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  #1  
Old July 1st, 2004, 19:41
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BrettM BrettM is offline
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Hydro-assist for $75

okay, I'm about to order my ram and hoses, and I just want to double check to see if anyone sees any problems. I will drill and tap the box to 1/4 npt. I will still need to pick up 4 90deg 1/4npt fittings and some steel to mount the ram. I have a Waggy D44 up front.

Ram: 1.125 bore, 7.5" stroke, .75" shaft. I've heard of eve 1.5" rams being a little too slow, and I'm only running 35s, so I think the 1.125" bore will be great. There should be plenty of stroke, and the .75" shaft is the same thickness as on many of the 1.5" rams.

Lines: 1/4x 36" lines, 1/4nptm on both ends. doing a bunch of searching it seems that everyone is happy with 1/4" lines, even with 1.5 and 2" bore rams. 36" is enough length for my setup, and I got a 3rd line as well for a spare.


so, any input?

if you go to this link there is a picture that has the part numbers from Surplus Center on it: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263691
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  #2  
Old July 1st, 2004, 21:22
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ashmanjeepxj ashmanjeepxj is offline
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

Id do the 1.5, i did the 1.5.

The 1.125 with a 3/4in shaft, your shaft to piston diamater ration is not great. You will have a stronger push then a pull, all single ended rams have this flaw, but the larger your shaft is and the smaller your piston is the more you will notice.
This one is 1987 push / 1,100 pull, so it almost twice as stong in one direction. This will cause your steering to be slower in one direction. your pull will only be 55% of your push.

The 1.5 3/4 shaft ram I used from the sirpulss center was $83 but the push pull is: 3,350 / 2,650, so my pull is 80% my push.

That is an acceptable ratio for the lower cost of a single ended ram. 55% doesent sound good engough for me.

Another issue, is that the stock ram I bought has the ports on the side, When Im at idle or going really slow my ram collects some bublles so it "cramps up" till I cycle it out. When I relocate my ram and add rodends to it I will have the ports on the top to prevent this.

Here is my tech artical:
http://www.wheelingarizona.com/tech/...cRamAssist.htm

I didnt look at your lines... I use the more expensive from west texas off road, surpluss center did have some that would work.
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  #3  
Old July 1st, 2004, 21:32
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

i understand the concern with the push-pull difference. it's not really a speed issue, since the 1.125 bore will always be faster than the steering box, but it is a bit of a strength of push/pull issue. I'm not really worried about that either since i'm only going to ever run 35s and i really don't want something really strong.

the bubbles thing is something i remember you mentioning and it makes sense. i'll just try mine out with the ports on the side, and it won't be hard to change it to rodends if i have problems.

thanks for the input, and i definitley appreciate your writeup on the drilling and tapping of the box!
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Old July 1st, 2004, 22:23
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Goatman Goatman is offline
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

How is the 1.5" ram at speed?

My Tommy Lee box is already ported for the hydro assist, I just have to decide what ram to use. I don't want to loose any capability running 50+ through the desert, so ram speed is a concern. I'm rarely unhappy with my steering effort, even with an 800 (not 808) box. I've mastered the art of giving the rig a little rocking motion when the steering is hard, and to me it's not much of a trail issue, even with the 37's. The thing that concerns me the most is the stress on the frame and track bar, and moving much of that to the axle housing with the assist would be a good thing.
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Old July 1st, 2004, 22:34
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

i've heard several times of the 1.5" rams being a little slow with the stock Jeep pump, that's one of the reasons I started looking at this 1.125" one. You could always mod your pump for more flow and the 1.5" would probably be fine: http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.co...rsteering.html

other things i like about the one i'm getting:

$43
weaker than the 1.5", i don't want the ram doing ALL the work
here's a link: https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.a...name=hydraulic
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Old July 1st, 2004, 22:55
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

I already have an AGR pump, which (luckily) has worked perfectly. I just want to be able to keep good feel at speed across the desert. Tommy Lee sells a ram that they make themselves, but they want $250 for it. It just doesn't seem worth it, although going cheap and not having it work properly isn't really cheap.
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Old July 1st, 2004, 22:58
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

the 1.5" rams at surpluscenter are about $80, no heims. you can get 1.5" rams from several companies with heims for about $150. Rockstomper, West Texas Offroad, etc
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Old July 1st, 2004, 23:06
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

I've seen them all, and read plenty about it, and talked on the phone.........just not completely satisfied yet with what the results would be.

I know, I know......just do it.

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Old July 2nd, 2004, 01:11
vintagespeed vintagespeed is offline
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

Goat, the results will be broken steering bits.

It's a simple equation that HAS TO be perfect:

Manual steering effort + power assist box + ram assist / steering stop = sheared steering arm bolts.

If your steering box stroke & your ram (aka cylinder ) aren't matched one is going to be fighting the other & someone's gotta lose.

The simple fact is that it wont be perfect, a compromise will be made and the cylinder will break your parts. Either do full hydro (like me) or manual, but dont try to do both.

.02

-jb
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 01:54
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagespeed
Goat, the results will be broken steering bits.

It's a simple equation that HAS TO be perfect:

Manual steering effort + power assist box + ram assist / steering stop = sheared steering arm bolts.

If your steering box stroke & your ram (aka cylinder ) aren't matched one is going to be fighting the other & someone's gotta lose.

The simple fact is that it wont be perfect, a compromise will be made and the cylinder will break your parts. Either do full hydro (like me) or manual, but dont try to do both.

.02

-jb
that's odd, you should tell that to the hundreds (thousands?) of people sucessfully running hydro-assist. some (big) trucks even came with it stock.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 05:55
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatman
The thing that concerns me the most is the stress on the frame and track bar, and moving much of that to the axle housing with the assist would be a good thing.
Have been running 44's on a chevy with assit for several years now, no more steering boxes ripping off the frame or frame cracking to pieces. I'm putting it on my project MJ now for the same reason. I haven't noticed to much push/ pull difference, I just know it'll turn like a caddy in the boulders with a welded d60 front end.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 09:11
snoopy snoopy is offline
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatman
How is the 1.5" ram at speed?
Snoopy had a 1.5 x 8" ram on it, and it worked AWESOME. I ran 38.5x14.50 SXs on Hummer Beadlocks at 12/9 psi AT ALL TIMES. Locked front and back of course. I never had any problems with speed. Just make sure you boost your pump.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 10:30
vintagespeed vintagespeed is offline
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettM
that's odd, you should tell that to the hundreds (thousands?) of people sucessfully running hydro-assist. some (big) trucks even came with it stock.
Just because lots of people do it doesn't mean it works correctly. Look at all the thousands of boneheads on still buying crap from Rusty's.

I'd tell them that I'll carry some extra 9/16" bolts for their steering arms when they bust off.

The simple fact is this. Your PS pump will bypass when your steering box hits full lock, that's that whiney noise you hear when you're making a hard lock turn. And your PS pump will bypass when your cylinder hits the end of it's stroke. But what happens when they dont hit the end of their stroke at the same point?

Having actually built a full hydro steering system (and not just web wheeled one together) I can say that the stock PS pump works awesome. I used a 4cyl pump like Beez to get the nice return line for the remote reservoir/filter. It has PLENTY of pressure stock and enough GPM for what we do. The only reason you'd need more is if you're building a Combine or something. I've got a 2 x 8 x 1.125 cylinder from Surplus center & it works great, fast as stock & you can turn the 38.5 x 14.50 TSLs easily even with the engine off & aired down to 6psi. Fullsize built the same setup as me and turns his 40s with no problem.

My whole point was that you MUST have a cylinder that exactly matches your steering box's throw. Good luck finding that at Surplus Center. And even if you find one you'll be working that front steering pretty hard, and the TB, and the frame and ...........

-jb
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 11:39
BIGWOODY BIGWOODY is offline
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagespeed
And even if you find one you'll be working that front steering pretty hard, and the TB, and the frame and ...........

-jb
Not to nitpick but how do you figure it works the frame and TB harder? If anything it's much easier on them. Another thing no one has mentioned, and I'm sure this will spark a whole new arguement but, My buddy just about killed himself and others on the road at 40mph when one of his hoses blew on his full hydro system(no it wasn't a ghetto fab. one, Howe dual direction piston)yes he could steer it a little, yes he hit the ditch, and yes he now has an assist set up on that rig. I have the stuff to run full hydro but after seeing that I'm going with the assist just to have something solid attached in my steering. It is really just a matter of cycling the steering and welding the mounts in the correct place, I have had it on other rigs and never had a problem.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 11:50
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ashmanjeepxj ashmanjeepxj is offline
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Re: Hydro-assist for $75

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagespeed
Just because lots of people do it doesn't mean it works correctly. Look at all the thousands of boneheads on still buying crap from Rusty's.

I'd tell them that I'll carry some extra 9/16" bolts for their steering arms when they bust off.

The simple fact is this. Your PS pump will bypass when your steering box hits full lock, that's that whiney noise you hear when you're making a hard lock turn. And your PS pump will bypass when your cylinder hits the end of it's stroke. But what happens when they dont hit the end of their stroke at the same point?

My whole point was that you MUST have a cylinder that exactly matches your steering box's throw. Good luck finding that at Surplus Center. And even if you find one you'll be working that front steering pretty hard, and the TB, and the frame and ...........

-jb
Not ture.

you could get a 6.5in throw ram and if you mount it to the correct spot on a high steer arm it will bottom out the same as mayby a stock pittman arm on a stock box with an 8in throw at the box but mounted further out on the steering arm then the ram....

If you mount the ram to your drag link.... then you have an issue.

With leafs on my front and no panhard bar, the box would tap out and Id still have another inch till the steering stops would tap out. On jack stands the steerign woudl go full clock to clock as I planned my Highseer arm.
This is becuase the leafs let the body move when the drag link pushes so you loose some of that 8in throw. Now with the ram, my box and ram will flow together, but the last inch will be ALL ram. If you trun verrry slowly then the box taps out, the ram will push at full speed the remaining inch till it taps out.

This has never been an issue for me.
I know how it works and how to setit up...
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