wavingpine11
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central PA
This thread is dedicated to the ridiculousness of "nominal" tire sizes that end up being stamped onto tires by manufacturers who otherwise want to be able to claim some kind of credibility in the marketplace. It's also going to serve as a review of the Super Swamper LTB in 35x12.5-16LT on Interco Birddog 16x9 wheels with the standard 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern and 3.5 inch backspacing. I am a bit of a storyteller, so please bear with me.
To put this discussion in context, I have been looking for the perfect tire for my 90% offroad-only '98 XJ for months. I'm currently running a set of BFG KM2's in the 33x10.5-15 flavor on stock XJ alloy wheels. For most of the wheeling that I do, they are a pretty good option, but they kind of suck in thick, sticky mud. I use 1.25" wheel spacers and am happy with the fitment with my ~5.5 inches of lift and some trimming. The tires are nearly new and on a skinny rim which should maximize their actual installed height. The KM2s measure about 31.5 inches rather than even being close to 33 inches as they sit on the Jeep.
I decided to search for a much more aggressive 35" tire due to having unsettled business with a particularly tricky mud hole that is nearby. Years ago, I first encountered the hole completely unaware of its history or reputation and sunk my then-girlfriend's '01 XJ with an 8" Rusty's long arm lift and 33x12.5x15" Dunlop Mud Rovers hopelessly into the mire. What looked like a little bit of standing water on a little bit more mud actually turned out to be a bottomless clay hole fed by an underground spring. I entered the hole a bit to the left, and the left tire was nearly submerged and the right tire was nowhere to be seen. There was no driving anywhere once we were in that pit. She also had open differentials and that didn't help. After an hour and a half with a come-along, we were back out. We've been in that area many times since, but we never attempted to cross the hole again since nothing new had changed on her Jeep or mine to make us think we had any chance of making it. But there was occasionally evidence that other people had tried and failed to make it through as well. The hole is just about a Jeep long, and about a third of a Jeep deep, so I think it swallows up vehicles and the bottomless mud then gives no traction for the uphill exit and that's it--stuck.
Back on topic. I've been interested in conquering this mud hole for years. Now I live 15 minutes rather than 4 hours away from it. I have other sets of tires if the Jeep needs to assume DD duty plus a nice onroad car, so I've come to the point where I'm ready to get a set of dedicated offroad tires. Anyway, the 33x10.5's fit fine. Additionally, the 33x12.5 Mud Rovers on Cragar 15x10 and 4" backspace fit fine. So I started thinking about getting some 35x12.5's with a super-aggressive tread to help me pull it off. I don't want Super Swamer Boggers. I know that's one of the best choices for this type of scenario, but I want more sidehill traction and honestly, although I'm obsessed with this mud hole, I'd rather do other stuff that is less icky most of the time. Where I live, in the Appalachian hills, there isn't much mud anyway. Most of the mud is 4-6" thick with a hard rock bottom and some water sitting on it. So Boggers are out, mostly because I can't justify the cost of them simply based on the vanity of traversing the only real mud hole within many miles. Because I'm not going to have to DD this, my second best choice as I see it would be the Super Swamper LTB. I liked the 34x10.5 size tire, but based on prior experience at the infamous "Turtle Hole," as the locals have dubbed it, I was sure that I needed more width than that for greater flotation given how deep the hole is, and more height also for good measure. I was elated when I discovered that the tire was manufactured in a 35x12.5-15 size also, although I could scarely find any references to it on any forums or the internet at large. I had been leaning toward the 36x13.5-15 IROKs until that point, but I was scared that they were going to be too large for the Jeep and I wanted to be able to get the tires mounted and wheel it right away, and Interco's website claimed an actual height of 36.8 inches. I actually preferred the TSL-SX, but they were also too large also, with sizes like 33x15.5 or 35x15.5 just seeming incredibly too wide for my setup. I had been reading a lot of stories about axle shaft breakage with these sizes also, so I wasn't 100% comfortable with those choices for several reasons. So when I discovered the 35 inch LTB, with it's more aggressive tread, and a claimed actual height of 35 inches, I was elated! I quickly discovered that these are not easy tires to find for sale, even though the 34x10.5-15s seem to be easily had from multiple sources. Finally I found a place that claimed to have them in stock. I ordered 5 of them. A friend had gotten me a set of super cheap used 15x10 rims that seemed like they would be a pretty good match for these tires, so I was stoked about only having to buy a single spare steel wheel. I placed my order, only to find out the next week that not only did they not have them in stock, but they claimed Interco was also discontinuing the tire and that they (meaning the company I placed the order through) were dropping the Interco line entirely.
I had one other option in 35 inch LTBs, but that option was the not-quite-the-same 35x12.5-16. I think the 15" version was a load range C and the 16" was a load range E. Since these are going on a Cherokee, I was a little wary, since I wanted to be able to get some tire flex without resorting to running beadlocks at 0-2 psi. In the end, my lust for that particular tire led me to place the order anyway, and my plan was to run them on the not particularly popular Interco Birddog 16x9" wheel with 3.5" backspace, which according to my calculations would put the actual tire in just about the same exact spot as the 33x12.5's on the 10" wide wheel with the 4" backspace. As far as I could tell, the Birddog should allow me to air down to high single digits, do some reasonably fun stuff, and have less chance of losing a bead on the tire vs. running a regular non-beadlock wheel. I read a review of these wheels and the reviewer had pushed them down to 5 psi without losing a bead. This, and the utter difficulty of finding wheels with a workable offset and backspacing funneled me to the Birddogs, which seem to be almost universally hated for their ugliness. Frankly, my whole Jeep is ugly as hell. These wheels aren't going to make things any worse.
If you're still with me, good--let us proceed further! The tires showed up this past Friday. I'm a huge fan of the tread pattern, and am happy with my choice in that regard. However, the tires, not mounted on wheels yet, measure 33 inches tall. Interco claims this is an actual 35 inch tire. Moreover, the tire looks no wider than my 10.5 inch wide KM2s, and definitely less wide than the Mud Rovers. I have a mounted brand new full size spare Rover, and it is 32 inches high when not installed on the vehicle. Perhaps this undersizing is a good thing, while I'm still running the Dana 30 up front, but I feel pretty let down by the claimed size of these tires. I knew that most tires are not the size that are stamped on them, but I figured that if a manufacturer specifically listed the height as a separate piece of data that there might be some correlation with reality, and in this case it's off by 2 inches. The worst part of this is that I specifically wanted a wider tire, and I'm just not seeing it. In general I like skinny tires, but that's not what I was going for here.
Hopefully the wheels come this week and I can get out and put them to task. I'll post up some pictures of the tires in the meantime, and also discuss the minor upgrades to the front axle that will hopefully be up to the task of pushing these hunks of rubber around.
In the meantime, if you have any experience with these tires or wheels, feel free to throw out your impressions on them or anything else vaguely related to the subjects at hand! If you think I've made a terrible choice with E rated tires, I'd like to know that also. The wheeling will reveal all in the end, but for right now I'm not wheeling, I'm just working on my front axle and waiting for the wheels to show up. I think I'm going to balance them with 10 ounces of beads and not even bother with lead weights. These are said to be some of the worst road tires on the planet in terms of roundness and balance, and I knew that going into this.
To put this discussion in context, I have been looking for the perfect tire for my 90% offroad-only '98 XJ for months. I'm currently running a set of BFG KM2's in the 33x10.5-15 flavor on stock XJ alloy wheels. For most of the wheeling that I do, they are a pretty good option, but they kind of suck in thick, sticky mud. I use 1.25" wheel spacers and am happy with the fitment with my ~5.5 inches of lift and some trimming. The tires are nearly new and on a skinny rim which should maximize their actual installed height. The KM2s measure about 31.5 inches rather than even being close to 33 inches as they sit on the Jeep.
I decided to search for a much more aggressive 35" tire due to having unsettled business with a particularly tricky mud hole that is nearby. Years ago, I first encountered the hole completely unaware of its history or reputation and sunk my then-girlfriend's '01 XJ with an 8" Rusty's long arm lift and 33x12.5x15" Dunlop Mud Rovers hopelessly into the mire. What looked like a little bit of standing water on a little bit more mud actually turned out to be a bottomless clay hole fed by an underground spring. I entered the hole a bit to the left, and the left tire was nearly submerged and the right tire was nowhere to be seen. There was no driving anywhere once we were in that pit. She also had open differentials and that didn't help. After an hour and a half with a come-along, we were back out. We've been in that area many times since, but we never attempted to cross the hole again since nothing new had changed on her Jeep or mine to make us think we had any chance of making it. But there was occasionally evidence that other people had tried and failed to make it through as well. The hole is just about a Jeep long, and about a third of a Jeep deep, so I think it swallows up vehicles and the bottomless mud then gives no traction for the uphill exit and that's it--stuck.
Back on topic. I've been interested in conquering this mud hole for years. Now I live 15 minutes rather than 4 hours away from it. I have other sets of tires if the Jeep needs to assume DD duty plus a nice onroad car, so I've come to the point where I'm ready to get a set of dedicated offroad tires. Anyway, the 33x10.5's fit fine. Additionally, the 33x12.5 Mud Rovers on Cragar 15x10 and 4" backspace fit fine. So I started thinking about getting some 35x12.5's with a super-aggressive tread to help me pull it off. I don't want Super Swamer Boggers. I know that's one of the best choices for this type of scenario, but I want more sidehill traction and honestly, although I'm obsessed with this mud hole, I'd rather do other stuff that is less icky most of the time. Where I live, in the Appalachian hills, there isn't much mud anyway. Most of the mud is 4-6" thick with a hard rock bottom and some water sitting on it. So Boggers are out, mostly because I can't justify the cost of them simply based on the vanity of traversing the only real mud hole within many miles. Because I'm not going to have to DD this, my second best choice as I see it would be the Super Swamper LTB. I liked the 34x10.5 size tire, but based on prior experience at the infamous "Turtle Hole," as the locals have dubbed it, I was sure that I needed more width than that for greater flotation given how deep the hole is, and more height also for good measure. I was elated when I discovered that the tire was manufactured in a 35x12.5-15 size also, although I could scarely find any references to it on any forums or the internet at large. I had been leaning toward the 36x13.5-15 IROKs until that point, but I was scared that they were going to be too large for the Jeep and I wanted to be able to get the tires mounted and wheel it right away, and Interco's website claimed an actual height of 36.8 inches. I actually preferred the TSL-SX, but they were also too large also, with sizes like 33x15.5 or 35x15.5 just seeming incredibly too wide for my setup. I had been reading a lot of stories about axle shaft breakage with these sizes also, so I wasn't 100% comfortable with those choices for several reasons. So when I discovered the 35 inch LTB, with it's more aggressive tread, and a claimed actual height of 35 inches, I was elated! I quickly discovered that these are not easy tires to find for sale, even though the 34x10.5-15s seem to be easily had from multiple sources. Finally I found a place that claimed to have them in stock. I ordered 5 of them. A friend had gotten me a set of super cheap used 15x10 rims that seemed like they would be a pretty good match for these tires, so I was stoked about only having to buy a single spare steel wheel. I placed my order, only to find out the next week that not only did they not have them in stock, but they claimed Interco was also discontinuing the tire and that they (meaning the company I placed the order through) were dropping the Interco line entirely.
I had one other option in 35 inch LTBs, but that option was the not-quite-the-same 35x12.5-16. I think the 15" version was a load range C and the 16" was a load range E. Since these are going on a Cherokee, I was a little wary, since I wanted to be able to get some tire flex without resorting to running beadlocks at 0-2 psi. In the end, my lust for that particular tire led me to place the order anyway, and my plan was to run them on the not particularly popular Interco Birddog 16x9" wheel with 3.5" backspace, which according to my calculations would put the actual tire in just about the same exact spot as the 33x12.5's on the 10" wide wheel with the 4" backspace. As far as I could tell, the Birddog should allow me to air down to high single digits, do some reasonably fun stuff, and have less chance of losing a bead on the tire vs. running a regular non-beadlock wheel. I read a review of these wheels and the reviewer had pushed them down to 5 psi without losing a bead. This, and the utter difficulty of finding wheels with a workable offset and backspacing funneled me to the Birddogs, which seem to be almost universally hated for their ugliness. Frankly, my whole Jeep is ugly as hell. These wheels aren't going to make things any worse.
If you're still with me, good--let us proceed further! The tires showed up this past Friday. I'm a huge fan of the tread pattern, and am happy with my choice in that regard. However, the tires, not mounted on wheels yet, measure 33 inches tall. Interco claims this is an actual 35 inch tire. Moreover, the tire looks no wider than my 10.5 inch wide KM2s, and definitely less wide than the Mud Rovers. I have a mounted brand new full size spare Rover, and it is 32 inches high when not installed on the vehicle. Perhaps this undersizing is a good thing, while I'm still running the Dana 30 up front, but I feel pretty let down by the claimed size of these tires. I knew that most tires are not the size that are stamped on them, but I figured that if a manufacturer specifically listed the height as a separate piece of data that there might be some correlation with reality, and in this case it's off by 2 inches. The worst part of this is that I specifically wanted a wider tire, and I'm just not seeing it. In general I like skinny tires, but that's not what I was going for here.
Hopefully the wheels come this week and I can get out and put them to task. I'll post up some pictures of the tires in the meantime, and also discuss the minor upgrades to the front axle that will hopefully be up to the task of pushing these hunks of rubber around.
In the meantime, if you have any experience with these tires or wheels, feel free to throw out your impressions on them or anything else vaguely related to the subjects at hand! If you think I've made a terrible choice with E rated tires, I'd like to know that also. The wheeling will reveal all in the end, but for right now I'm not wheeling, I'm just working on my front axle and waiting for the wheels to show up. I think I'm going to balance them with 10 ounces of beads and not even bother with lead weights. These are said to be some of the worst road tires on the planet in terms of roundness and balance, and I knew that going into this.