ATTN: Gun People

[Rev Den]

Whatever you get...

Get training...then

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE

That would be the only downside of a scattergun....you cannot go to one of the many indoor ranges and just shoot, depends on where you live, if you have a place to just shoot it, go for the scatter. I chose a .45 double-action semi-auto for home defense, a .32 for "carry" and a .44 mag for camping/hiking. I get to a range about once a month and run at least 50 rounds thru each of them...usually more, it get expensive, but I KNOW that I can handle each firearm anytime as needed.

PRACTICE.

Rev

 

[JeepFreak21]

Here's an experienced fellow's point of view.

Carry/use the biggest caliber you can reasonably control at a sustained rate of fire. Learned that from Massad Ayoob, who taught my instructors...and whom I hope to learn more from someday.

12ga is great for the home. As stated before, a proper lock negates the 'need' for a gun safe. However, when leaving for extended periods of time, it's nice to have something really secure to store it in. I've known a few people who had houses broken into, but guns were left alone because they were properly stored. I don't know about you, but if someone steals my TV I don't really have to worry about them committing a crime with it. Also, CONTRARY to what was stated, the 'racking the slide' is pure Hollywood. Sure it's a recognizable sound to a sober person, but someone under the influence may not react the way you want them to. To ME a racked slide means one less shell loaded in the shotty. One simple way to handle things is to assess where the family is, and get on the opposite side of the bed from the door, lay the shotgun across the bed, and STAY PUT. You may know your house, but your bed is going to be some of the best cover you have. Keep a phone next to the bed and get everyone to that side. Have extra shells handy on that side of the bed, along with a GOOD flashlight. Holler out that the police are on their way and to stay away from that room, or there'll be hell to pay. Does this make sense? STAY PUT and call the police. DEFEND yourself, not your property. Material things can be replaced, human lives can't.

As for hardware you don't have to worry about having a 'short' barrel if you stay put in your room. Shorties are for room to room clearing, which would only be required in a special situation...such as running to the kids' room to grab them. If you can assess that they're OK then watch the hall. Pistols work well for all situations. I prefer 12ga for home use because of the multiple projectiles and greater probability of hitting and area target.

ABOVE ALL I highly suggest receiving some training not only in marksmanship/tactics, but in state laws. Just because you may not be carrying concealed, you still need to know how your state views home defense. REALLY consider that just because someone enters your home, you are not obligated to blow them away. As I said earlier, material items can be replaced...so defend YOURSELF and FAMILY first. A crackhead with a DVD player in hand is typically not considered a threat to your safety. Understand that while there may not be any legal implications to a defense situation, there are certainly civil ones involved. In other words, you may not have charges filed against you, but the deceased may have left family behind who will likely sue you for civil damages. Having a full knowledge of these implications and a lawyer on retainer sure help you sleep better at night.

Take this all for what it's worth, as I can't make you follow everything I've stated. I am speaking from experience and will be happy to answer any questions you have, Billy. My door is open. I can go through my channels to put you in touch with folks in your area who can help. Lemme know and I'll give you a call sometime.

Very good point. One other point I'd like to discuss about the 12ga is that I currently live in an apartment. I'd hate for a any spray to go though the wall. I'd rather get a handgun and practice like hell if there's a chance I'd put the neighbors in danger.
Billy

 

[ECKSJAY]

Very good point. One other point I'd like to discuss about the 12ga is that I currently live in an apartment. I'd hate for a any spray to go though the wall. I'd rather get a handgun and practice like hell if there's a chance I'd put the neighbors in danger.
Billy

Shotguns have the luxury of using lighter size shot for less wall penetration. I use #4 Buck and have slugs in a sidesaddle mount 'just in case.' The #4 is a LOT less likely to penetrate a wall than the slugs or 00 Buck. Slugs are for the really big bugs. A 9mm will still go through the wall. Plenty of write-ups on the 'net from credible sources where they've done wall penetration research.

On that note, I tried to talk a buddy into helping me hang a 4'x8' sheet of 1/4" steel up across the hall from my bedroom door. Needless to say he declined... :rattle: Hey, I'm just looking out for the neighbors! :gag:

 

[8Mud]

Very good point. One other point I'd like to discuss about the 12ga is that I currently live in an apartment. I'd hate for a any spray to go though the wall. I'd rather get a handgun and practice like hell if there's a chance I'd put the neighbors in danger.
Billy

You have a much greatter chance of missing with a pistol and the round going through the wall, especially with jacketed ammo, than with a light shotgun round. Many automatics have occasional problems feeding soft or hollow point ammo. If you get an automatic, and use anything other than jacketed bullets, try a couple of hundred rounds, of whichever hollow or soft point you choose. I´ve rarely found an auto that will shoot everything reliably.
Contrary to popular belief, a shootgun doesn´t spread much inside of say 20-30 feet. A very low charge (skeet round) will be plenty at 10 feet and usualy makes a fairly neat 2-4 inch hole, depending on the choke.
When I go into a thicket looking for a wounded boar, I take old reliable a 44 special (not magnum) with semi wad cutter ammo, which will knock a pig down, usually without going through. Makes a rather large cratter in the side of the critter.
Like the guys said, practice, shotgun or a pistol, a pistol going off in a small dark room, will blind you and make you deaf, almost like a stun grenade. Pistol takes a lot of practice to become proficiant.
Chances are, without sufficient practice, even at a few feet, your gonna miss with a pistol. I was an instructor for pistol in the military, we would line up 20 guys at a time and let them fire at 21 feet and the vast majority of the beginners, missed a torso sized target, with the first clip of ammo. Pistols are hard to shot. A few guys in a hundred are naturals. None are very good, without extensive practice.

 

[Tarakian]

The 9mm will penetrate normal construction walls with no problem, and thin apartment walls are even less of a problem. Of course you could use frangible ammo, but it pretty expensive, and possibly still overpenetrate. A shotgun is a great home defense weapon, but it too will overpenetrate, use light weight shot (no magnum) and it will help with the overpenetration issue. Remember you are responsible for everything and everybody hit if you fire the weapon.

As far as gun safes, I got mine at wallyworld. I paid around 100 for it and it will hold 4 rifles/shotguns plus a couple of pistols. The brand name on it is Sentinel, and it can bolt to the floor and the wall and the lock is similiar to a vending machine lock. The lock also latches the door at the side, top and bottom. Living in an apartment, you may just want to bolt it to something heavy.

 

[vwkaferman]

go H&K or go unprepared...

I guess I'm not prepared with my model 1911 45, or my S&W 357, or my M1 Garand, or my shotgun. Oh well.

James

 

[Lincoln]

Time to get me on my high horse again.

I don't even like a 9mm being shot around me. I have one friend dead and another ended up with a nice hole in his leg from ricochet bullets. The first was being stupid (by himself, but I think it's a pretty good guess). According to the investigator there was two layers of sheet rock on the bullet before it hit him from the side right about the temple. The second was about 30 yards to the side of another friend and I. Bullet binged off a rock and pegged him in the leg. We never measured it exactly but it was over a 90 degree deflection. If you really feel the need to check out a 9 get an old side glass out of a car. Put some paper with a dot to aim at on it and hang it about 1 to 1.5' behind the window and hold the gun about 1' from the glass (eye protection necessary for the tards). After you shoot find where the bullet penetrates the paper. I've seen the bullet miss from 4" on the good side to 14" on the bad and that's just caused by the window. I don't understand everything behind it as much as I should, but the field results scare the shit out of me.

I would vote for a shotgun. Mossbergs can be bought at very resonable prices (http://www.mossberg.com/) and down to a 18.5" barrell. Personally I'm partial to the 24" flavor which I really like hunting and it's still a really short gun. Check the state laws on the length. I would just load it with some normal bird shot (BB to 4 shot) and a cylinder bore choke (straight though). At five yards it would cover the chest of a good size man and at 40 yards it would cover their body with bb's. Even at that distance if they're not wearing some heafty leather they will be hurting if not blind also. It would be safer in an apartment setting than most also and won't penetrate two layers of sheet rock. That story another time.

Again on the safety and practice. I got to see the friend aboves brains splattered all over the wall, another have the back of his head blown off by his brother in a hunting accident (followed the target right to him), and the nice leg wound. None I would recommend to anyone. Learn your gun and pratice safe handling, the shooting accuracy will flow right into those. I could see most people missing there target or shooting themselves just because of the rush of being scared. There are no start overs once the trigger is pulled. There are trap ranges all over the country and are pretty cheap to go and shoot at, around here they are less than the pistol ranges. Shoot a lot and concentrate more on safety and shooting.

Personally I have no desire to ever kill anyone. I don't allow loaded guns in my house or cars either. I can replace shit but I don't want to have to clean blood off the floor. Someone would have to shake me up pretty bad for me to ever pull my gun. An even then I don't see any suffering in death. Breaking a bat on someone's extremedy's sounds a lot better.

Last of my long rant and Beez claimed it was because I was in Idaho. The only people that need concealed weapons are drug dealers. I wear my pistols on my hip and my long guns are always in site. The only times there is a round in the chamber is when I'm hunting in the long guns and I never holster my pistols with a round in the chamber.

Just to let you know it's really me, here is a professional. At least he said so:
http://www.skoopy.com/show2.php?id=1141&type=VID

 

[8Mud]

My home defense weapon, is a Remington 1100 (auto´s have less recoil), loaded with progressively lethal ammo. 18" inch slug barrel, with a tube extension, so it holds 8 rounds and a homemade mount for my 8" stainless M-16 bayonet, that mounts on the extended tube. The bayonet is shaving sharp. Shoot, cut or club, I beleive in having options. And a H&K P-7 (8) 9 MM, as a back up (fits nicely in a pocket, with an extry clip). I also have two, twenty round ammo belts for the shotgun handy, over the shoulder, under the arm, style. Don´t want to run out of ammo if the fight, turns into a route and moves to the street.
A 100 pound Wiemeraner (that likes to bite) and some extra outside lighting and a couple of outside motion detectors that set off a chime in the house. A Jack Russel in the house as a back up, a fearless, noisey, ankle bitter. I trained her, to grab onto a shoe or cuff and hold on, she thinks she is a pit bull.

 

[theslacker]

How about instead of buying a gun, you just move to Canada. It really is nice up here.

 

[8Mud]

How about instead of buying a gun, you just move to Canada. It really is nice up here.

Few places in the world are as civilized as Germany. Even Canada.
But on the flip side of that coin, believing your own press and failing to be prepared, is most ways, just wishfull thinking.
Even in Canada (read most any psych book), 3 % of the population are born with a screw loose and are dangerous.
Hopefully, you will live out your life, without having to deal with a psycho. But they are sure enough out there. And have a tendancy to be even bolder, when the chances of a summary confrontation, is lower. Hopefully the wolf, will attack some other sheep. And you can live out your life, believing guns are the problem.

 

[5-90]

Y'ask me, the best for home defence is either a 12 gage (for full-sized individuals) or .410 (for the smaller package) in pump with an extended magazine and a FULL SHOULDER STOCK! Don't bother with the pistol grip, unless you really know what you're about (I've been shooting for about 25 years, and instructing for 17 or so, and I still don't like pistol grips...)

Load with a "skeet" or "light" load and #4 buckshot - this maximises terminal ballistics within the victim while reducing the hazzard of overpentration and collateral damage.

Another nice thing about pumpguns is that they are dirt-simple and nearly idiot-proof.

Most indoor ranges - even here in CA - will let you use a shotgun with #0 or smaller buckshot (sometimes #2 or smaller.) Shotgun gages and shot sizes are like wire gages - bigger numbers equals smaller wires. Bigger numbers equals smaller barrels/pellets.

While a "cylinder" bore will work well with the #4 buck, get a "Modified Cylinder" if you have the option - a slight choke will still pass a slug safely but puts more "steel on target" with shot. The slight spread you'll gain with the shot also helps offset the effect of nerves.

For personal defence, I consider the 9mm next to useless. Remember that the idea behind shooting someone is to STOP them - and the 9mm doesn't have much of a track record for that. It tends to fully penetrate the victim, which results in a waste of energy.

However, the .357 with hollowpoints or softtips tends to actually stop within the body, which means that the energy from the projectile is fully transferred to the target, which increases terminal effect and reduces the possibility of collateral damage. A .357 from Smith & Wesson with the N-frame is good, and the Rugers aren't bad as well. Another advantage of the .357 is that it will acecpt .38 Special, which allows you to get used to shooting the thing, then transfer up to a full-power load - and once you are used to the .357, you can practise with the .38 and save a bundle on target ammo.

The .44 Magnum/Special will also fulfil a similar purpose, but most women find shooting the .44 Magnum objectionable - unless she's an enthustiast. Most women who have transitioned from the .38 to the .357 have few - if any - complaints.

However, I've been shooting .45ACP out of variations of the M1911/1991 Government Model so long I just can't switch to anything else comfortably (I'm willing to shoot anything, but you always go home after a while...) The .40S&W isn't bad, but .45 ammo is usually cheaper, and the GM is the easiest gun going to find replacement and upgrade parts for - and you can get a couple variations of upper half in .22 rimfire for practise or plinking. Most people think the .45 has excessive recoil, but the advantage of the blowback action is that a large part of the recoil energy is used up in cycling the action. It is possible to add weight and/or a stiffer spring to reduce felt recoil to nearly nothing.

Also, a good .22 revolver isn't a bad thing for personal defence - I can think of several centrefire calibres I'd rather be shot with before a .22. And, .22 rimfire ammo (usually found in Long Rifle") is quite inexpensive and easy to find. The .22 makes a good trainer, can be had fairly cheap, and works well on four-legged vermin as well. I'd not depend upon a .22 if I had the option to use something else, but if you do your job putting the bullet where it belongs, it will do its job stopping the bad guy. If you decide to get a .22 long gun, I highly recomment the Ruger 10/22 - it's a great basic carbine and there are a boatload of upgrades for it.

If you have any more specific questions, I'd be most pleased to help you! I've been teaching home defence and personal defence for a number of years, and I've not had any complaints so far...

5-90

 

[8Mud]

Y'ask me, the best for home defence is either a 12 gage (for full-sized individuals) or .410 (for the smaller package) in pump with an extended magazine and a FULL SHOULDER STOCK! Don't bother with the pistol grip, unless you really know what you're about (I've been shooting for about 25 years, and instructing for 17 or so, and I still don't like pistol grips...)

Load with a "skeet" or "light" load and #4 buckshot - this maximises terminal ballistics within the victim while reducing the hazzard of overpentration and collateral damage.

Another nice thing about pumpguns is that they are dirt-simple and nearly idiot-proof.

Most indoor ranges - even here in CA - will let you use a shotgun with #0 or smaller buckshot (sometimes #2 or smaller.) Shotgun gages and shot sizes are like wire gages - bigger numbers equals smaller wires. Bigger numbers equals smaller barrels/pellets.

While a "cylinder" bore will work well with the #4 buck, get a "Modified Cylinder" if you have the option - a slight choke will still pass a slug safely but puts more "steel on target" with shot. The slight spread you'll gain with the shot also helps offset the effect of nerves.

For personal defence, I consider the 9mm next to useless. Remember that the idea behind shooting someone is to STOP them - and the 9mm doesn't have much of a track record for that. It tends to fully penetrate the victim, which results in a waste of energy.

However, the .357 with hollowpoints or softtips tends to actually stop within the body, which means that the energy from the projectile is fully transferred to the target, which increases terminal effect and reduces the possibility of collateral damage. A .357 from Smith & Wesson with the N-frame is good, and the Rugers aren't bad as well. Another advantage of the .357 is that it will acecpt .38 Special, which allows you to get used to shooting the thing, then transfer up to a full-power load - and once you are used to the .357, you can practise with the .38 and save a bundle on target ammo.

The .44 Magnum/Special will also fulfil a similar purpose, but most women find shooting the .44 Magnum objectionable - unless she's an enthustiast. Most women who have transitioned from the .38 to the .357 have few - if any - complaints.

However, I've been shooting .45ACP out of variations of the M1911/1991 Government Model so long I just can't switch to anything else comfortably (I'm willing to shoot anything, but you always go home after a while...) The .40S&W isn't bad, but .45 ammo is usually cheaper, and the GM is the easiest gun going to find replacement and upgrade parts for - and you can get a couple variations of upper half in .22 rimfire for practise or plinking. Most people think the .45 has excessive recoil, but the advantage of the blowback action is that a large part of the recoil energy is used up in cycling the action. It is possible to add weight and/or a stiffer spring to reduce felt recoil to nearly nothing.

Also, a good .22 revolver isn't a bad thing for personal defence - I can think of several centrefire calibres I'd rather be shot with before a .22. And, .22 rimfire ammo (usually found in Long Rifle") is quite inexpensive and easy to find. The .22 makes a good trainer, can be had fairly cheap, and works well on four-legged vermin as well. I'd not depend upon a .22 if I had the option to use something else, but if you do your job putting the bullet where it belongs, it will do its job stopping the bad guy. If you decide to get a .22 long gun, I highly recomment the Ruger 10/22 - it's a great basic carbine and there are a boatload of upgrades for it.

If you have any more specific questions, I'd be most pleased to help you! I've been teaching home defence and personal defence for a number of years, and I've not had any complaints so far...

5-90

Murphy´s law tells me, that if you properly leave the chamber empty (I don´t care what you say about the safety) on a pump gun. Your gonna go nuts trying to cylce a round into the chamber, before you relize you have to pull the trigger (with the bolt forword) or work the bolt release button.
In the middle of the night, when the brain is half asleep and the hormones are running, remembering to pull the trigger (or hit the release button) before trying to pump the slide (and/or release the safety) is really iffy. I´ve seen untold guys forget the safety or the bolt release while hunting.
They make a plastic bolt safety, if your a nervous type, a red plastic tab that fits between the bolt and the chamber (for auto´s), with a large plastic streamer hanging out as a pull cord. I can cycle my auto, almost as fast as I can cycle a pump.
IMO, an auto loading shotgun, with chamber empty, bolt to the front, safety off and the bolt lock disabled, is just about the most idiot proof setup. A pumpgun with the chamber filled, bolt forword and the safety safe, is probably second. A pump gun, with the chamber empty, bolt to the front and the trigger cocked, is gonna require some brain work in an emergancy (especially with the safety safe), as will chamber empty and the bolt locked to the rear, with the safety on, with an auto loader.
Whatever you decide upon, practice, practice practice.

 

[JeepFreak21]

Thanks for all the help guys. I really learned a few things.
Billy

 

[Sarge]

On a shotgun you can figure the shot will spread roughly one inch per foot. Of course this depends on the choke but for most of what you buy over the counter this is close to true.

There are rounds out there for revolvers and autos that drop the wall penetration way down. One example being the Glaser Safety slugs. Little blue tip which comes apart on impact and then it's like a little shotgun. Doesn't go thru walls but hurts the bad guy major.

Sarge

 

[RichP]

The other advantage of a pump gun is sound, nothing else sounds like a pump being cycled and the sound alone will often send an intruder back out much faster then they came in which is really the goal. If you go with a 12ga get the shortest barrel they have in the model. Makes maneuvering around corners much easier if you don't have a 30" steel pipe leading you.
The key though is practice practice practice, to the point that you can load, chamber and fire without having to even look at the weapon, practice this blindfolded and use muscle memory then increase speed. Also lean how to butt stroke with it, practice on one of those kids blow up boxing dummies to get the moves down then you can hang a large pillow stuffed with some dense items to figure out how much power you need. You want one with a wooden stock for this if you go the shotgun route.
Pistols take alot to master so it also depends on how much effort you want to put into it. As far as a handgun goes, .45 is my choice too, wifes is a .38 snubby with hollow base wad cutters loaded backwards, low power load but massive expansion and transfer of energy.

 

[Grifter144]

hey it appears that most of the guys on here got their sh+t straight, heres my two cents....
1)pick your weapon and KNOW your weapon, practice is really important, range time is always good but make it vary, use blindfolds, practice magazine drops and reloads...run drills
2) think about in house drills and walk/run through them at combat pace..w/yer family if you got one. map out yer house, take notice of what has standoff potential type cover, avenues of escape etc...in the army we did something called a "shoothouse" it enabled us to practice our actions entering and inside a building, i frimly believe that training saved me more than once...
3)always know and see what you are pointing at, know the target. If you have to,turn the light on in the room when he/she comes in, hopefully it catches them off guard, not you..
4)know the local law in yer area, some states require that the homeowner use every possible chance of retreat. if yer like me that means i'm "retreating" through the front door or in the direction of attack...

my favorite rule. the best defense is a good offense. HTH
Maier

oh yea stay away from 9mm. it failed me and it will fail you, i also know a local cop whose duty issue nine was emtpy(12rds) by the time the attacker with a knife completed his 25 foot charge and fell at the officers feet. note: all rounds hit the attacker with in a 4 inch square dead center of his chest and exited out the back....

 

[biscuitboy87]

You have alot of good advise to consider here.
I moved from apartments awhile ago and look for shared housing now...of course finding a sane roommate was a stretch...but it can be done.
Best first line of defense is a dog....even one of those little yappy POS's. Noise is an intruders enemy. If they're crazy enough to ignore the dogs follow above info. (I know you're in an apt. so a dog may not be a good idea unless they allow pets)
I have two Schutzhund (german sheperd) who would just as happily eat a stranger as fetch a ball, and an ratdog mutt who is sweet and loves to kill boomers (wood rats). All three dogs would take a bullet for me. Grandpas shot gun backs up the dogs. If things get real hairy, there's "other". I don't like guns as weapons (I love them as tools), and I don't hunt defenseless animals (with a gun), but I truley believe in self defense an our right to bare arms. Get the training you need and be safe. IMHO
best luck

 

[dmillion]

One example being the Glaser Safety slugs.

Plus, won't that sound great if you ever end up in court? "Yes, your honor, I was being as safe as I could be. I even shot him with a Safety Slug!"

 

[ECKSJAY]

On a shotgun you can figure the shot will spread roughly one inch per foot.
Sarge

Correction, Sarge... 1" per YARD of travel.

 

[Sarge]

Hell, it's been a long time since that class!

Sarge