Trans Fluid Poll

[xj88superjeep]

OH NO, THE DREADED ZDDP debate has slipped into a tranny fluid thread!!! Lets stay on topic...... LOL

 

[Ecomike]

OH NO, THE DREADED ZDDP debate has slipped into a tranny fluid thread!!! Lets stay on topic...... LOL

That takes all the fun out of it. I wonder if he is in the cam, engine parts, or engine rebuilding business, and needs more business, thus recommends SM oil, LOL. But I must wonder why they use to make high ZDDP oils for all cars until recently, maybe just to blow smoke up asses. LOL.

!!!1

 

[5-90]

High ZDDP oils are only needed in hi-performance motors with high valve spring pressures. Your stock flat tappet 4.0 will be fine with any SM rated oil. yes ZDDP was reduced due to three way catalyst poisoning from the volatile phosphorus in short chain ZDDP. Lubrizol has developed a High phos retention long chain ZDDP where the phos is less volatile, it is expected to be in gf-5 oils releasing in 2010. There have been many studys finding ZDDP didnt really help beyond 800 ppm, which is the limit on sm rated oils. also with the reduction of ZDDP came with increases in other anti-wear adds such as moly (MoDTC), boron, antimony, and others.

Erm - can we try to keep this on topic? ZDDP concentration in engine oils is fuel for another discussion (and doesn't have so much to do with spring pressure as tappet style - organometallic additives are anti-scuff additives added to keep surface wear down on rubbing metal surfaces.

The reason for the decrease in organometallic content (particularly ZDDP) is because the oil blowby into the chamber results in catalyst poisoning, and a degradation of catalyst efficiency.

(We'd be able to eliminate the whole problem at a stroke if someone would release a roller cam and valvetrain for the AMC six - which is probably doable. We'd just need a cam ground for roller tappets - I think the ChryCo roller tappets could be made to work, as I recall, with little to no modification.)

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

I get a big kick out of reading these threads about which oil or tranny fluid to use..........:laugh::laugh::laugh: I have been using ATF+4 for almost 2 years in my AW4 and it runs great:moon: I also run Royal Purple in the motor and it purrs like a kitten with 50 psi oil pressure all day long!! :gee:

 

[RCP Phx]

I get a big kick out of reading these threads about which oil or tranny fluid to use..........:laugh::laugh::laugh: I have been using ATF+4 for almost 2 years in my AW4 and it runs great:moon: I also run Royal Purple in the motor and it purrs like a kitten with 50 psi oil pressure all day long!! :gee:

Is that all,Ive been running Amsoil for 35 years,8 of them in my brand new(2000) AW4.Many long distance trips towing my 3K LBS trailer,still runs as good as new,looks even better.The inside(s) are spotless,no sludge build-ups at all!

 

[Ecomike]

I wonder what Toyota has been recommending lately?

Did any one notice that the newest TSB did not include 87-88 Renix AW4s?

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

Is that all,Ive been running Amsoil for 35 years,8 of them in my brand new(2000) AW4.Many long distance trips towing my 3K LBS trailer,still runs as good as new,looks even better.The inside(s) are spotless,no sludge build-ups at all!

No, I have been running water in the T/C and propane in the tires for 40 years.............:wave:

 

[cavaliers1323]

That takes all the fun out of it. I wonder if he is in the cam, engine parts, or engine rebuilding business, and needs more business, thus recommends SM oil, LOL. But I must wonder why they use to make high ZDDP oils for all cars until recently, maybe just to blow smoke up asses. LOL.

!!!1

I actually sell wholesale produce

And they used to make it before they found out it was poisoning catalysts....

 

[cavaliers1323]

Erm - can we try to keep this on topic? ZDDP concentration in engine oils is fuel for another discussion (and doesn't have so much to do with spring pressure as tappet style - organometallic additives are anti-scuff additives added to keep surface wear down on rubbing metal surfaces.

The reason for the decrease in organometallic content (particularly ZDDP) is because the oil blowby into the chamber results in catalyst poisoning, and a degradation of catalyst efficiency.

(We'd be able to eliminate the whole problem at a stroke if someone would release a roller cam and valvetrain for the AMC six - which is probably doable. We'd just need a cam ground for roller tappets - I think the ChryCo roller tappets could be made to work, as I recall, with little to no modification.)

Yes a flat tappet cam needs more AW adds than a roller cam, but i promise you spring pressures are very important. i stand behind my statement that any SM rated oil is more than enough for a stock 4.0 I6, as well as many other flat tappet cam'd motors. This is proven by MANY UOA's.

Melling makes a roller cam for 96-98 4.0 I6, a quick google should bring it up.

And yes zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) is the king of AW adds, remember the zinc hardly does anything the phosphorus barley does anything in comparison its the sulfates within that do all the work! There have been some very recent promising studies with titanium thigh might help lower ZDDP in modern oils.

 

[xj88superjeep]

This thread has gone awry, but since it's here, I want to learn... What about these?

Hydraulic Roller Tappet - Sold Individually (2.5L/4.0L Jeep Engines)

Sold here:
http://www.chicagoconnection.us/cat.php?log=Mopar&group=17&cat=155

Do they eliminate the "flat tappet" issue???

 

[ehall]

Dragging back on topic, I was looking at the FSM tonight and noticed that the '91 book specs Mercon for the AW4. Mercon is the same thing as Dexron III and Dex VI is replacement for that (Mercon V is NOT an upgrade to Merc/Dex III)

 

[92DripCherokee]

uh, these days a car dealer would do anything to sell you a new car.
no conspiracies implied, its do or die now.

and whatever you do to keep your jeep running reliably on road or trail, now is not a good time to fry a $1500+ tranny. Playing it safe is smart.

Dexron IV is likely the best choice of available fluids besides Dexron III, if your mileage is under 80k or so. I've done plenty of searching on this, and slippage is common with higher mileage AW4's when switched ATF+4 or synthetic Dexron. It's awesome if your transmission runs fine on ATF+4, cause it lasts longer than Dexron.

But if anything's funny, its someone who thinks the local domestic car dealer wants your vehicle to last...hahahaha. Now thats friggin fu-u-u-nny! They've long specialized in designed obsolescence, with disposable cars that puke out in 100k.

My dad has a 2004 Corvette, with a sealed transmission. No suprise, it croaked at 64k, being BABIED. $2400 to R&R. You think that was just chance that it failed? No, brilliant engineering, to fail right outside warranty.

So rest assured, the dealer want's your vehicle dead.

 

[cavaliers1323]

This thread has gone awry, but since it's here, I want to learn... What about these?

Hydraulic Roller Tappet - Sold Individually (2.5L/4.0L Jeep Engines)

Sold here:
http://www.chicagoconnection.us/cat.php?log=Mopar&group=17&cat=155

Do they eliminate the "flat tappet" issue???

in conjunction with a roller cam. yes. top it off with yella tera roller rockers n your good to go. but as i said earlier this isnt necessary with a stock grind cam and stock valve springs. todays oils are more than enough to protect stock motors. its when yo get into hi per motors with flat tappets, aggressive grind cams and high valve spring pressures when the extra AW adds are needed.

 

[cavaliers1323]

uh, these days a car dealer would do anything to sell you a new car.
no conspiracies implied, its do or die now.

and whatever you do to keep your jeep running reliably on road or trail, now is not a good time to fry a $1500+ tranny. Playing it safe is smart.

Dexron IV is likely the best choice of available fluids besides Dexron III, if your mileage is under 80k or so. I've done plenty of searching on this, and slippage is common with higher mileage AW4's when switched ATF+4 or synthetic Dexron. It's awesome if your transmission runs fine on ATF+4, cause it lasts longer than Dexron.

But if anything's funny, its someone who thinks the local domestic car dealer wants your vehicle to last...hahahaha. Now thats friggin fu-u-u-nny! They've long specialized in designed obsolescence, with disposable cars that puke out in 100k.

My dad has a 2004 Corvette, with a sealed transmission. No suprise, it croaked at 64k, being BABIED. $2400 to R&R. You think that was just chance that it failed? No, brilliant engineering, to fail right outside warranty.

So rest assured, the dealer want's your vehicle dead.

sealed as in it only has a dipstick???? no drain plug or pan to drop? or sealed as in no dipstick only a drain and fill plug similar to a manual?

the way things are today i couldn't tell you what a dealer wants, but i doubt what your saying. I highly doubt it if your suggesting the MFG wants that to happen.

not everythings a conspiracy

 

[xj88superjeep]

sealed as in it only has a dipstick???? no drain plug or pan to drop? or sealed as in no dipstick only a drain and fill plug similar to a manual?

the way things are today i couldn't tell you what a dealer wants, but i doubt what your saying. I highly doubt it if your suggesting the MFG wants that to happen.

not everythings a conspiracy

You ever see the stride gum commercials? Well, if they made cars that we could maintain, they'd never be able to push new ones on us... Everything IS a conspiracy! Leave me in the matrix! LOL

 

[Rob Mayercik]

Personally I hate AW4 transmissions. So run whatever you feel like and hope for the best.

Mind if I ask why this intense dislike for the AW4?

Oh, and my TDI has a "sealed" trans - no dipstick. Pain in the @55 to service because you need to get it up to temp (based on scantool reading), off the ground level, and then pull the drain plug out to see if it dribbles. My factory trans on the TDI blew 8K out of warranty, VW essentially said "K.M.A. $5000 please." 30-45K fluid changes since the reman installed, been good for now (105K on reman currently).

Rob

 

[pipes94xj]

Moms 02 Saturn has a sealed tranny, no dipstick. Owners manual says its a "maintence free transmission." Wanted to change the fluid/filter...no sir. Been high revving and when it shifts it throws you. Mechanic said its going to go, and I agree. 130,00 miles, but its been doing this for 15,000.

Back on topic, Walmart sells their brand Super Tech ATF...says it is for Mer/Dex III...I bought it before I read this thread...any thoughts????

From experience I did fluid/filter change in my old 94' with Dex III and added slick 50 tranny treatment. Traded it in with 150,000 and never slipped, clunked, anything. Shifted hard and strong.

 

[4WDXJ]

Very interesting, But can I use Dex/Merc labeled Ford / Ac Delco or it has to be Mopar / Chry thing.

This thread strongly recommend Dex, while I found other forums majority
recommends ATF +4, I am kinda going with DexIII,,,,,,, like they say " go with the flow.......

 

[4x4xj89]

Dex III

 

[birchlakeXJ]

Asin Warner spec'd the AW4 for Dexron

CHRYSLER came out with the TSB stating ATF+4 is okay for the AW4

There are more than a few threads of some with the AW4 (certainly not all to be fair) that have had trouble with ATF+4. These threads seem relatively credible, as when they switched back to Dexron/Mercon, there "new" symptoms subsided.

I agree that the devil is in the details and that the issue, when there is one, may be because of the friction modifiers in the ATF+4.

In summation, if SOME have trouble with ATF+4 and NOBODY has a problem directly related to Dexron/Mercon III, I would continue to run Dexron/Mercon III compatible fluid (true Dex/Merc III is no longer produced/licensed).

But to each their own...that is what makes the world go round