Tube Rockers Question: Beef vs Weight

[XJlimitedx99]

I went with .5" thk UHMW and added supports under the long spans (near the bottom and center). Grainger had best price when I bought. It has a high COE so make sure you account for thermal expansion in your mtg holes.

I recently made up some fixturing at work with UHMW that goes through a machine with temperature swings from room temp up to about 200°F. We calculated the 24" strip of plastic would grow about .300" with that change in temperature. Talk about crazy COE!

I like how you counterbored for hex head bolts. My original plan was to use flat head screws with mating countersinks, but I don't think my fabrication will be accurate enough to have the FHS's locate properly. And that's ignoring effects of temperature...

Looks like hex head screws or maybe button head screws are the way to go.

Rub rails are 1.75 dia x .188. Pretty sure about the .188 but I forget, def not .125. They're holding up fine and glad I added them. And, fwiw, the bends were done on the cheap HF pipe kinker.

Good work using the HF unit to do that. Its the perfect job to use that bender for as a slight kink/deformation of the tube is not life threatening like an imperfection in a cage could be.

A friend of mine has a JD2 bender with 1.75" and 1.5" dies. I've been looking for a reason to use it. He told me we can probably bend 1.5 x .188 wall DOM, but doesn't think we can do 1.75 x .188 wall.

Depends how you wheel, but I personally wouldn't go thinner than .188 on the 2x6. If I had a mostly overland rig then maybe .125 with the UHMW skids and rub rails.

Looking at those pictures really makes me think .125" will be sufficient on the 2x6 because they are mostly protected by the UHMW and rub rail.

Another concern of mine is the 2x6 being too large of a span to land a cage pillar on for only .125" wall.

B pillar cage tie-in doesn't exactly line up with an outrigger. I think ended up adding a support plate under the cage tie-in and welding it in.

I took some measurements the other day to plan how many outriggers to use and where to put them. I want the rear-most support to be against the leaf hanger, and the forward-most support to be 48" from there to match a 48" sheet of UHMW.

From what I saw, there is no good way to evenly space the outriggers with having one in place for a B pillar cage landing and also without interfering with seatbelt bolts, seat mounts, and my longarm crossmember bolts. I'll cross this bridge when I get there, but right now I'm thinking of using uneven spacing on the outriggers to snake them in between all the interfering components.

I did the rockers on my last XJ with .188 wall 2x4.

I used .125 wall 2x4 for my current XJ

The jeep gets used for overlanding and hunting but the most likely thing to contact the rockers is the high-lift jack.

I'd like to see pictures of all the mangled .125-wall rockers. I have not regretted cutting back at all.

That statement about the high-lift being the most likely thing to contact definitely drives home the reasoning behind using .125" on your rockers. Where did you butt the tube against? Looks like they stick out a bit farther than I would expect 2x4 to if put directly against the inner rocker. Are they braced to the unibody rails?

yes, I have braces (1x1 tube) in two places - one right below the A pillar, the other back by the C pillar. Fully welded along the pinch seam and to the "sill" under the doors to create a near-OEM look.

Ah, that makes sense. I thought some bracing would be necessary but didn't want to say that your method was ineffective because clearly its been working for you.

I made my own 2x6 rock sliders by welding (2) 2x3x.120 square tubing. This keeps the sliders light weight, but gives a .250 center wall down the length.

This is a pretty trick idea. Guess the only downside is you still only have .125" wall on the outer edge. I do like that very much though. Solves the issue of having a 6" span with a thin wall.

-------------------------------------

I just sent in a materials quote request. I quoted:

2 x 6 x .188 rectangle
2 x 6 x .125 rectangle
1.5 x 1.5 x .125 square
1.75 x .120 DOM
1.5 x .188 DOM
1.75 x .120 HREW

I quoted the different material sizes and thicknesses to get an idea of price variation between sizes. I'll let you guys know what the prices are.

My current thoughts are:
-2 x6 x .125 rocker
-five 1.5 x 1.5 x .125 outriggers
-1.5 x .188 DOM rub rail
-0.5 thick UHMW skin

Still on the fence about .125 or .188 wall for the rocker. Part of me says screw the 35 lb, go .188 for peace of mind. Other part says make it an efficient design. Material price will likely have a factor in the decision.

Might go 4 outriggers instead of 5. Gonna have to see where things line up. I don't want large spans (16"+) of unsupported UHMW

Might back the UHMW with .125 or .250 aluminum. Might not. We'll see.

 

[WAZZUXJ]

I made my own 2x6 rock sliders by welding (2) 2x3x.120 square tubing. This keeps the sliders light weight, but gives a .250 center wall down the length.

This is a pretty trick idea. Guess the only downside is you still only have .125" wall on the outer edge. I do like that very much though. Solves the issue of having a 6" span with a thin wall.

I don't see the outer .120 edge being an issue. The edge adds structural strength and it is really less than a 2" span between edges. Plus, majority of rock sliders have .120 wall tube on the outside (which I plan to add at some point). The hardest hits are usually dropping down onto rocks which is why I wanted the .250 rib down the middle. Most side contact is just rubbing or sliding to pivot around rocks.

 

[Rob Mayercik]

Ah, that makes sense. I thought some bracing would be necessary but didn't want to say that your method was ineffective because clearly its been working for you.

More a case of "I forgot about them" when I described them initially, but that's cool. Can't take credit though, my rockers are my friend's design (and he added the braces on mine specifically because he started out without them on his own XJ, he landed on the passenger one hard once and messed up the RF door fitment. They sound small but they seem to make things very solid.

 

[sdspearo]

My current thoughts are:
-2 x6 x .125 rocker
-five 1.5 x 1.5 x .125 outriggers
-1.5 x .188 DOM rub rail
-0.5 thick UHMW skin

I think you'll be happy with this setup :thumbup:

 

[jeepingben]

That statement about the high-lift being the most likely thing to contact definitely drives home the reasoning behind using .125" on your rockers. Where did you butt the tube against? Looks like they stick out a bit farther than I would expect 2x4 to if put directly against the inner rocker. Are they braced to the unibody rails?

I followed the jeepkings.ca rocker replacement recipe. 1/8th inch flat stock plug welded to the panel under the door and 1/8th inch angle iron welded behind the 2x4.

I probably didn't manage to slide the 2x4 directly against the vertical face of the angle iron so that got me a little stick-out. I'm sure there are stronger ways to do it (even without adding a ton of weight) but I still haven't seen many pictures of mangled tube rockers.

 

[sdspearo]

...I still haven't seen many pictures of mangled tube rockers.

I'd say this one is pretty mangled

 

[denverd1]

I'd run .188. 1/4 will be a tad heavy IMO

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[jeepingben]

I'd say this one is pretty mangled

Good one! I did image searches for a while and didn't find much.

 

[EricsXJ]

Still on the fence about .125 or .188 wall for the rocker. Part of me says screw the 35 lb, go .188 for peace of mind. Other part says make it an efficient design. Material price will likely have a factor in the decision.

Go with the .188 wall and don't look back. You will thank yourself later.

 

[XJlimitedx99]

Got a quote back from Cohen Steel out of Concord, NH. Delivered prices are as follows:

-2" x 6" x .188" x 24' rectangle: $284.76 ($11.87/ft)

-2" x 6" x .125" x 24' rectangle: $199.08 ($8.30/ft)

-1.5" x 1.5" x .125" x 24' square: $68.04 ($2.84/ft)

-1.5" x .188" x 20' DOM round: $209.00 ($10.45/ft)

-1.5" x .120" x 20' DOM round: $145.00 ($7.25/ft)

-1.75" x .120" x 20' DOM round: $153.00 ($7.65/ft)

Didn't get a quote back for HREW. Also, I'll add these for comparison. My buddy that put the quote request in on his account will be picking some of this up:

-1.75" x .095" x 23' Chromoly DOM round: $189.52 ($8.24/ft)

-1.5" x .095" x 20' Chromoly DOM round $209.60 ($10.48/ft)

Now, I'm no fabricator. I've never purchased steel before, so I have no basis of comparison for these prices, but I laughed out loud at the $10.45/ft for .188 wall 1.5" DOM. I'm only judging based on prices I've seen other people report on forums over the years, but I was expecting more in the $3-$5/ft ballpark. Granted, most of those were several years ago and we're in unprecedented times.

On the other hand, $68/stick of 1.5" square sounds great. Maybe its not? I have no idea. Someone please tell me how these prices compare lol.

I am expecting another quote back from PA Steel. We're hoping to finagle a means of having them deliver to someone's commercial address so we can pick it up there.

Buying steel is a PITA. I had no idea. I thought you could just pop on over to the steel store and buy whatever you needed. Of course, every place within 100 miles of here works ~7-5 M-F, so I'd have to use PTO time from work to go to any of these places during business hours.

After dealing with this quoting full lengths of material BS and how it'll be more to buy shorter lengths, I'm thinking of going with .188 wall 2x6 because it will likely be a more versatile size to use for other projects such as a rear bumper and axle trusses. My mind could change about this tomorrow, or in 10 minutes. I'm not in control of what goes on up there, just along for the ride.

 

[Evan03]

1/4" might be less than 3/16.

Prices you dream of was so 15 years ago.
Prices can change drastically daily .

I priced 3/16 and haven't bought any lately because 1/4 was the same or less .
Im not concerned with saving weight.

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[Black1990jeep]

I wonder if plastic fake wood can be used as a rub rail? I see that stuff used on docks a lot. it is slippery and tough.

 

[sdspearo]

I wonder if plastic fake wood can be used as a rub rail? I see that stuff used on docks a lot. it is slippery and tough.

You mean like Trex decking? Sure, why not? But why stop there...wrap the doors with it too for the Wagoneer Woody look, haha!

 

[jeepingben]

I went to look at what the legendary 4643 used for its rockers and it appears to be considerably more beef than anyone is considering here!

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

I went to look at what the legendary 4643 used for its rockers and it appears to be considerably more beef than anyone is considering here!

its all relative to use...

that was a race car meant to be abused at the hammers. most dont wheel that hard. that siad... i think i used 2 6' sections for my 2x6 rocker replacement. i did .250 because thats what i had. but the weight difference between .188 vs .250 was something like 35lbs over 12', not the end of the world.

there were good 1/8" gouges in it by the time i scrapped the jeep. i landed on the rockers HARD quite a few times and eventually tweaked them. at the end of the day it is only as strong as what you weld it to. so i would say adding stiffeners and 3-5 "ties" to the frame are required regardless of the chosen wall thickness.

WAZZUXJ's idea of using 2x3 to create a center rib is a neat one if you want to go .125. if youre not doing that, i would suggest .188 wall minimum.

 

[SlowXj]

So as a side note bleeping jeep and others have used a piece of 1/8 and 3/16 cut in half long ways.... 3/16 on bottom and 1/8 on top. Lightens up the whole job, makes it cheaper, and you have all the strength in a slider format from hitting rocks.

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[XJlimitedx99]

Did some shopping around. Found that the prices I was quoted are competitive.

I reached out to 6 local places, and a handful of online distributors. Of the 6 local ones, 1 did not respond, 1 told me I was out of there service range (50 miles?), and 1 flat out said no.

Prices are as follows:

2" x 6" x .188" x 24'

Capitol: $283
Choice: $284
Cohen: $285
Midwest: $297
Supermarkets: $322
Alro Metals: $359
Metals Depot: $478

1.5" x 1.5" x .125" x 24'

Capitol: $67
Cohen: $68
Choice: $72
Midwest: $85
Supermarkets: $86
Alro Metals: $89
Metals Depot: $97


1.5" x .188" DOM /ft

Supermarkets: $7.92
Midwest: $7.93
Capitol: $10.00
Cohen: $10.45
Alro Metals: $11.23
Metals Depot: $15.40
Choice: $16.75

1.75" x .120" DOM /ft

Supermarkets: $5.82
Cohen: $7.65
Capitol: $8.00
Alro Metals: $8.14
Metals Depot: $9.40
Midwest: $10.72
Choice: $13.00

The online distributors Metal Supermarkets and Midwest Steel and Aluminum were both very comparable, surprisingly. Only big difference in most of the close pricing was shipping costs. Cohen quoted those prices delivered, which puts them above the rest. Metals Supermarkets has a warehouse 2 hours from me, so I might consider using them in the future if I can arrange pickup.

Big issue with the 1.5" x .188" DOM: 6-8 week lead time. Crap. That puts a wrench in things.

After all this thought and discussion, I asked my buddy to order me the .188 wall 2x6 and 2 sticks of 1.75x.120 DOM. Not exactly what I wanted, but its what I can get my hands on the easiest. I ordered extra of everything for future projects. I was not expecting to spent $800 on material, but it will be good stuff to learn with. Hopefully should have enough DOM to do tube fenders.

 

[GordoSmasho]

So these are tomken. 1/8” wall 2x4 with two frame mounts and bolted to the pinch seam in the middle. They did not hold up well.

As you can see they have not only bent in the middle and frowned big time on both sides. They have also bent the mount bars up and crushed my rocker panels and replaced them. Also pushed my b pillars up and are frowning the roof making the doors not close easily and not seal anymore.

 

[XJlimitedx99]

So these are tomken. 1/8” wall 2x4 with two frame mounts and bolted to the pinch seam in the middle. They did not hold up well.

As you can see they have not only bent in the middle and frowned big time on both sides. They have also bent the mount bars up and crushed my rocker panels and replaced them. Also pushed my b pillars up and are frowning the roof making the doors not close easily and not seal anymore.

Seeing that makes me feel better about using .188" wall! Looks like you have put those through their paces, and they did not fare so well. Rest of the body surely matches. Great looking rig, you clearly have some fun with it.

I'm hoping that by using .188" wall 2x6 and a rub rail I can keep my sheet metal out of the rocks. I'm not too upset about using .120" DOM for the rub rail because it will be easy enough to cut it off and make a new one if I ever really mangle it beyond reasonable use.

 

[GordoSmasho]

Seeing that makes me feel better about using .188" wall! Looks like you have put those through their paces, and they did not fare so well. Rest of the body surely matches. Great looking rig, you clearly have some fun with it.

I'm hoping that by using .188" wall 2x6 and a rub rail I can keep my sheet metal out of the rocks. I'm not too upset about using .120" DOM for the rub rail because it will be easy enough to cut it off and make a new one if I ever really mangle it beyond reasonable use.

Thx man.

Honestly the tube isnt dented anywhere. I think with proper tieins that thickness would be fine. The main problem is there are only tieins at the front and rear leaving the middle unsupported. And those tieins are 1-1/2 thin wall tubing. They just bent up till the tube hit something more substantial. Wall thickness of the rail was not the failure point imo it was the design. I personally wouldnt have any problem using 1/8” wall in a 2x6 configuration. Especially if it is being cut into the rockers and welded in with 4 or so proper frame tieins. It is substantially lighter.