who ya voting for?

[steve01XJ]

What does Bush have to show for his 4 yrs? A liberated Iraq, a liberated Afghanistan, a scrambled Al Qaeda, keeping this country rather stable after the cowardly attacks on 9/11, he's had pretty good approval ratings, even with all the hoopla about ANG and Iraq. Besides, I think Bush's one instance of being AWOL is a much better track record than betraying your fellow sailors and soldiers who are still fighting by coming home after only 2 months with 3 Purple Hearts that didn't even require him to take a day off and recover, and then accusing them of all kinds of horrible acts and protesting against what they are over there still dying for.[/QUOTE]

A liberated Iraq?? You must be kidding. Yes Saddam is gone, but now three factions are now fighting Americans for control of the country. A liberated Afghanistan? Maybe to some degree, but their leader is still surrounded by armed guards around the clock. Doesn't really speak well to the "stability" we have created there either. As a matter of fact, the oil price situation was more stable before the invasions than it is now. As for Al Qaeda.... well, they may be scrambled a bit, but they are still as big if not a bigger threat than they were before. Just think if we had not invaded Iraq and instead put even a small fraction of those resources into tracking down Osama Bin Forgotten - or jobs for Americans (who don't work for Halliburton) for that matter.

As for the AWOL and swift boat stuff - who cares. This should be about the issues. The world is a more dangerous place today than it was four years ago, and our economy is worse than it was four years ago. And wheeling doesn't much come into play as a voting issue for me if it costs me $2.25 a gallon for gas and I can't afford to take a trip to Moab anyway.

 

[Gridikal]

Hmm well personally, I think the FAR left can just hop in their time machine and go back to 9/10/01 and stay there for all I care. The FAR right should conceed that there is more to matters than just terrorism. If we lose the economy while fighting terrorism, ( which I think is a must- I'd rather fight them oversees rather than in my back yard) then the attacks on 9/11 have succeeded. They wanted to topple our economy while killing as many people as possible. For all we know they are sitting over there laughing at us because were divided on the issue of fighting them- meanwhile they continue doing what they do best- I think there is no perfect answer. As for everyone in between the extremes, I wonder if we would have done if we had the same intel as the guy sitting in the oval office. -but its the presidents job to justify what he has done- I dont doubt him because as a civiliian, I dont have all the info- he just needs to work on proving it a little better is all.

 

[Economos]

Besides, I think Bush's one instance of being AWOL is a much better track record than betraying your fellow sailors and soldiers who are still fighting by coming home after only 2 months with 3 Purple Hearts that didn't even require him to take a day off and recover, and then accusing them of all kinds of horrible acts and protesting against what they are over there still dying for.

Kerry didn't protest the sacrifices of the soldiers in Vietnam; he protested the policies in which the war was being run by and he criticised the bureaucrats who were calling the shots from their airconditioned offices back in DC while good men died in their wake. And if you don't think there were atrocious acts committed during Vietnam, go research the Mei Lei Massacre.

 

[Urban Redneck]

A liberated Afghanistan? Maybe to some degree, but their leader is still surrounded by armed guards around the clock. Doesn't really speak well to the "stability" we have created there either.

So, let me get this right. Kerry gave up his Secret Service detail? NO? Or since Bush and Kerry both have Secret Service details, with full auto arms, that America is unstable? Because the Mayor of every major city has armed bodyguards, is every city in America unstable? Name me one Head of State of any country that doesn't have an armed detail, around the clock. Go back into your bomb shelter, turn on Air America and watch out for the black helicopters. Oh wait, I forgot...Air America doesn't have any more stations carrying it, oh, maybe 1.

 

[Beezil]

naxja is voting for bush by 73%....

I fig'erd it'd be 81 percent.

 

[Osprey413]

Well, look at the national polls. It is almost 50-50, and think of all the silent Kerry voters. I don't think that there are any silent Bush voters, because they never know when to shut up.

 

[Urban Redneck]

Well, look at the national polls. It is almost 50-50, and think of all the silent Kerry voters. I don't think that there are any silent Bush voters, because they never know when to shut up.

Yeah, the "silent" Kerry voters...like in Chicago. Don't matter if you're dead, you still vote Demo-crap-tic...

 

[rockwerks]

Well, look at the national polls. It is almost 50-50, and think of all the silent Kerry voters. I don't think that there are any silent Bush voters, because they never know when to shut up.

Well the electorial college projection from rassmussen report (who has not been wrong on an ellection) has bush with 321 electorial votes and kerry at 200.

remember the electorial is what matters. if a higher percentage of popular vote goes to one candidate the he receives all the votes for that state. right now Bush owns all the major swing states.

Actually it is proven in past elections that the majority of people who actually answer the questions when called are liberal and democrat. Republicans have better things to do than answer polls

 

[Ramsey]

Republicans have better things to do than answer polls

like enjoy the outdoors before the liberals take away that too

 

[Yucca-Man]

Kerry didn't protest the sacrifices of the soldiers in Vietnam; he protested the policies in which the war was being run by and he criticised the bureaucrats who were calling the shots from their airconditioned offices back in DC while good men died in their wake. And if you don't think there were atrocious acts committed during Vietnam, go research the Mei Lei Massacre.

You sure you want to stand with that answer?

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation.

Of course, many of those stories are just that...stories. Several of the "veterans" did not serve, or if they served it was other than in Vietnam. Others who testified and were in-country were in support roles far from the action, including one who recently swore an affidavit that his "testimony" was coerced and fake. No, John Kerry engineered his return trip home, and after doing so he spit in the faces of Americans who were and who had served honorably by selling them out to the North Vietnamese propaganda machine. Of course, he also MET with the North Vietnamese at a time when he was still reportable to the Naval Reserves and in doing so broke several US laws...but that's still no problem for Kerry apologists, is it?

Edited to add time and place of his testimony so we can pin him to a statement at a specific juncture in the space-time continuum...

 

[choppedzj]

sounds great guys. I got out of the Navy (seabee's) last october because I wanted to be able to be with my wife who I just married. I'm 25 and spent 6 years in the service. I just got a letter a couple of weeks ago and it was a questionnare about possibly calling me up in Jan 05 and how I felt about it. Well, I think it really (your choice of prfanity) sucks! I volunteered to serve my country against enemies foriegn and domestic. But, not for money. I can understand going after O'sama in afghanistan, but we had a huge detour by going to Iraq. I heard someone point out it's like a cop getting a call about a shooting in progress and then seeing a car double parked and going and writing a ticket. I may have butchered that a little but hopefully you got it. I was so ate up when I was in that I would've thought anyone deserved to get smoked has the gov't said it so. Now, I have lost that mentality and think this is pure scandal and crap. It comes down to which is the lesser evil. My wife is heart broken about the possibility of me going over. I don't want to make Bush any more rich nor do I want to let my fellow service men down. Poor decisions have lost over a thousand men and women for what?? Military assets should not be expended on a person's ambition to become more rich. My life is worth more than that. Other service men and women's lives are worth more than that. My buddies off Air Det were bragging when they returned from Iraq in spring of this year. They have it all backwards. They were just looking forward to the excitement of combat and war. I was there to. But not anymore. I know I've babbled alot but I hope that you don't vote thinking to yourself, a thousand dead aint that bad. If you haven't served and you think something like that. May God have mercy upon your soul. Because I won't. I support our members of the service. But, I don't support Bush and his freaking hidden agenda killing our service men and women.
God bless you all

 

[Darky]

Economos: I know there were bad things happeneing, I'm not disputing that. What I said was that accusing everyone over there fighting and dying of committing crimes like those is wrong. I know not everyone was a good well behaved soldier or Marine. But I also know that not everyone, in fact I'd say not even a majority were doing the things he spoke of. If you read the first writeup for his Silver Star it sounds very much like he himself chased down and shot a fleeing enemy in the back. But then he had it rewritten not once but twice to get rid of the "yucky" stuff that could make him look bad. If people want to read some stuff about Kerry, his past, and his present, check out this site. Its got some cool info. Yes it is partisan but if you think they'd be able to get away with making up every bit of info there, you're delusional.

 

[Yucca-Man]

They gave yo ua questionnaire asking if you wanted to come back? crap - you've still got two obligated years...you are theirs if they want you, questionnaire or not. If I follow your ramblings, you are trying to say that the entire Iraq war was really just a way of fulfilling a "hidden Bush agenda" to kill troops? Ummm...yeah.

 

[choppedzj]

i think your igonorance proceeds you. A hidden agenda to suck the oil right out of Iraq and for Bush to capitalize on it. So please read more in depth. Did you serve. Would you die for oil. Do you meet the weight and height requirements to even enlist.

 

[Glenn B]

They gave yo ua questionnaire asking if you wanted to come back? crap - you've still got two obligated years...you are theirs if they want you, questionnaire or not. If I follow your ramblings, you are trying to say that the entire Iraq war was really just a way of fulfilling a "hidden Bush agenda" to kill troops? Ummm...yeah.

That is how I read it too. Unfortunate outlook.

A person enlists, and obligates themselves for a number of years, some active, some subject to recall. That is just the way it works, and is absolutely no surprise. If one is subject to recall to active duty, I wish you the best of luck, but stand tall and do what you agreed to do. Be the best you can and look out for your fellow soldiers, sailors, marines.... even airmen.

You have a duty to do, and a specific job. As much as that may suck, politics is not part of that.

 

[Glenn B]

i think your igonorance proceeds you. A hidden agenda to suck the oil right out of Iraq and for Bush to capitalize on it. So please read more in depth. Did you serve. Would you die for oil. Do you meet the weight and height requirements to even enlist.

Lets stay civil. No sense getting this thread nuked with personal insults.

 

[choppedzj]

Thankyou glen, I did enlist and yes I will stand tall. I just wish it was for a better cause. I like the order you put the branches in. Pretty comical. I'll go to Iraq for what I think is write to do and for my obligation, but I'll always have that thought of what I'm there to do. Iraqi elections are in Jan 05, I think this is why we're going.

 

[Darky]

chopped: Yucca-Man did serve. He was in the Marine Corps. If you wanna know how I knew that its in his interests and on his webpage. I still don't see how Bush is getting rich off Iraq. The one who hadties with Halliburton is Cheney. He was their CEO but no longer stands to benefit in anyway from their profits or lack thereof.
Your ignorance precedes you, choppedzj. What the saying means is your ignorance is so great, it arrives ahead of you. Hence precedes, not proceeds. And as Yucca said, you still have 2 more years of obligated service. Read your contract. Its 8 yrs obligated service. I've known plenty of buddies get caught by stop loss and have to stay in longer. I've known some who got out and were called back in. Were they peeved? Yes, but they did their jobs. You should know this, and so should your wife. My wife has had the details explained to her and she supports me and knows I may have to go away. She wouldn't like it but she accepts that's the sacrifice you make. And I think its ironic that a sailor is questioning a retired Marine as to whther he meets the weight requirements...I've known some chunky sailors.

 

[Darky]

ps, good luck if you do end up havin to go tho.

 

[choppedzj]

thanks, and yes we have some pretty heavy fellas. It's my opinion as to what i think is going on over there. If you go and I do as well maybe we'll both see up highway 8 the pipes being driven in to pump the oil out. I apologize for putting a retired marine down. But that's 20 years of brainwashing talking to me!!