000 miles a week? Good for you. I drive my XJ every day and I still manage to drive 1200 miles/month despite not having to commute to work. FYI, that's still more than the average driver does.

 

[RER78]

Another option would be to find an AMC 304 or 360. I swapped a 304 into my XJ with very few issues and the bolt patterns on these blocks will let you use the AW-4 wit no adapters. I'm not sure on the 5sp. Exhaust and mounting are the only 2 things to worry about. I used an Edelbrock dual plane manifold and Holley Avenger 670cfm carb and it works sweet. They are found in old waggies CJs and some AMC cars like the Javelin, AMX, and Hornet. I choose this swap because of the ease of wiring and they are both great solid blocks for modifying. I've built drag motors with both of these making in excess of 600hp reliably and you could stroke the 360 to 383 or 390 if you wanted to. The AMC 390 and 401 would work to if you wanted to do some cutting and some parts are interchangable between all these engines.

 

[TRNDRVR]

 

[JJacobs]

RER78, all AMC V-8's are externally identical. 401 fits the same as a 304.

 

[draganof]

Wow, Just to add to the boiling pot. I put a 4.7 stroker bored .60 over in my XJ 5 months ago. yes all the normal added goodies, throttle body etc. Oh yes and the dreaded 3" exhaust from the header to the tailpipe tip. It will out pull Mustangs and Vettes for the first 50 feet. It will do the speed limit and a lot more. How much hp? Don't really care. What's important is everytime I start it up it makes me smile. Everyone thinks it's a V8, that makes me smile more. I guess what's really important is I built it for me. If you want a V8, do it. If you want a stroker, do it. Here is somthing to think about. What engine or stroker combination will you be able to fill up with gas and "no" spare parts and head out across the US for 2-3K miles? Me? I'll take my stroker. Parts are available at every Jeep dealer in the US.

 

[RER78]

Externally somewhat the decks are slightly wider at the manifold n internally yes just different srokes and counter balances on the crank. The heads r easily changed depending wat head you use on the 304 because larger valves in some 360 heads will catch the bore opening a tad. The 360 don't have this problem. But be carefull using large port volume heads on small displacement engines they rob low end torque. Every block has slighlty different cylinder wall thicknesses to accomodate it's bore the 304 can be punched out to be 360 if theres enough material. Some are a little shy just due to the castings. Hope this helps.

 

[rockwerks]

That's because I was living in Saudi Arabia until two months or so ago and I didn't have access to a dyno. Now that I'm living in the UAE, the nearest Dynojet dyno is just 1-1/2 hour's drive away in Dubai so I'll get some real chassis dyno numbers when the weather cools off a bit (it's still over 110*F here in the daytime). I'm curious to see if my HP/TQ estimates are close.

In other words you have been spouting BS on your HP/TQ numbers all along. I guessed as much

 

[rockwerks]

In other words you have been spouting BS on your HP/TQ numbers all along. I guessed as much

now was the 327 vigalante motor an AMC unit? IF so it would be my first choice

 

[Dr. Dyno]

In other words you have been spouting BS on your HP/TQ numbers all along. I guessed as much

OK, I guess you've got your head so deep in the sand that you haven't considered the possibility that I could be right so I'll give you some maths. This goes for you too CRASH since you're also calling BS.

In stock form, my XJ did the 1/8 mile in [email protected].
My most recent performance figures with the stroker were [email protected].

It takes a 47% increase in HP/weight ratio to produce such a gain in ET and a 39% increase in HP/weight ratio to produce such a gain in trap speed.
Let's take the lower figure (39%) of the two just to be conservative. Since I've reduced the vehicle's weight by 2% at the same time, the expected HP increase is 37%. Assuming I started out with 193hp at the flywheel ('92 HO 4.0, no cat), I should have something like 265hp at the flywheel now. Is that so unrealistic?

 

[jeepsta]

Another option would be to find an AMC 304 or 360. I swapped a 304 into my XJ with very few issues and the bolt patterns on these blocks will let you use the AW-4 wit no adapters...... I used an Edelbrock dual plane manifold and Holley Avenger 670cfm carb and it works sweet.

how well does this work off road. that is why i eliminated the 304 was because it was carborated. i have access to one of those for cheap too. so total if i were to do that, i would be looking at 600 bucks for the 304, np435, dana 20, and ford 9in, and they only part i don't like is that i would get a dana 35 for the front.

 

[Ludakris]

if your going to do a swap go with the 5.7L Hemi, its dimensionally smaller than the 4.7L and will fit much nicer under the hood. Mopar offers a crate version with all ya need... $6K or so...