- Location
- Williams AZ
Looks great. Don't know how I missed this thread for so long.
-
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The 4500 MJ Build
- Thread starter TORX
- Start date
Icemans
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Ridgefield, Washington
The dash frame is still all MJ. Lol
Lurch
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Long Beach, CA
I can't believe you guys have been hiding this build thread, glad that you posted the link finally. Awesome shop, awesome build. Looking forward to seeing this come together and hopefully in person this February.
Winton came up with a pretty cool inner frame brace consisting of 1.75" DOM. It just so happens the shallowest part of the frame is where it bends upward. This will help strengthen this area, as well as give the UCA mounts something to tie into to.
Burning it in.
We then made some cover plates to finish off the "frame". The riser off the end will be where the firewall portion of our cab will sit. It will be trimmed down to give enough surface to weld on. You can also see where we had to notch the frame for pulley clearance for the motor.
Meanwhile, Ted's been plugging away at the rear four link.
The rear frame section is pretty much boxed in, and the UCA brackets will sit in the pocket. We went with a center link bracket from Ballistic for the rear frame side lowers. It's pretty much ready to go, just have to check drive-line clearance.
Oh my...
Don's been busy plugging away on the rear axle truss.
We'll be running an over the axle style truss that our link mounts will mount to, as well as a back bone for the back of the housing as well.
Front frame plating added to help splice in the new front frame section. Between these plates and the inner tube system, it's stout. We might add some speed holes later.
Lastly, while discussing the project one night. Winton's wife Maureen brought up the idea of a body lift (yes a body lift on a Comanche) to get around our seat height and other packaging concerns. While we had discussed it a few times, we never actually investigated what all it would entail. We quickly tossed the cab back on, and much to our surprise it really didn't affect a whole lot. It was decided that the extra work would be worth it in the end.
As much as it hurt to take a step backward Ted cut off all the boat side tubes, and raised the sliders 1".
Few hours later, I had some new boatside tubes made.
Joey and I got them tacked on. We now have another inch of clearance under the slider.
More parts are starting to arrive. These should fit nicely in the dash.
I also want to give a special shout out to Yukon Gear and Axle for helping us out with all of our axle and differential needs. We chose to go with Yukon's nodular iron third members featuring load bolts to prevent deflection. They're a pretty impressive unit. Each third is setup with 4.88 gears, grizzly locker in the front, and spool in the rear.
It's slowly coming together, but February seems like it's just around the corner.
Burning it in.
We then made some cover plates to finish off the "frame". The riser off the end will be where the firewall portion of our cab will sit. It will be trimmed down to give enough surface to weld on. You can also see where we had to notch the frame for pulley clearance for the motor.
Meanwhile, Ted's been plugging away at the rear four link.
The rear frame section is pretty much boxed in, and the UCA brackets will sit in the pocket. We went with a center link bracket from Ballistic for the rear frame side lowers. It's pretty much ready to go, just have to check drive-line clearance.
Oh my...
Don's been busy plugging away on the rear axle truss.
We'll be running an over the axle style truss that our link mounts will mount to, as well as a back bone for the back of the housing as well.
Front frame plating added to help splice in the new front frame section. Between these plates and the inner tube system, it's stout. We might add some speed holes later.
Lastly, while discussing the project one night. Winton's wife Maureen brought up the idea of a body lift (yes a body lift on a Comanche) to get around our seat height and other packaging concerns. While we had discussed it a few times, we never actually investigated what all it would entail. We quickly tossed the cab back on, and much to our surprise it really didn't affect a whole lot. It was decided that the extra work would be worth it in the end.
As much as it hurt to take a step backward Ted cut off all the boat side tubes, and raised the sliders 1".
Few hours later, I had some new boatside tubes made.
Joey and I got them tacked on. We now have another inch of clearance under the slider.
More parts are starting to arrive. These should fit nicely in the dash.
I also want to give a special shout out to Yukon Gear and Axle for helping us out with all of our axle and differential needs. We chose to go with Yukon's nodular iron third members featuring load bolts to prevent deflection. They're a pretty impressive unit. Each third is setup with 4.88 gears, grizzly locker in the front, and spool in the rear.
It's slowly coming together, but February seems like it's just around the corner.
- Location
- NE Texas
The pressure's on!! :lickout:
Icemans
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Ridgefield, Washington
Well I haven't been over at the shop lately. So I went over today because I'm slow at work plus I felt guilty. I walked into the shop and Winton and Ted had the axle under the truck and were getting ready to start cycling the temporary links.
Full stuff driver side/ passenger side at ride height.
With the driver side at full stuff the lower link hits the frame. So we threw around some ideas and moved the lower links inward 1in. This did two things. It cut down on how much we had to clearance the frame and also gave us more triangulation.
Driverside again at full stuff.
Winton cutting out some old temporary crossmembers.
Full stuff both passenger and driver.
Full droop.
lots to do but got alot done.
Full stuff driver side/ passenger side at ride height.
With the driver side at full stuff the lower link hits the frame. So we threw around some ideas and moved the lower links inward 1in. This did two things. It cut down on how much we had to clearance the frame and also gave us more triangulation.
Driverside again at full stuff.
Winton cutting out some old temporary crossmembers.
Full stuff both passenger and driver.
Full droop.
lots to do but got alot done.
Got some more work done over the past few days. Headed over on Saturday to find Ted and Winton crunching anti-squat numbers on the computer. You can also see the POR Wheeler's are gearing up for KOH prep as well.
After we verified the numbers would work, we mocked up the brackets at different positions to gain some clearance. Then we cycled the suspension.
Lots of things happening on the passenger side, and to think we also have to fish a motor mount in there too. Link material is only temporary, we got some bling coming for the real ones.
Joey and Don then worked on mocking up the shocks to try and figure out steering box placement. We'll be running 2.5" ASD coilovers as well as a bypass shock as well, but for now we just used two 2.5" coilover bodies.
One way to cut a notch.
I put the final touches on our body lift kit. These lift blocks were machined from 1.25" tube. They will utilize the factory nut in the frame at the back of the cab, and then tie into the rear link cross-member. I guess it's still technically a "bolt on" body lift though.
Monday evening Ted set off on notching the frame for lower link clearance.
End result. You can see the metal sandwich of a frame we got going on. I sliced some 2.5" DOM in half that we'll use to fill the void.
Winton got the Artec lower mounts all burned together. Artec Industries makes some nice products, check them out for any DIY needs.
As we let the brackets cool, Ted and I put the rear link cross-member back in after it was welded. It's a pretty slick design, and will definitely help tie everything together. The notch of the back of our "body lift" fits up to the top cross-member tube, and will be welded to it.
The last task of the night was placing the frame side four link brackets on the frame for the final time. These are ready to be burned in, and gussets will be added.
At this point in time, we've all agreed we're not going to stress on making the KOH deadline. If the car is up and running by then, we'll absolutely consider taking it down. However, we don't want to cut corners in trying to wrap it up in five weeks. There's plenty of races throughout the year we can run and tune this thing at.
After we verified the numbers would work, we mocked up the brackets at different positions to gain some clearance. Then we cycled the suspension.
Lots of things happening on the passenger side, and to think we also have to fish a motor mount in there too. Link material is only temporary, we got some bling coming for the real ones.
Joey and Don then worked on mocking up the shocks to try and figure out steering box placement. We'll be running 2.5" ASD coilovers as well as a bypass shock as well, but for now we just used two 2.5" coilover bodies.
One way to cut a notch.
I put the final touches on our body lift kit. These lift blocks were machined from 1.25" tube. They will utilize the factory nut in the frame at the back of the cab, and then tie into the rear link cross-member. I guess it's still technically a "bolt on" body lift though.
Monday evening Ted set off on notching the frame for lower link clearance.
End result. You can see the metal sandwich of a frame we got going on. I sliced some 2.5" DOM in half that we'll use to fill the void.
Winton got the Artec lower mounts all burned together. Artec Industries makes some nice products, check them out for any DIY needs.
As we let the brackets cool, Ted and I put the rear link cross-member back in after it was welded. It's a pretty slick design, and will definitely help tie everything together. The notch of the back of our "body lift" fits up to the top cross-member tube, and will be welded to it.
The last task of the night was placing the frame side four link brackets on the frame for the final time. These are ready to be burned in, and gussets will be added.
At this point in time, we've all agreed we're not going to stress on making the KOH deadline. If the car is up and running by then, we'll absolutely consider taking it down. However, we don't want to cut corners in trying to wrap it up in five weeks. There's plenty of races throughout the year we can run and tune this thing at.
josefxj97
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bonney Lake, WA
Any update?
The 4500 MJ has temporarily been put on the back burner while we help with race prep on the POR Wheeler's Ultra 4 car.
Axles disassembled, bearings repacked, seals replaced, u-joints checked, heim joints replaced, chassis welds checked, fuel system re-plumbed, new master cylinder adapted and installed, tranny flushed, oil changed, and on top of that we're also working on getting the race trailer prepped as well.
As for the 4500 MJ, we decided to change plans with the front suspension. Rather than running a double triangulated four link in the front, we'll now be running a three link. We won't have to modify things too much, just relocating some brackets. The reason for the switch is with traditional steering (no full hydro) the steering will be forcing the axle from side to side. We could run a track-bar, but that will induce bump-steer (not good when you're hauling ass through the desert), and more suspension binding. A three link will have no binding, and the track-bar will keep the axle centered.
We're hoping to get the buggy put back together this weekend. Then progress will continue on the 4500. I'm definitely looking forward to getting back to work on the MJ!
NW99XJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Gresham, Or.
So a four link with a track bar will bind and have bump steer, but a three link with a track bar will not bind and not have bump steer?
Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning, but somehow that logic is lost on me....
TonkaYJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Milwaukie Or
AWESOME JOB! I am glad to see this I realy need to come up there and see it and you guys in person though WOW! I love the color also red Jeeps are always faster! hope to make it up there soon
Last edited:
- Location
- Williams AZ
I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused?
- Location
- San Diego
A four link without a trackbar will have bumpsteer unless you run full hydro steering, which they cannot due to class restrictions
A four link with a properly setup trackbar will not have bumpsteer with a steering box, but it will bind.
A 3 link with a trackbar will not bind or have bumpsteer
- Location
- Williams AZ
I still don't see why...I guess I need some 3d animation. :dunce:
Icemans
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Ridgefield, Washington
When you use a track bar with a double triangulated 4link. The 4 link is keeping the axle center while a track bar tends to pull the axle to one side while going from ride height to full droop. Because the track bar keeps its same length (its a solid tube) while moving further away from its frame attachment point. So with 14in of wheel travel it binds more then a rig with 10in of wheel travel.
same principal with the steering. Your drag link doesn't collapse or extend so whats it going to do to make up the difference. Its going to turn your steering wheel.
I hope that helps if not maybe someone can draw up that 3d model.
- Location
- Williams AZ
I fully understand that, now how is a three link any different? It seems to me that a three link keeps the axle located exactly as a four link, the missing link does allow for more articulation..... But how does that prevent bump steer?
To me it seems that track bar vs the steering is what causes bumpsteer. So how does eliminating an upper link change that if no other changes are made?
To me it seems that track bar vs the steering is what causes bumpsteer. So how does eliminating an upper link change that if no other changes are made?
Icemans
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Ridgefield, Washington
The difference between a three link and a double triangulated 4 link is the third link doesn't locate the axle side to side like the four link. It only controls your pinion angle. If you disconnect the tract bar in a three link it will move side to side. That takes the bind out of a three link with a track bar.
The trick to getting rid of the bump steer is to keep the track bar and the drag link at the same plain and same length so they move exactly at the same rate. Does that make sense? If its not done right you will still get bump steer there's no way around it.
Some guys say well it works on my XJ. It does but an xj that's based off of the factory suspension does not have enough angels on the links. So it will let the axle walk back and forth under the xj. That's why they require a track bar. Then you have to still keep the track bar and drag link on the same plain and try to keep it the same length. Guys battle this same battle all the time when lifting there rigs.
I hope this helps.
The trick to getting rid of the bump steer is to keep the track bar and the drag link at the same plain and same length so they move exactly at the same rate. Does that make sense? If its not done right you will still get bump steer there's no way around it.
Some guys say well it works on my XJ. It does but an xj that's based off of the factory suspension does not have enough angels on the links. So it will let the axle walk back and forth under the xj. That's why they require a track bar. Then you have to still keep the track bar and drag link on the same plain and try to keep it the same length. Guys battle this same battle all the time when lifting there rigs.
I hope this helps.
- Location
- San Diego
a triangulated 4 link will have bumpsteer because the triangulation in the links is going to move the axle pretty much straight up and down, whereas the drag link wants to move in an arc. in order for the axle to cycle, the drag link will turn the knuckles/steering box resulting in bumpsteer.
a trackbar, setup properly, will move the axle on the same arc as the drag link, hence them needing to be parallel and the same length... so the have the same arc.
running both a triangulated 4 link and a panhard creates bind because the 4 link is trying to move the axle in one direction, and the panhard is trying to move it side-side.
eliminating one upper prevents the link geometry from locating the axle, that is left up to the panhard.
one could run a 4 link+ panhard with no bind if the links are parallel and not triangulated.
- Location
- NE Texas
That's a Proper explanation
Icemans
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Ridgefield, Washington
