bmikes
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- portland or
Dang, I think I understand now. Thanks guys, I appreciate the detailed explanations!
-
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The 4500 MJ Build
- Thread starter TORX
- Start date
- Location
- Williams AZ
This makes sense. I've run a few triangulated four links on several lifted jeeps without bumpsteer (obviously got my track bars and drag links lined up right), but they did always bind at some point.
- Location
- Port Orchard, WA
Icemans
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Ridgefield, Washington
We are not going to make it to KOH. Between some design snafoos and getting the Ultra 4 car ready it just cant happen. It will be seen for the first time at EJS this year. That way we can put some time into the small things we want to accomplish with this truck. It will be a great spot to run it through its paces also. Keep watching this thread because we will be making some better progress very soon.
- Location
- NE Texas
Come on dustin.. It's been 11 days..
Icemans
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Ridgefield, Washington
We haven't been working on it so it's just been sitting there. As dustin said earlier we stopped all work on the MJ to work on the Ultra 4 car. It needed a lot of work to be ready for the koh race. We have had the transmission out twice and the front axle apart twice also. Finally wrapped up most everything last night. Now its time to pack, pack, pack so these guys are ready to get it done on the lake bed.
ashmanjeepxj
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Vail AZ, Jimmy's Cherokee Buggy
The MJ build is epic, cant wait to see this. Hopefully I will see it at EJS if we make the dirt riot race.
Icemans
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Ridgefield, Washington
We're trying. Start working on it again Saturday.
Thanks, Dave. Congrats on the KOH finish! It was nice meeting you and your team. We'll help pit for you guys anytime.
:greensmok
Time to update this build thread.
At the beginning of the year the team switched gears, and put the 4500 car on the back burner for the time being. The #689 Ultra4 car needed to be prepped for it's spot in King of the Hammers this year. We thrashed on that pretty much up until the week we left.
Read about our trip in my report, King of the Hammers 2014.
After KOH we spent some getting caught up life, but eventually started working on the 4500 MJ again. However, most of our team had plans to head down to Easter Jeep Safari in Moab this year, which meant also working on other projects too. Such as Ted's 5.3L swap in his YJ.
Winton was busy adding hydro assist on the LJ.
Progress on the 4500 was slow during this time, but we have to play too. Now that the team is back and settled in from EJS, we've gotten back into the groove for working on the 4500 MJ. Here's a little of what's been happening.
Some machining needing to be done on the caliper brackets.
This allowed us to run an off-the-shelf bracket on the axle, and still have the pads line up evenly. For brakes we're using some massive ~07' Dodge 1500 units. They're pretty slick, and allow for pad changes without removing the caliper completely.
Machined our steering spacers for our tie-rod.
Tie-rod is mounted in double sheer off the Solid Knuckle and Artec Hi-steer Arm. It's an incredibly stout setup.
We then looked into how we wanted to mount our coil-overs and bypass shocks. Our solution was to build off our front axle lower control arm mounts by basically using two mounts.
The boxed in mount creates a flat surface to mount our shocks off of, and also allows us to tie all the brackets together. Not to mention it finishes of the axle nicely.
For the coil-over / bypass mount we went semi-custom by welding two individual premade brackets together.
Winton pulled the motor to have it dyno'd and computer flashed. We hope to have it back soon.
Before it left though, some motor mounts began to take shape using some poly bushings. She sits low.
Our lower and upper link setup on the frame side. Plenty of gusseting will be added.
Winton TIG welding the rear axle shock mounts.
Rear axle came together a lot quicker. We just need to dial in our upper link mounts, make some links, and it'll be set.
At the beginning of the year the team switched gears, and put the 4500 car on the back burner for the time being. The #689 Ultra4 car needed to be prepped for it's spot in King of the Hammers this year. We thrashed on that pretty much up until the week we left.
Read about our trip in my report, King of the Hammers 2014.
After KOH we spent some getting caught up life, but eventually started working on the 4500 MJ again. However, most of our team had plans to head down to Easter Jeep Safari in Moab this year, which meant also working on other projects too. Such as Ted's 5.3L swap in his YJ.
Winton was busy adding hydro assist on the LJ.
Progress on the 4500 was slow during this time, but we have to play too. Now that the team is back and settled in from EJS, we've gotten back into the groove for working on the 4500 MJ. Here's a little of what's been happening.
Some machining needing to be done on the caliper brackets.
This allowed us to run an off-the-shelf bracket on the axle, and still have the pads line up evenly. For brakes we're using some massive ~07' Dodge 1500 units. They're pretty slick, and allow for pad changes without removing the caliper completely.
Machined our steering spacers for our tie-rod.
Tie-rod is mounted in double sheer off the Solid Knuckle and Artec Hi-steer Arm. It's an incredibly stout setup.
We then looked into how we wanted to mount our coil-overs and bypass shocks. Our solution was to build off our front axle lower control arm mounts by basically using two mounts.
The boxed in mount creates a flat surface to mount our shocks off of, and also allows us to tie all the brackets together. Not to mention it finishes of the axle nicely.
For the coil-over / bypass mount we went semi-custom by welding two individual premade brackets together.
Winton pulled the motor to have it dyno'd and computer flashed. We hope to have it back soon.
Before it left though, some motor mounts began to take shape using some poly bushings. She sits low.
Our lower and upper link setup on the frame side. Plenty of gusseting will be added.
Winton TIG welding the rear axle shock mounts.
Rear axle came together a lot quicker. We just need to dial in our upper link mounts, make some links, and it'll be set.
At this point the only thing left to figure out on the front was our track bar. At one point we seemed to have ample space, but after adding steering, and brackets we began scratching our heads. This is with a mock up flat pitman arm, and with the suspension at full compression.
Ideally you want your track bar to move in the same arc as your drag link. This means keeping the same angle, and length. If you vary too much between the two you run the risk of introducing bump-steer into your suspension, and more side to side movement during articulation. With our Scout steering box we have a draglink of 39", which is making track bar design a bit tough, but we think we have a solution figured out.
Also we were a bit concerned with driveline clearance over the rear upper link mount. It turns out at full droop we did contact the mount, so we readjusted our cross-member height to make it work.
I'll try and keep the updates coming!
Ideally you want your track bar to move in the same arc as your drag link. This means keeping the same angle, and length. If you vary too much between the two you run the risk of introducing bump-steer into your suspension, and more side to side movement during articulation. With our Scout steering box we have a draglink of 39", which is making track bar design a bit tough, but we think we have a solution figured out.
Also we were a bit concerned with driveline clearance over the rear upper link mount. It turns out at full droop we did contact the mount, so we readjusted our cross-member height to make it work.
I'll try and keep the updates coming!
We've been plugging away in the shop little by little in the evenings. On Saturday the Ultra4 car was pulled out and given a post-KOH inspection. It was good to see it come alive again.
At full bump (8" uptravel) on the 4500 MJ we have ~7/8" between the axle truss and the frame. This made it pretty much impossible to run our track-bar so we settled on 7.5" of uptravel. However, this still left us with very tight clearances, which theoretically work on jack stands, but not so much when racing. We decided in order to squeeze some more uptravel out of the suspension, and gain more clearance overall we'd need to notch the frame.
Burned it out.
We capped the notch with the same material as the frame so it transitions really well. We also took this time to grind and clean up the front frame section since this will likely be the last time to do so. We probably shed 4lbs just from grinding.
The other goal for this week was finishing up the rear suspension. With most of the mounts in place we measured for our control arms. Lowers are 2x.250" DOM, and the uppers are 1.5x.250" DOM. We'll use these arms for awhile, but eventually will switch to solid 7075 aluminum links.
Rear double triangulated four link, complete.
We'll be back to work on it this weekend. Once the suspension is finalized we'll burn it all in, and then switch gears to cab and cage work!
At full bump (8" uptravel) on the 4500 MJ we have ~7/8" between the axle truss and the frame. This made it pretty much impossible to run our track-bar so we settled on 7.5" of uptravel. However, this still left us with very tight clearances, which theoretically work on jack stands, but not so much when racing. We decided in order to squeeze some more uptravel out of the suspension, and gain more clearance overall we'd need to notch the frame.
Burned it out.
We capped the notch with the same material as the frame so it transitions really well. We also took this time to grind and clean up the front frame section since this will likely be the last time to do so. We probably shed 4lbs just from grinding.
The other goal for this week was finishing up the rear suspension. With most of the mounts in place we measured for our control arms. Lowers are 2x.250" DOM, and the uppers are 1.5x.250" DOM. We'll use these arms for awhile, but eventually will switch to solid 7075 aluminum links.
Rear double triangulated four link, complete.
We'll be back to work on it this weekend. Once the suspension is finalized we'll burn it all in, and then switch gears to cab and cage work!
Bronzewyrm
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Independence,or
there is enough room in there to run the rear DS above the LCA Body side mount, how much droop do you anticipate the rear suspension having, and will there be a cardon or H block in the rear ds??
That shiz looks tight. in more than one way! GJ guys
Bronze.
That shiz looks tight. in more than one way! GJ guys
Bronze.
Yup, if you look back a few pics you can see our clearance at ride height. Surprisingly we found that the cardon joint doesn't dip down much throughout the range of travel. It's pretty consistent. The driveshaft will be a standard double cardon with 1350's I believe.
Unfortunately, for the 4500 class we're limited to 14" of suspension travel. We'll likely set up the rear with more up than down similar to the front(better for the go fast).
A few weeks ago Winton dropped our 6.0L LS2 off at Nutter Racing Engines in Vancouver to be dyno tested with our computer and SpearTech wiring harness. We got word it was ready, and were very pleased with the results. That's 448.8HP at 5900RPM. Not bad for a bone stock motor.
With the motor back at the shop, we finished up the motor mounts, and set it in place. Fit like a glove.
With our motor in place, we tossed the cab back on. With the 1" body lift we addedm what little factory floor we had left no longer lined up. We saw no point in keeping it around, and figured it would be easier to start our new floor off a clean slate.
Don and I fired up the grinders, and made quick work of removing the remaining floor pieces. Our plan is to bend up some 20 gauge sheet for the outside floor pieces, and then switch to aluminum for the center/transmission tunnel.
Lots of work to do inside, which will be our goal in the upcoming weeks.
Winton and I also finished up the rear suspension with some gussets, and final welding. It's good to go!
I know it doesn't look like much has changed, but we're really starting to finalize a lot of things one-by-one.
In the coming weeks we'll be working on seat mounts, floor, dash, cage work, and hopefully finishing that pesky track bar.
With the motor back at the shop, we finished up the motor mounts, and set it in place. Fit like a glove.
With our motor in place, we tossed the cab back on. With the 1" body lift we addedm what little factory floor we had left no longer lined up. We saw no point in keeping it around, and figured it would be easier to start our new floor off a clean slate.
Don and I fired up the grinders, and made quick work of removing the remaining floor pieces. Our plan is to bend up some 20 gauge sheet for the outside floor pieces, and then switch to aluminum for the center/transmission tunnel.
Lots of work to do inside, which will be our goal in the upcoming weeks.
Winton and I also finished up the rear suspension with some gussets, and final welding. It's good to go!
I know it doesn't look like much has changed, but we're really starting to finalize a lot of things one-by-one.
In the coming weeks we'll be working on seat mounts, floor, dash, cage work, and hopefully finishing that pesky track bar.
Productive day at the shop today!
One of the goals was to figure out our frame lengths, and build our bumpers/cross-members. Kevin began hole sawing the inner frame rails. That drill has more torque than some import cars.
Holes drilled.
3x.120" tube added and tacked in place. We only drilled the inner sides so we can use the outer material as a cap for the ends. Winton will TIG it all on for a clean end result.
Getting rid of the temporary cross-member, and cutting the front to length definitely finishes off the front nicely. The tube will stick out a half inch in front of our tires giving the car a great approach angle.
We followed suit on the rear and got rid of the temporary bracing, cut our rear frame rails to length, and added in our 3" tube. I believe our "bed" will be about 20" shorter than a stock short bed Comanche. All that space will eventually be filled with a fuel cell, radiator, spare tire(s), and a lot of tube.
We also got our outside 20 gauge floor pieces tacked on.
The cab has also now been welded back on. The 4500 MJ is once again a Unibody (but with a 1" body lift)!
With the frame rails cut to length, we can now start some cage work. We have some pretty good design ideas already flowing.
One of the goals was to figure out our frame lengths, and build our bumpers/cross-members. Kevin began hole sawing the inner frame rails. That drill has more torque than some import cars.
Holes drilled.
3x.120" tube added and tacked in place. We only drilled the inner sides so we can use the outer material as a cap for the ends. Winton will TIG it all on for a clean end result.
Getting rid of the temporary cross-member, and cutting the front to length definitely finishes off the front nicely. The tube will stick out a half inch in front of our tires giving the car a great approach angle.
We followed suit on the rear and got rid of the temporary bracing, cut our rear frame rails to length, and added in our 3" tube. I believe our "bed" will be about 20" shorter than a stock short bed Comanche. All that space will eventually be filled with a fuel cell, radiator, spare tire(s), and a lot of tube.
We also got our outside 20 gauge floor pieces tacked on.
The cab has also now been welded back on. The 4500 MJ is once again a Unibody (but with a 1" body lift)!
With the frame rails cut to length, we can now start some cage work. We have some pretty good design ideas already flowing.
Last edited:
With the cab welded back in place, and most of the suspension work being complete, we decided to start moving forward with the roll cage. Ultra4 rules state that if the car is under 4400lbs 1.75x.120 DOM may be used for the main structure of the cage. If the car is over, then 2x.120 DOM must be used. Knowing we'd be close to the 4400lb mark (if not over), we chose to play it safe and use 2" DOM for our cage work.
Loaded up a stick of 2" in the bender.
Layed out some angles on the floor.
Our plan was to use one piece on either side to span from the bottom of the A-pillar to the end of the rear frame rail. This meant having to execute a series of compound bends. There was quite a bit of head scratching and visualizing, but we nailed our bends.
Tried to match the body lines, and hold the tube off to give the cab some protection.
After a few work days we had some decent progress made on the main structure.
We got a cool idea for the front spreader, and dash bar. In the end the cage will tie everything together nicely at key points.
The rear design went through a series of stages. At first we ran the tube straight back to the rear frame. We mocked up our shocks, and realized we needed clearance, so we angled the tubes inward by about 20 degrees. The rear will be cross braced, and the tube span now fits our radiator perfect.
Joey also plugged away on the front track bar, which we've been putting off. The frame side bracket was tight next to the steering box, but we got it to work to maximize the length while also clearing the coilover at full bump.
Axle side was built to get the track bar as parallel as possible. We originally thought we may need to add a bend to it, which would force us to use a bushing on one end. However, we chose to modify our upper link bracket for a straight shot.
Plenty of clearance now at full bump. We're not far from parallel, and within about an inch and half on length from the draglink.
It's coming starting to all come together, and we're pretty stoked on the way it's all turning out!
Loaded up a stick of 2" in the bender.
Layed out some angles on the floor.
Our plan was to use one piece on either side to span from the bottom of the A-pillar to the end of the rear frame rail. This meant having to execute a series of compound bends. There was quite a bit of head scratching and visualizing, but we nailed our bends.
Tried to match the body lines, and hold the tube off to give the cab some protection.
After a few work days we had some decent progress made on the main structure.
We got a cool idea for the front spreader, and dash bar. In the end the cage will tie everything together nicely at key points.
The rear design went through a series of stages. At first we ran the tube straight back to the rear frame. We mocked up our shocks, and realized we needed clearance, so we angled the tubes inward by about 20 degrees. The rear will be cross braced, and the tube span now fits our radiator perfect.
Joey also plugged away on the front track bar, which we've been putting off. The frame side bracket was tight next to the steering box, but we got it to work to maximize the length while also clearing the coilover at full bump.
Axle side was built to get the track bar as parallel as possible. We originally thought we may need to add a bend to it, which would force us to use a bushing on one end. However, we chose to modify our upper link bracket for a straight shot.
Plenty of clearance now at full bump. We're not far from parallel, and within about an inch and half on length from the draglink.
It's coming starting to all come together, and we're pretty stoked on the way it's all turning out!
- Location
- San Diego
You can put some bends in that thing and still run Heims if you want, just cut up some poly bushings and use them as spacers to keep the panhard from falling over.
Muddy Beast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- WA
Awesome build! Good work you guys, looking forward to seeing what it turns into from here. Glad this came back up to the top when I happened to be on.
