Uttermost Off Road

[westsacxj]

Hi. I'm a white guy who likes to go wheeling with other guys of similar whiteness. I've started a club of guys who are similarly white who like to go wheeling and talk about how good it is to be white.

Oh, and you other guys who aren't quite so white can come along too if you want.

HEY!! what do you think this is? A site for jeepers to find other people who might be interested also?




Geez. the nerve of some people

sorry for the double post

 

[WVXJ]

Hi. I'm a white guy who likes to go wheeling with other guys of similar whiteness. I've started a club of guys who are similarly white who like to go wheeling and talk about how good it is to be white.

Oh, and you other guys who aren't quite so white can come along too if you want.

---------------That is hilarious, LMAO!!!

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Hi. I'm a white guy who likes to go wheeling with other guys of similar whiteness. I've started a club of guys who are similarly white who like to go wheeling and talk about how good it is to be white.

Oh, and you other guys who aren't quite so white can come along too if you want.

---------------That is hilarious, LMAO!!!

I can make you white, too. It's fun and its good for you and it would make me really really happy (plus, it'll put me in good with my boss).

 

[ECKSJAY]

I can make you white, too. It's fun and its good for you and it would make me really really happy (plus, it'll put me in good with my boss).

Why don't you say how and why you do it in novel form and claim you're just putting the info out there for anyone interested in becoming white?

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Why don't you say how and why you do it in novel form and claim you're just putting the info out there for anyone interested in becoming white?

I just wanna have fun wheeling. Why are you picking on me? :bawl:

 

[goodburbon]

isn't there an ancient book you can cite?

"The Art of White" perhaps?

I have an off white friend.....will it be much of a transition for him?

 

[XJ Dreamin']

isn't there an ancient book you can cite?

"The Art of White" perhaps?

I have an off white friend.....will it be much of a transition for him?

Well, it involves some flaying. A good skinning manual is advisable.

 

[creeperjeep]

now thats funny

 

[ECKSJAY]

I just wanna have fun wheeling. Why are you picking on me? :bawl:

If you don't care, don't post.

:jester:

 

[XJ Dreamin']

If you don't care, don't post.

:jester:

You're still picking on me! :bawl: :bawl:

 

[goodburbon]

quit being such a self hating jew:shiver:

 

[XJ Dreamin']

now thats funny

A 3/4hp angle grinder is also effective

 

[XJ Dreamin']

quit being such a self hating jew:shiver:

I love me. I'm soooo white :smootch:











Those smilies could be a little whiter, though.

 

[IXNAYXJ]

Why don't you say how and why you do it in novel form and claim you're just putting the info out there for anyone interested in becoming white?

Read EVERY word of this, and it will all be clear. VERY CLEAR. Straight forward.

Thanks... that is virtually EXACTLY what my wife and I said, yet today we are fully immersed in serving God in and out of church.

What do you think made the difference in our lives?

Also, I am definately not dodging your question. I assumed that you were coming at the discussion from a point of either hatred toward God, or agnosticism toward God, and I was correct in my assumption, hence my remark. Just like you think that you understand me, I think that I understand you -- problem is, I've been where you are, but you have yet to turn the corner that I turned... Get it?

Again, I ask, what was it that made the difference ultimately in our lives? What brought us TO God when we had decided very firmly that we would never so much as think of God again?

The answer to that question is just like I said above... God showed that He was both REAL and in control. He showed me in a number of ways that loosing a son was a small price to pay for gaining a life, and in any case, after over 20 years of advanced theological study, I have now come to a couple conclusions about God, faith, God's desire to build relationships, and the absolute goodness, love, and grace of God -- ALL THE TIME -- even when it doesn't seem so to us, from our perspective.

How about this biblical pasage by another hurting dad?

2 Samuel 12:13-31 (ESV) David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. [14] Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die."

[15] Then Nathan went to his house.And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick.

[16] David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. [17] And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them.

[18] On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm."

[19] But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" They said, "He is dead."

[20] Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.

[21] Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food."

[22] He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'

[23] But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."
​

Note that King David, even though he sinned against God with Bathsheba, was called "A man after God's own heart..."

Acts 13:22 (ESV) And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, 'I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.'
​

I take great comfort in knowing that God, through the words of King David, a man after God's own heart, said that I could go to where my son now is... That is the work of a good and gracious God, not the God I thought I knew (and perhaps the one you think you know) -- a capricious evil God. God is not evil. "He works all things out together for good for those who are called according to His purpose..." Perhaps this dialog is your "call." God does things through other humans -- that is His way. Test Him as I did and see if He is real. You might be VERY suprised as I (and my wife) was.

Hello All,

Sorry for the break I was off line for the weekend and had a hard time getting on this morning. I am happy to see such a response to my post, some good some bad, however alot and I thank you. In Ecclesiastes 3:11 it says, " He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in YOUR hearts, except noone can find out the work that God does from beginning to end". This PAssage from the old Testament tells us that God created us and everyone one of else has a deep seated compulsive drive to transcend morality and to know the truth of the World. Now I had that same desire to find out the truth, like many of you. I looked hi and low and as a veteran I had the opportunity to search for that truth in many different places. Many philosophers filled my head as well as evolutionists. Through all of this I found that every walk of life puts Faith in something. The evelutionist puts his faith in the fact that an atom smaller than what the naked eye can see at one point exploded and created by chance a universe as large as this one, (huge leap of faith). After studying this I came to the conclusion that if that could happen than if lightning struck a tree than all of the splinters would fall to the ground and make a house, wouldn't that be nice. Hey no motgage just buy a tree on an acre and connect a lightning rod to it and just wait, BOOM!! That doesn't work.
My point is is this, we are not evolved we are created, your anscestor is not Curious George it is Adam and Eve and you were created in God's image and He gave you His likeness and characteristics. Your anscestors bought sin into this World because of their disobedience and that sin is passed onto YOU. God punished for that sin just like you would punish your children for their disobedience, only His was harsher because He is a just cause and does not bend and cannot be around sin. You on the other hand as parent are not just and can change on how you punish, God will not. So because of this Sin God gave prophetic messages in the old testament about the remission of Sin that was to come. When that remission of Sin came it was in the form of a Virgin concieved man named Jesus this prophecy can be found in Genesis 3:15 when God said their will be enmity between your seed Satan (serpent) and her seedn ( Jesus). No other account in history has the woman produced the seed man has the seed woman has the egg. The book of Genesis is important to not only Christians but also to Jews and Muslims. In the Bible, Toarh and Koran says that sin can only be washed away by the blood of a sinless creature. Before Jesus there was no sinless man only animals. When Jesus came as the sinless lamb He put himself on the cross to pay for our sins. It took one sin to seperate us from God and it took one sacrificial remision by God's Son to reunite us with God. Now in the Book of John chapter 3 Jesus tells a Pharisee (Jewish Scholar), named Nicademus that the only way to see the Kingdom of heaven is to be born again. This baffled Nicademus as it did many others, He asked how can I reenter the womb of my mother. What Jesus meant by this is this unless you put your Faith into what the Son of God was about to do on the cross for YOUR SIN READER and apply it your life and ask forgiveness for you sin and be born again spiritually into this new covenant and allow the Son of God to use His Blood to wash away your sin like soap and start living a new life for Him than you will nto see the Kingdom of Heaven which was created for you. Hell was not created for you it was created for Satan and he tempted our ancestors so he could take Gods creation down with Him. The Sin is a trait passed on through the genetics from our earthly parents from Adam and Eve. Revelations 3:20 Jesus says" Behold I stand at the door and knock, if you open the door I will come into you and sup". In Jewish tradition supper was very honorable and it was a time of meaningful encounter and Jesus is telling us in this passage that we have to open the door to our lives and allow Him without hesitation to be part of you and take control of you life. Now I know this sounds weird, I danced with Satan for 24 years and allowing somebody I cannot see take control of my life sounded crazy to me. However, I came to the realization that after death my sould was going somewhere for eternity, so I let go of the worldly reality and trusted in Jesus and my life is so much different now. I know their are " un " christians out there who only talk about Jesus on Sunday and talk about Satan the rest of the week. But Christian means Christ like, and in order for you to be Christ like you have to believe without a shadow of a doubt the Jesus Christ is Lord and He died for your sins just like you know without a shadow of a doubt you mom gave birth to you.
You cannot refute the historical record of the man named Jesus, He is in all of world history including the Bible and every other historical document of the time. The crucifiction is in Jewish History as well as Roman. The empty tomb and the missing body is not only a Christian historical record it is also a Jewish record a Roman record. The Jews did not steal the body and either did the Romans because if they did they would have presented it as evidence to squash the Christian account of the resurrection. The disciples did not take it if they did they would have to sneak past the Roman legion, fat chance of that happening and than sneak past the Jewish guards at the entrance of the tomb. Roll back a 2 ton stone take the body, fold the burial scarfs nice and neatly and then sneak past all of those people again with stinking 3day old corpse. No He rose from the dead. I know you are thinking he never died. Nobody survived the Roman execution of crucifiction if they did the soldiers involved would have been crucified, so they made sure he was dead. The Bible says He was beaten beyond recognition and that was all for you. John 3:16 For God so Loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son and Whoever (You) believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son to condemn the World but that through Him the World may be saved.
Now you must ask yourself what have you put your Faith in, and what is you idea of heaven which the World gets from the Bible. If you can get your idea about Heaven from the Bible, why not look for how to get there in the Bible. If you do not believe in Heaven, I am sorry to tell you this one day YOU will die and live in eternity somewhere. What is it going to be Heaven or Hell???? You Decide!!! John 14:6 Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me". You cannot say Jesus was a Good man but lied about who He is, that is not a good man. You cannot have your cake and eat it to. You either believe in God and His Son Jesus Christ or not. Jesus says I would rather you be Hot or Cold, because if you are a Lukewarm Christian than I will Puke you out of my mouth Revelations 3:16. Nor is there Salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we should be saved." Acts 4:12

Just to think this all started because I was looking for some people to go 4 wheeling with. I prayed that I would seize every opportunity to let people know what Jesus did for them. Acts 1:8 " But You Shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses of Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria and to the UTTERMOST ENDS OF THE EARTH. I am not Bastardizing Christianity I am doing the Fathers will which in Matthew 24:14 tells me to preach the Gospel (Good News of Jesus Christ) to all the World, which all of you a part of. Just like Jack Nicholson said, "You can't handle the Truth", but Jesus said, "the Truth shall set you free. I am honored to be persecuted in the Name of Jesus Christ. <>< So anybody want to go 4 wheeling? Also read Romans 10:9-13, Romans 6:23 Romans 8:1-8

First, of course I do -- and WILLINGLY. You claim to be able to know how to live a great life apart from a study of religion and the Bible. I would ask you to please explain how it is that you have come to know what a good life IS apart from religious morality. I think that you would have a VERY difficult time explaining that, and here's why.

Even though YOU PERSONALLY do not hold to the tenets of the Bible and the Christian faith, you live in a land that has been founded on those principles for generations, if not centuries! Many of our customs, mannerisms, cultural norms, etc., that you learned from observing society at work are based in the exact principles that you claim to hate. You just cannot escape the fact that we, here in America, are a culture based in the Judeo-Christian worldview. Almost every aspect of our nation is from these principles. The names of our towns are biblical names. The names of our children are biblical names. That is fact, and it cannot be so easily set aside. So, more than you know, and more than you like, you are already operating in a biblical workdview. Of course, you are also trying to distance yourself FROM that worldview, but society keeps on dragging you back in, with all their moral and ethical rules, don't they...

Second, I would ask you how it is that you can know ANYTHING about God without His revelation? Of course, we can learn SOME things about God from observing His creation (which you likely deny, but you are living in it at any rate, and it HAS made a difference in the way you think about things).

Christian theologians suggest that God has revealed Himself in three ways -- first, through the created order. The ORIGINAL modern scientists were Christians (look it up). They believed that they could discern the mind of God by observing His orderly creation -- and they did. We now base almost all of our understanding of our physical universe on their laws and proposals -- modified as we've learned more, yes, but the same laws, nonetheless.

The second way that God has reavealed Himself is through persons. He is a God of faith -- and thus "unprovable" by scientific means. God will NEVER be proven the way that some of you insist that He be proven, yet millions testify that He exists, operates in our world, and in our lives. Yes, I know that millions can be wrong, but in this case, the evidence is strong to suggest that they are not. There are simply too many cases of "divine intervention" to dismiss them lightly. God IS at work in and though His people, every day in so many ways as to be utterly astounding once one grasps the implications of that fact. Part of this "revelation" are the prophets, and Jesus, who came to earth fully human, while setting aside none of His Godhood.

The third way is through the revelation of the Word of God -- the Bible. This written record was penned over a span of 1500 (yes 1500) years, by 45 authors, on three continents, in three languages, by farmers, kings, fishermen, doctors, slaves, politicians, tax collecters, sons of a carpenter, and others. It is in two halves -- the Old Testament and the New Testament.

The OT is the story of God, working out His plan to send a Messiah -- including filling us in on why He was/is needed. In the OT, many prophecies were made concerning the coming Messiah -- all fulfilled in detail in the NT. Note that some of the claims to a "loose" canon of the OT and NT are not true. The OT was already translated from Hebrew into Greek in the 3rd century BC in Alexandria, Egypt in a version called the Septuigint. It is often abbreviated the LXX version. It predated Jesus by at least 250 years, and contained ALL of the prophecies concerning His coming, even the town in which He would be born (Bethlehem). The OT is divided up into four parts -- the Torah (the Law of Moses -- first 5 books), the history of Israel (partly contained in the Law), the poetry and wisdom sections (Psalms, Proverbs, The Song of Songs, etc.), and the prohets, both "major" and "minor" (not for content, but for length).

The NT is the fulfillment of the OT. It does not displace it, nor does it refute it -- it answers it and completes it. It is the story of what happened after that 600 year silence from God between the OT and NT times. It contains the four "Gospels," Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, each written to a different audience, for a different purpose, but together fleshing out the earthly life of Jesus. Luke, a physician, historian, and disciple wrote both the Gospel with his name, and also the Acts of the Apostles -- what happened after Jesus ascended into heaven. He took careful pains to be historically accurate and many a scholar have indicated that Luke was a marvel in the ancient world for his astounding accuracy. He told us of the travels, the trials, the growth of the church into Asia Minor and Europe, and also about the demise of several of the orignial Apostles of Jesus. Paul writes the middle section of the NT, and comprises the bulk of the writings with his "epistles" (letters) to the churches that he founded or cared for. Other writers also wrote epistles (John, Peter, Jude, James, and Hebrews, author unknown, but supposed by many to be Apollos), and then the Revelation, which was penned by John, and which showed the church the future events planned by God, some of which have yet to come to pass.

In NO PLACE has a defined prophecy of the Bible been disproven. Especially in the life of Christ. It is historically accurate, where it speaks of the things of this world it is also scientifically accurate (but not written in scientific language, nor is it a science text book as some have tried to make it). For instance, centuries before we ever sent a deep-sea diving sub to the rift in the bottom of the ocean, the Bible state that the waters of the deep came up from under the earth, from cracks in the ocean floor. The Bible also stated (roughly 4500 years ago -- at the time of the building of the Egyptian pyramids) that the FIRST act of creation was light. Our modern scientists totally agree. Photons were the first thing that came about in the Big Bang -- so say ALL. How did Moses, who wrote the book of Genesis know those things except that God reveal them to him?

Why do I follow it? Becasue it is TRUTH. I have spent an inordinate amount of time researching and studying the claims of Scripture in both English and in the original languages (Yes, I read both Hebrew and Greek -- Aramaic is but a few chapters here and there in Daniel and Jeremiah, and I have not had the need to learn it for them). I have UTTER confidence in the Bible as a factual historical document -- that I also believe was inspired by God. I have more, if you like on the Bible. We have barely scratched the surface...

My basic philosophy is:
Whether you believe in God or not, live a good life. If you do believe in God, have the realization that you will fail, that you will screw up, and in the end, God will know whether you lived well or not. Accept everyone as Christ did, and show the world through your actions, not your words, that you can have a good life with God.

But, how do you KNOW that you are living a life pleasing to God without some reference as to what it is that God is looking for? Making up one's own religion, however sincere one is, is a disaster in the making. That is exactly how cults are formed, and exactly how the church in past centures strayed into committing the sins of the Inquisiton, etc. There is no hope once a person is divorced from the Bible, for any wind will change you and blow you here and there. No, I prefer the solid anchor of Scripture -- verified and true. THAT tells me what the "good life" is -- without guessing, or getting it wrong as so many have.

BTW, you have sevearl times spoken of the "good life." Care to share what that is? Where you came up with it? You wouldn't be borrowing from that book you claim to dislike so much, now would you? Trying to live the "golden rule," for instance?



Sometimes -- but what gives you (living shallowly yourself) the right to scrutinize others? Do you not have enough problems of your own to take care of? How about you get some help from others -- wouldn't that be a better way? That is the biblical way -- we are created for relationship and community -- that's partially why we tend to hang out on forums like this. We are looking for relationship and community. That is what the Bible and the church offers -- and that is partly what Jesus died to accomplish!

I know the teachings of Maslow... He wrote the heirarchy of needs. There is not a word that he wrote that goes against the Bible, BTW. We ARE to feed, care for, cloth, and raise up our families -- and ourselves. We ARE to develop human relationships to satisfy human needs. Are some churchy folk shallow? Sure -- but so too are some agnostics and atheists that only pick that route of belief becasue they are pissed at God...



We can "leave it alone" but even you have a difficult time doing that, as we've all seen. At least I'm trying to share truth in a way that just presents the facts, and I'm perfectly comforable in letting you and others make their own decision about what to do with what I've shared.

Just so you know -- so too did Jesus. He let people walk away from Him whenever they wanted to. He has yet to drag a person kicking and screaming into His kingdom.

Next...

Are you guys having fun? You're arguing amongst yourselves and sounding like a bunch of 12 year olds at that.

Let's get back to the discussion... A couple things were said while I was out at work that I 'd like to respond to.

1) Yes, I know EXACTLY what a pagan is, but there are multiple definitions of the word. You can be a Pagan -- one who worships the elements in a pre-Christian way, earth, wind, fire, water, plus a few scattered whatever's like Pan, etc. Closely related to Wicca, but not exactly the same deal. Or, you can be a pagan -- one who lives like he is the only thing that matters, also called nihilist, and a couple of other phrases. Generally an unbeliever and perhaps forceful in that unbelief (why -- I'll never know. You defeat your own arguments when you think that you have something to say when what you say is that what we say doesn't exist -- how's that for a mind-bender?).

2) There is a lot of evidence that we live in a universe that was Intelligently Designed. How exactly that works out is still up for debate, but the evidence is in. Its called "anthropic principles" and there are a BUNCH of them that are causing a lot of cosmologists and other scientists to re-think some widely held tenets that otherwise are believed in and of themselves by faith.

Before you go off on the above statement, I ask you to show PROOF that there could possibly be multiple universes, or perhaps an easier one -- what is the "dark matter" that fills the universe? Certainly those should be easy questions to answer, seeing as how so many "scientists" and other atheistic naturalists hold to them as the core of their belief for how we arrived.

In fact, science is almost bancrupt at this stage of the game, and is looking outside planet earth for causes of the evolutionary spark. That's in part what all the excitement is about the Mars probe, etc. There is a desperate search to find something alive outside our planet that could possibly have seeded this planet, and thus explain how and why we got here -- including, but not limited to how DNA, RNA, and even protien molecules formed. Please don't cite the Miller-Urey experiments -- they were dismal failures and were discredited by the scientific community (but not the textbooks we use to educate our children!) shortly after they were annouced.

The truth of "science" is that we have been unable to replicate the building blocks of life in any meaningful way, even with $$$ spent in the billions to do so. Of course, the answer to that is, as always, "not yet..." But how long will we have to wait? Miller-Urey was in the late 50's -- yes, over 50 years ago, and still no progress... Meanwhile, other evidence points solidly toward a universe with a beginning, and the critters within it replicating according to their kinds -- just like the Bible said.

3) How old is the earth? Who really knows? Science doesn't. The church doesn't. The Bible doesn't. A couple of folks have tried to figure it out -- both scientists and theologians, but so far, I've seen no solidly firm number. Archbishop Usher tried to calculate all the things that happened in the Bible, and compared them to the events of history to try to come up with a timeline. He was sort of successful -- as far as the historical record could carry him, but I'd have to say that he missed the dating of the Earth wildly -- it is NOT 6000 years old, so you can drop that argument as well. AS far as science is concerned, the number changes almost every day. Oh, they round it off into a couple billion years here and there, but the truth is that they are merely extrapolating based on current conditions and evidence, with NO sure knowledge that things were ALWAYS the same. How could we know that they were? We were not there, and have no sure way of measuring such things, so any guess is just that, a guess.

I favor a "young earth" creation event, but I generally refuse to place a date on it. What I do know is that civilized humankind seems to begin somewhere around 10,000 years in the Fertile Cresent (exactly where the Bible places the beginning of mankind!). I also know that if we gathered ALL of the bones of early humans and placed them in one place at one time, they would barely fill a modern coffin... Hardly enough to go on to make the wild predictions that are being made. Bet they didn't tell you that in science class.

I can go on some about origins from both sides of the debate, but I'll leave that stand there and go on to the next point...

4) Ways of "knowing." From many of the posts, especially the silly post with the graph, you would think that there is only one possible way of knowing anything. I guess the school system got to you guys... How can we "know" anything or something? By observation, certainly -- as far as our observation is accurate, repeatable, and verifiable, which we all know isn't always true.

What about by "testimony?" That is certainly the way that every court in the land comes to "know" the facts in a trial, so it HAS to be a valid way of knowing, yet in discussions like this, it seems to get set by the wayside, even while most of you are using THAT as your argument. Think about it -- you are SAYING (testifying) that YOU know something based on what you have experienced. YOU know it is true becasue it happened to YOU. THAT is testimonial evidence, and it is not to be taken lightly, so IF that is your tactic in debate, you also must allow the other side to use the same tactic -- and the Christian is testifying that God exists, has changed their lives, and is real -- by evidences in their life that cannot be shown in any other fashion.

There are other ways of knowing based on reason and philosophy -- reasoning out an equation concerning some thing or another. If A is B and if B is C, then A must also be C, and the like. This is perhaps the surest way of knowing anything, and it is the basis for the scientific method, yet, this way of knowing is also discounted in this debate. In fact, one of the surest "laws" of the universe is the law of non-contradiction. Square cannot be round. Roung cannot be triangle. To say that square is round, or that round is triangle is to contradict oneself. Aristotle was the first to publish a work about this law. He said: "one cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time." The law of non-contradiction stipulates that there IS a truth and that there is something that is not true, for you cannot hold two things of the same nature, yet opposite in thought to both be true at once -- even if weak-minded persons do so all the time in their personal belief systems.

Many of you who are posting your stuff against the Christian position are violating the law of non-contradiction, the use of testimony, and also the use of systematic observation to arrive at the truth. In other words, you are striking out, and it shows...

It seems like today has boiled down to sad songs and personal attacks.

I do want to return to the issues surrounding the text of Scripture. The Bible is more sure than most folks know -- we are at a point where about 99% of the text is certain, with the remaining 1% that remains unsure being of no consequence to any doctrine of Christianity.

There is more manuscript evidence for the Bible than for ANY other book of antiquity, and more are being found all the time. Currently, there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 26,000 copies of the New Testament manuscripts out there -- and why is that important? Let's suppose that I asked 10 of you to retype one of my posts. I'd bet that almost all of the 10 would have errors. If we could compare them to the originals (which WE can do easily, seeing as how it is the here and now) we would be able to highlight the errors very quickly and restore the text.

In the case of the Bible (and other books of antiquity) we don't have the luxury of being able to compare to the actual original documents (called "autographs" versus the copies called "manuscripts"). That would seemingly create a problem, but an interesting thing happens when you begin comparing copies -- NO TWO HAVE IDENTICAL MISTAKES.

If, in our exercise, we had no remaining original document, we could still arrive at the original by comparing the 10, none of which are likely to have the exact same mistakes -- and even if a couple do have the same mistakes, not all of the 10 will. Arriving back at the original text would be relatively easy.

In the case of the New Testament, we have 26,000 copies with which to compare... Biblcal scholars (biblical textual criticism) have nailed down the content of the New Testament with some high assurance. What we have, in the original Greek language (the language of the NT writers) is certain almost to a letter.

So, what of the Old Testament? How can we be sure of its accuracy? Well, certain things have happened in history that have helped us to know that the OT is also accurate -- as accurate as the NT. First, is the way that the OT was transmitted (copied). The scribes that copied the OT were called (in Hebrew) "counters" for they litterally counted each letter on each page (they worked on scrolls, and though there were not "pages" as in a book, the text was still layed out in coloums, as if written on a page. They did not write from one end of a scroll to the other, then start over... :confused1 ). They also counted letters to the exact center letter of the text, which HAD to appear on in a certain place, every time -- exactly. The penalty for missing the mark the first time was to have the entire work thrown away, only to have to start all over from scratch. The penalty for the second time was death... I think it is safe to assume that the scribes that copied the text of the OT were accurate, but wait, there is more...

That, in and of itself is a very accurate way of transmitting text, but there were other correctives and things that they did, remember, the scribes worked to copy the thing they revered more than any other thing -- the Word of God, to them, the book of the Law, Prophets, Wisdom, and History. When they came to the name of God (YHWY translitterated into English, often pronounced "Yaweh" or sometimes "Jehovah" when the vowels for the word "adonai" (Lord) are combined with the consents YHWH, you get Jehovah) the scribes would stop, ritually purify themselves, put on a new robe, and take up a new pen, with a new pot of ink before they wrote the word. It was THAT important to them.

So, how do we know that we have an accurate transmission of the OT text? Well a couple key events have helped here. First, were the Masorites, who diligently worked to copy the OT books into a more modern form of Hebrew alphabet. It was they who added vowel pointing, etc. They were remarkably expert in the Hebrew language, and we today are very appreciative of their efforts. Better still, their work compares favorably to older copies of the OT that have been found in archeological digs, temples in and out of Israel, and the biggest factor of all, the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are the most ancient copies of the OT scriptures. What is cool is that even though the Dead Sea scrolls predate the next oldest manuscript of the OT by 1000 years --- THERE ARE NO CHANGES. When the scrolls were first discovered, there was a lot of speculation about how the church would react if the text of the OT was radically different. That proved to be of no consequence, for it was identical.

Added to all of this, the OT was also translated from the Masoretic Hebrew into Greek in 250 BC in Alexandria, Egypt -- for there was a large contingent of Greek-speaking Israelites living in Egypt at the time. This, once and for all, locked the canon (the word means "rule" or "measure") of the OT into place 250 years before the birth of Christ, which I mentioned above.

The text of Scripture is THE SINGLE MOST RELIABLE MANUSCRIPT of all antiquity -- it FAR OUTCLASSES all other books -- which means the works of Plato, Aristotle, The Illiad, the Oddesey, etc -- all of which have fewer than 100 copies extant (in existence) and all of which date to at least 500, if not 1000 years past the time of their actual writing. The NT dates to as little as 20 years past the time of the writing of certain books... Quite a difference in accuracy, reliability, and transmission, I'd say.

The Bible is trustworthy and accurate in the original languages, but what of all the other translations -- English, Spanish, French, Chinese, etc., etc., etc. (The BIble has been translated and is continually being translated into virtually every language and dialect on earth!) Well, translations are just that -- the transposing from one language to another so that a particular people group can read in their own language or dialect. No translation is perfect, but the translators, like those that worked to copy the original language manuscripts take their task seriously -- taking liberties with the Word of God is just something not done.

Yes, some splinter groups that claim the name of Christ have indeed messed with the Bible (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and some who go under the name "liberal" Christian) but everyone knows what they have done -- it is no big secret in the field of biblical study. For the most part, however, the translators of Scripture have taken every pain to be as accurate as is humanly possible, with serious oversight into the editing and translating process by boards of scholars to insure that the text has been transmitted accurately.

Why so many? Well, simply, becasue there are a lot of ways that people talk, and there are also a lot of ways that people think. One Bible, the NIV (New International Version) for instance, is a "thought-by-thought" translation. The idea behind this is that the key words and phrases from the orignal Greek are thoughts, and it would be best for the modern reader to also have the Bible that repeats the thoughts of the writers, instead of just their words. The NAS (New American Standard) on the other hand, is a literal word-by-word translation, which means that it, as accurately as scholars know how to do, translates each word of the Greek into English. A new version, the HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible) bridges the gap between the NIV and the NAS, with word-by-word translation for the most part, but also using thought-by-thought when needed to make a passage clear to the reader -- that is my preferred version -- it is THE most accurate Bible in English of all time (based on the best and earliest manuscripts) and the scholars that did the project were second to none.

What about the good old King James Version? Well, the original was translated in 1611 AD, and it is now SO archaic that it is virtually impossible to read unless one is a student of Old English. It too has been "updated" (as have most English translations) and the current version dates to the late 1800's -- still archaic English language usage compared to what wa are using today. Is it a "bad Bible?" Certainly not... Any Bible is a good Bible, and the BEST Bible is the one someone actually reads and understands.

This BREIF history of the Bible transmission should allay a few fears that the Word of God has been tampered with over the years -- IT HAS NOT, and scholars such as myself -- and those FAR more adept than I -- can EASILY go and READ MORE ANCIENT MANUSCRIPTS to see if there are differences. There are none.

You sort of left out a part... He forgives all sinners that turn to Jesus, who paid their sin debt in full.

Let me explain true biblical orthodox (not to be confused with the Greek Orthodox Church) Christianity for those that really don't understand what it is, how one becomes a part of it, and what is expected of those that are biblical Christians. (Note, I specifically use the term "biblical Christian" becasue that is what I am defining. There are others that claim the name Christian that have no love for the Bible, nor do they follow its teachings. IMO, they are likely not Christians, but merely religiously inclined -- often called spiritual" in this day and age, but ultimately God is the judge of the human heart, and only He knows for sure who else is His.)

1) A true biblical Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. Often called a disciple, they believe what Jesus believed, and do (as best they can) what Jesus asked them to do, which actually isn't very much. He asked us to: a) Love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and then also to love others as we love ourselves. b) Go into all the world (from the Greek, "panta ta ethnos" -- "all people groups") and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded us -- in His power and authority. c) To remember what Jesus did for us on the Cross by regularly participating in the Lord's Table (often called Communion). d) Build up one another, in love, so that all might be better off. He also asked us to be faithful, to thank God for all blessings, and to pray.

2) One becomes a true biblical Christian by being "adopted" into the family/kingdom of God. We are not part of that family/kingdom before we are adopted becasue we are born into this world as "sinners" (which in the Scriptures means that we are in rebellion against God -- not all the other things that are also called "sins". Those other things are mere symptoms of our base "sin" which is rebellion.) and sinners do not inherit the kingdom of God unless their sin has been forgiven. We are "adopted" into God's family by a very simple method -- faith in Jesus Christ -- based on the completed work of atonement (paying the price that we owed as the penalty for our sins) on the Cross. Becoming "adopted" is also called "being born again from above" and being "saved" in church language.

3) We are adopted when we pray and ask Jesus to save us from our sins. This is a two-step process involving both faith and repentence. Faith is saying that you "trust" God to do exactly what He says that He both will, and can do -- that is, remove your sin and place it on Jesus, while at the same time, giving us the perfect righteousnes (non-sin) of Jesus in its place, making us acceptable in God's eyes. Repentence is making a U-turn away from our former sin and turning to God. Faith and Repentence are a two-sided coin, so to speak. They go hand-in-hand, one with the other. We turn becasue in faith, God makes it possible TO turn, and at the same time, we have faith because we have turned FROM our sins to Jesus, the author and finisher of our salvation. A critical part of salvation is understanding that we are NOT worthy -- and that we cannot EARN adoption into God's family by our own efforts -- it is ALL based onwhat Jesus did for us, which we learn about in the pages of the Bible.

4) With faith and repentence, we are then instantly "justified" which means in simple languge, made "just as if I had never sinned." This is truly the "good news" (which is exactly what the word "gospel" means in the original Greek) of God's promise to us -- that we can be totally forgiven, and totally made right in His eyes -- acceptable to spend eternity with Him in whatever manner He chooses.

5) A further step is "sanctification" which is the process of transforming our lives, our hearts, and our minds into what it is that God wants us to be. We are to become "holy" as God is holy. That word, holy, means "set apart for God's use," From the same root word in the Greek (hagias) we also get the word "saint" (which just means "set apart one, or in other words, Christain). Most of the letters in the NT are wriiten to the "saints" which are the Christian people. Sanctification can occur rapidly in some, for others it is a life-long prospect. We slowly become conformed to the model that Jesus set for us, acting like Him, loving like Him, helping like Him, and yes, sometimes dying like Him.

6) The final step in a Christian's life is to one day, finalize the sanctification process with glorification. This happens when our mortal bodies are resurrected and we begin the process of spending eternity with God. We will have tasks to complete, lives to live, etc., just about like we do now, but without the sin nature, and also without the "sweat of our brow" nature of work that we inherited becasue of our fall into sin. Just like Adam -- the first man -- was called by God before he fell into sin to "cultivate the garden, grow food, and take care of the world -- so too will we continue in that sort of activity forever.

(BTW, the term "Christian" means "little Christ" and it was first applied to the followers of Jesus in Antioch, as a term of derision by the "pagan" locals. It is STILL a term of derision, but those who gladly take that name do so becasue they know what it is that Jesus did for us, and no amount of derision is going to deter us from following our Lord and Savior.)

7) Biblical Christians are NOT perfect people. They still fight against the powers that work against all of us on this planet -- sin, our desires that entrap us, and the evil that is a part of this natural world. Being a Christian bears no promise that ALL will be well in this life. As we have already seen in a couple of heart-breaking posts, some people that claim the name of Jesus WILL suffer, some WILL die in a way that seems to us to be too soon. But that is NOT the end of the story! To those who are "in Christ" by adoption into His family, there is NO CONDEMNATION. That is God's promise to us. He also promises that NO ONE will be able to snatch us out of His hand -- and that includes us... We are, however, given help in our struggle by the ever-present in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit tells our spirit that we are God's adopted children. He also convicts us of truth. Another ministry of His is our conscience at work, telling us when we go astray of God's desires. Another still is His help in understanding the Scriptures. He is our ever-present help in time of need, and He never leaves us or forsakes us once we are adopted into the family of God.

(To the man who's wife shot herself -- the priest CANNOT say definitively that your bride is in hell. Only God can say that -- I'd trust a loving God to show grace and mercy. If she was a believer in God, she was adopted, and I can't find where you can get "un-adopted" anywhere in the Bible! I'd dismiss what he said and see what God has to say about the whole deal.)

8) The Christian disciple is part of a larger plan of God -- called the church. This church doesn't have a name over the door -- it is the entire body of believers that have been adopted into the family of God. What it is NOT is a bunch of religious folk that merely gather together from time to time to sing dusty old songs, etc. The Church is God's way of wrapping loving arms around us in the here and now, when we so desperately need them. It is a friend to pray for us, and a partner to do the work of Christ. Some of those people that form the universal body of Christ called the Church will gather together locally in congregations also called the church, but this time WITH a name over the door. The funny thing is that there are LOTS of places with names over the door, but few actual "churches" that are filled with adopted children of God.

Being a member of a church, being baptized as an infant, having or having read a Bible, having attended a Sunday school or confirmation class DO NOT make one a Christian -- only Jesus, through faith and repentance, asked for in prayer, can do that, which is why there seems to be so much confusion about the nature of the true Church and the true Christians. We are no more Christians for walking into a church building than we are mechanics for walking into a garage. It takes something more -- you actually have to DO WHAT BOTH OF THOSE TASKS REQUIRE in order to be either a mechanic or a Christian.

I hope this helps explain the nature of a biblical Christian.

Thanks for letting me post this stuff. For every one of you that is upset, or who dismisses some of this stuff, another is helped by it, and some may even have a life-changing event as the truth of these words hits home. I'm praying for you to find Jesus, and to follow Him. It is the BEST POSSIBLE LIFE right now, and it comes with a promise of better things to come... :yelclap:

See? It all makes sense now! You have a deeper and more meaningful relationship with God, now, don't you?

-----Matt-----

 

[ECKSJAY]

Read EVERY word of this, and it will all be clear. VERY CLEAR. Straight forward.

See? It all makes sense now! You have a deeper and more meaningful relationship with God, now, don't you?

-----Matt-----

I see no mention of YHWH or hummus. I'm still offended.

Hava Nagila.

 

[red91]

I see no mention of YHWH or hummus. I'm still offended.

Hava Nagila.

Got Closet Jew ?





:shhh:

 

[ECKSJAY]

Got Closet Jew ?





:shhh:

:read:

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Hava Nagila...

...will travel.

:star:
i decided to use the star smiley. i don't know why, but i've never used it before so i thought - WTHMAW

 

[ECKSJAY]

...will travel.

:star:
i decided to use the star smiley. i don't know why, but i've never used it before so i thought - WTHMAW

:yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap:

 

[XJ Dreamin']

:yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap:

High praise. Thank you. I'm on a roll.