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time to PO the ricers

2wd or 4wd

  • 2wd

    Votes: 43 13.2%

  • 4wd

    Votes: 282 86.8%
  • Total voters
    325
aspera said:
The last ass that I handled felt pretty good, but that's another story.

How much driving/modding experience does your buddy have? Does he know how to trail brake or install a thicker rear sway bar? Or is his other car a Porsche?
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How'd you guess he had a Porsche!? It's a 996 Quad Turbo that does 300 Mph in 10 seconds flat and can take corners at 200 Mph..

But seriously I don't know for sure if he can do all that stuff, he said it felt like ass because he was getting thrown around in it and he wanted another car, and that's that. If you like being thrown around in your car that's fine by me, I don't care any, your the one that's driving it..
 
Does he have a Porsche or are you just being silly?

If being "thrown around" means cornering hard, then yeah, I dig it. My favorite part of an autocross course is the slalom.
 
Of course I'm being silly, althought I wish he had a Porsche. I saw episodes on Top Gear about the WRX and the EVO and I'm like thinking to myself how the hell he stays in his seat. That was one of his big complaints too, getting thrown around like a ragdoll in there. I just don't like that personally, for Pete's sake my Jeep don't throw me around that much. It's too soft to begin with and there are cars out there that are not ment to take a corner hard like the WRX and don't sway or throw the driver around. Not to mention all the electronics that help you drive, what fun is that. It's a great car it's just that they famboozeled it.. royaly.
 
John(XJ) Not to mention all the electronics that help you drive said:
Famboozeled? Now you're just making up words. :laugh3:

The electronic stuff is a good thing. ABS is good (unless you're on gravel). Electronically controlled differentials are also good. They help manage torque similar to what lockers do in an offroad vehicle. You agree that lockers are good, right?

The cool thing is that total torque control and vehicle contol is a goal that is getting closer year by year. I like the idea of a vehicle that can tell when I'm braking, turing-in, cornering, and exiting. I like the idea that it can progressively open or lock all three diffs and vary torque front-to-rear as well as side-to-side. I also like the idea of a "manual mode" and on/off switch for these functions. You never know when you might have to do a four-wheel burnout. :wave:
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aspera said:
Famboozeled? Now you're just making up words. :laugh3:

The electronic stuff is a good thing. ABS is good (unless you're on gravel). Electronically controlled differentials are also good. They help manage torque similar to what lockers do in an offroad vehicle. You agree that lockers are good, right?

The cool thing is that total torque control and vehicle contol is a goal that is getting closer year by year. I like the idea of a vehicle that can tell when I'm braking, turing-in, cornering, and exiting. I like the idea that it can progressively open or lock all three diffs and vary torque front-to-rear as well as side-to-side. I also like the idea of a "manual mode" and on/off switch for these functions. You never know when you might have to do a four-wheel burnout. :wave:
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I think john was talking about the complexity of those systems when compared to an equivalent mechanical system or just a well trained driver and the extra weight caused by the computer(s) and wiring those systems require to operate.
 
Sort of like that I guess. I just don't like electronics in my car and I prefer to do the driving rather than my car. It's really good in a sense for people who can't really drive that well to begin with so electronic helpers are a bonus for them. My Jeep has enough electronics in it for me to tolerate and I'm happy that I have to do all the figureing and corrections.

Famboozeled is a great word, it's not as harsh as some words like "screwed" or "messed" but it's subtle enough to still get the point across. When you drive a Subaru you might as well be the passenger.. getting thrown around of course.
 
I don't like the way that you dismiss performance equipment as merely electronic helpers for people who can't really drive that well to begin with. These electronics were created for motorsports (in this case rallly). I don't think WRC drivers are "people who can't really drive that well to begin with".

That makes as much sense as not liking four-wheel-drive because it is too complex and heavy...and REAL drivers only need two-wheel-drive. Do you drive a 2WD Jeep?

ABS is a good example of how everyone can have performance that EXCEEDS what even a professional race car driver can do. While it adds some weight, cost, and complexity to a vehicle...would you buy a car without it for your wife to drive your kids around? No.

Electronic fuel injection is another good thing. Maybe you like lower gas mileage. Maybe you like it when your Jeep won't start in winter. Maybe you like it when your Jeep stalls on rough hills. I'd rather have EFI.
 
---I don't like the way that you dismiss performance equipment as merely electronic helpers for people who can't really drive that well to begin with. These electronics were created for motorsports (in this case rallly). I don't think WRC drivers are "people who can't really drive that well to begin with".---

Rally drivers are great drivers in the first place. and they have all the electronic stuff paid for by sponsors because they are good drivers.

---That makes as much sense as not liking four-wheel-drive because it is too complex and heavy...and REAL drivers only need two-wheel-drive. Do you drive a 2WD Jeep?---

Real drivers at all times are aware of everything that is going on in there vehicle. traction control is un-predicable as well as vehicle stability...bla-bla-bla. Yes, unpredicable because it acts without driver input automatically. yeah sure you know when you start to spin a wheel and it automatically adds bias to the brake on the spinning wheel, sure you can predict that or sense when its gonna happen.


---ABS is a good example of how everyone can have performance that EXCEEDS what even a professional race car driver can do. While it adds some weight, cost, and complexity to a vehicle...would you buy a car without it for your wife to drive your kids around? No.---

Yes, I would. Because I expect my wife to be a safe, alert driver that does not rely on features to do the driving for her.
 
"Real drivers at all times are aware of everything that is going on in there vehicle. traction control is un-predicable as well as vehicle stability...bla-bla-bla. Yes, unpredicable because it acts without driver input automatically. yeah sure you know when you start to spin a wheel and it automatically adds bias to the brake on the spinning wheel, sure you can predict that or sense when its gonna happen.

Yes, I would. Because I expect my wife to be a safe, alert driver that does not rely on features to do the driving for her."

Automatic Torque Biasing is not the same thing as Vehicle Stability Control or Traction Control, but those have uses too. I was lucky enough to drive a new Porsche Carrera recently. Luckily, it had traction control. When you're painting two 295mm wide black stripes on the pavement, you don't want to zing past redline. $$$!!! Again, I think these electronics should have an on/off switch.

As far as the unpredictable nature of automatic stuff in an automobile, have you ever owned a vehicle with an automatic transmission? Automatics are 100x worse than some electronic program that is going to pinch a brake disk a little bit.

There are currently NO cars ON EARTH that you can buy that will do the driving for you. ABS just keeps the car from locking up the brakes and losing all ability to steer. Braking distance is usually shorter, too.

I bet you'll love the new Jeeps coming out. They are rumoured to have CVT!
:kissyou:
 
---ABS is a good example of how everyone can have performance that EXCEEDS what even a professional race car driver can do. While it adds some weight, cost, and complexity to a vehicle...would you buy a car without it for your wife to drive your kids around? No.---

WHAT THE HELL THEN DID YOUR WIFE AND KIDS DRIVE IN WHEN ABS WAS NON EXISTENT? SO THAT MEANS BY YOUR STATEMENT THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE STUPID DRIVERS THEN? HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN A CAR WITH FAILING ABS BRAKES? THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MOMENT-WHY DO WE NEED ABS AND AIR BAGS IN CARS TODAY? TO HAVE BETTER FUEL ECONOMY CARS ARE BUILT OF THIN SHEET METAL AND PLASTIC TO REDUCE WEIGHT - SO ABS AND AIR BAGS ARE USED TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LACK OF PROTECTION TO MAKE THEM SAFE AGAIN- BY THE WAY I LOVE THE "5 MPH IMPACT BUMBERS" UNDER THAT PLASTIS THERE IS LITTERALY STYROFOAM! COOL SO IF MY CAR GOES IN THE RIVER IT WILL FLOAT WITH ALL THAT PLASTIC AND STYROFOAM HUH?
 
I'm not saying anything about ABS, and I still think ricers are morons (and I have unique perspective for an anti-ricer on the subject since I'm driving the "legendary" Nissan Skyline [stupid Fast and the Furious lastara] for the 2 next years) but I will agree that most drivers are morons :laugh::moon::laugh:
 
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Mister ALL CAPS is a little hard to follow, but it sounds like he thinks new cars need heavy ABS and heavy airbags to make the cars safe because they are built using lighter, thinner sheetmetal.

It sounds like he thinks that the bumper beams are made out of styrofoam. Doesn't he realize that the beams are made out of steel (or aluminum), and the polystyrene foam just keeps the plastic bumper cap from sagging.

Let's look at the XJ for a second. Thin sheetmetal? Check. Cheezy bumpers? Check. Airbags? Check. ABS? Check. You really can't say much about Import cars when you drive an XJ.

Let's take the Skyline for example. It has a 2.6L (assuming it is and R34) straight 6 engine that is much smaller than the 4.0L in the XJ. Yet, this little engine is 100x more awesome. It is so much better that you don't even rate it by horsepower or torque. You just say how much more awesome it is. :D

Even the rear diff on the Skyline is way more kickass. Check it.
 
aspera - "I don't like the way that you dismiss performance equipment as merely electronic helpers for people who can't really drive that well to begin with."

I can dismiss it because I have a right to my opinion. I don't like it, I think most of the time they are usless just because these new cars are getting in accidents and they like to fail and their costly. They give you a false sense of safety to an extent and they give a numbing feeling to the car. I have 4 wheel drive too, not used everyday. I only use it if 2 wheels are definatly not enough which fortunatly is rare.

aspera - "These electronics were created for motorsports (in this case rallly). I don't think WRC drivers are "people who can't really drive that well to begin with."

Never said that 'they' were bad drivers, but I'm sure they ditch cars quite often in cars of yesteryear and even in todays cars. Theres 3 things about this; 1. Yes, old rally cars were less capable than today's; 2. People did tend to die more back then too and 3. I still think drivers 20-30 years ago were much better than drivers today considering what cars they had to drive when on the same tracks.

aspera - "ABS is a good example of how everyone can have performance that EXCEEDS what even a professional race car driver can do. While it adds some weight, cost, and complexity to a vehicle...would you buy a car without it for your wife to drive your kids around? No."

So were all are racecar drivers now then? Since most of us has ABS on our cars we can clearly call ourselves undisputed racecar drivers. That kind of thinking gets you KILLED. And I don't know what my wife and kids would want seeing that I don't have any but I do have three sisters that use older cars without all this shit, been driving for 15 years, have kids and never got in an accident, two parents that never drove a car with ABS or any other junk for 35-40 years and there the ones who got ran into twice from behind for both.. what does that tell you?

aspera - "Electronic fuel injection is another good thing. Maybe you like lower gas mileage. Maybe you like it when your Jeep won't start in winter. Maybe you like it when your Jeep stalls on rough hills. I'd rather have EFI."

I have MPI I beleive its one of the simplest Fuel Injection systems you can have and I have never had one single little problem with it for the life of the vehicle (18 years).

Rawbrown - "Real drivers at all times are aware of everything that is going on in there vehicle. traction control is un-predicable as well as vehicle stability...bla-bla-bla. Yes, unpredicable because it acts without driver input automatically. yeah sure you know when you start to spin a wheel and it automatically adds bias to the brake on the spinning wheel, sure you can predict that or sense when its gonna happen."

You see, I don't want the computers in the car counteracting what I'm trying to do. It's bad enough that the computer takes control and you don't know about it.

aspera - "It sounds like he thinks that the bumper beams are made out of styrofoam. Doesn't he realize that the beams are made out of steel (or aluminum), and the polystyrene foam just keeps the plastic bumper cap from sagging."

Aluminum itself is not strong, Aircraft aluminum or T6 is strong but that's way to costly to incorperate into the modern, mortal automobiles. A thin stamped steel sheet is mostly used and sometimes thick plastic is used. Do you want just a thin peice and a slightly thicker peice of plastic between you and a 1-1/2 tonne doing 45 Mph into you? How does this make it safe when all bumpers on new vehicles are rated for 5-10 Mph impacts before air bags go off? Yeah, I like getting hit at slow speed like 20 Mph but it's fast enough to do $4000 dollars damage and the airbag snapping my head back.

aspera - "Let's look at the XJ for a second. Thin sheetmetal? Check. Cheezy bumpers? Check. Airbags? Check. ABS? Check. You really can't say much about Import cars when you drive an XJ."

My XJ doesn't have anymore electronics than what is need to run my MPI system, everything else is pretty much unrelated to the ability of it moving.

I've seen a Jeep Commanche hit head on with a Flatbed F250 on Real TV, the guy fell out of the flatbed nearly unconcious and the guy in the commanche jumped over the hood and arrested his ass. I've seen an XJ get hit by a train in the back and still look like an XJ, it was in the paper too.

aspera - "Let's take the Skyline for example. It has a 2.6L (assuming it is and R34) straight 6 engine that is much smaller than the 4.0L in the XJ. Yet, this little engine is 100x more awesome. It is so much better that you don't even rate it by horsepower or torque. You just say how much more awesome it is.

Even the rear diff on the Skyline is way more kickass. Check it."

Talk about exaggeration, how about a Skyline from the same year when the Cherokee came out with its 4.0L? Why don't you compare those and see how long it took for nissan to surpass the HP of the 4.0L?

100 TIMES MORE AWESOME?!?!? REALLY DOES IT MAKE 200,000 HP?!?!?
Maybe twice as good but still Jeep is making 450 HP engines by standard now, what the Skyline put out now.. 300 HP and it's being discontinued?? Also I'd like to see a skyline rear diff handle a rock crawling weekend. Most of them are rated higher than superduty trucks which can haul Transport Truck Traillers with full loads with out breaking and these guys bust them like their nothing and you think a Skyline rear diff is much better.

Cjmartz2k - "I'm not saying anything about ABS, and I still think ricers are morons (and I have unique perspective for an anti-ricer on the subject since I'm driving the "legendary" Nissan Skyline [stupid Fast and the Furious ] for the 2 next years) but I will agree that most drivers are morons."

There you go, see.
 
Just a quick FYI--

The twin turbo RB26DETT motor you speak of came in the R32, R33, & R34 models. It is, however, exclusive to the GT-R, not the non-turbo GTS (RB20DE/RB25DE) or single turbo GTS-t (RB20DET/RB25DET). The motor itself is not all that amazing, but trust me, when you put 1.7 bar into any motor (1 bar = 14.7 psi) it'll go, and no, you can't do that without internall engine modification. People do however drive aournd on 1.2 bar all day every day with even the factory turbo(s) and headgasket which makes for a pretty fast car (low 13's/high 12's). Try runing 25psi into a built 4.6L stroker and see what kinda power you could make. Now that I think about it, maybe I'll start saving my $ for when I get back to the states:roll:

There are a couple of different diffs and both would SUCK for anything other than street driving (to include proffesional racing). There is the viscous diff(s) in the R32's like mine that never really wear out or break because the are basically a "fan" blowing diff fluid at another "fan". This obviously has no parts to wear out, but it also doesn't do very good job for getting both tires spinning. The newer diff is the "active" diff which is a computer controlled cone type LSD which works good in theory, but breaks a lot and most people upgrade to the aftermarket if they want real power. The nice thing about the viscous diff's though is you can do 6k RPM clutch drops with all wheel drive like me :guitar: and you fly usaully without breaking things (I have gone through a clutch already though).
 
John(XJ)Jeep said:
I've seen a Jeep Commanche hit head on with a Flatbed F250 on Real TV, the guy fell out of the flatbed nearly unconcious and the guy in the commanche jumped over the hood and arrested his ass.
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I need to see that. Does anyone know of a place to find that clip? I want to see what the Mj can take.
 
I was watching a show last night about the Korean Air Lines jet that was shot down by the Russians, a comment at the end was pretty approriate for where this is going. I can't remmeber all of it but it was something to the effect the pilots wer relying too much on the computer to fly the planes instead of doing the main part of they flying themselves.
 
Cjmartz2k said:
Just a quick FYI--

The twin turbo RB26DETT motor you speak of came in the R32, R33, & R34 models. It is, however, exclusive to the GT-R, not the non-turbo GTS (RB20DE/RB25DE) or single turbo GTS-t (RB20DET/RB25DET). The motor itself is not all that amazing, but trust me, when you put 1.7 bar into any motor (1 bar = 14.7 psi) it'll go, and no, you can't do that without internall engine modification. People do however drive aournd on 1.2 bar all day every day with even the factory turbo(s) and headgasket which makes for a pretty fast car (low 13's/high 12's). Try runing 25psi into a built 4.6L stroker and see what kinda power you could make. Now that I think about it, maybe I'll start saving my $ for when I get back to the states:roll:

There are a couple of different diffs and both would SUCK for anything other than street driving (to include proffesional racing). There is the viscous diff(s) in the R32's like mine that never really wear out or break because the are basically a "fan" blowing diff fluid at another "fan". This obviously has no parts to wear out, but it also doesn't do very good job for getting both tires spinning. The newer diff is the "active" diff which is a computer controlled cone type LSD which works good in theory, but breaks a lot and most people upgrade to the aftermarket if they want real power. The nice thing about the viscous diff's though is you can do 6k RPM clutch drops with all wheel drive like me :guitar: and you fly usaully without breaking things (I have gone through a clutch already though).
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My mistake on the RB26. I wasn't sure what year/models that it came in. I thought that it was a R34 GT-R only. RB25 single turbo for most others including the Holden cars, right? Comparing engines gets a little benchracer-ish here because I'm wanting to compare a mildly modded streetable RB26 to almost any straight 6 Cherokee motor...while the other guy is wanting to compare the factory ratings of a RB26 to factory ratings of a 6.1L Hemi (I think).

How much horsepower does that Skyline really make bone stock? With an exhaust and re-flash?

How many 6k RPM clutch drops can an XJ do? :laugh3:

Granted, the Skyline rear end would be a poor choice for offroading on 44's. But, so would an XJ rear end. It would be better to compare it to rivals, like the GTO/Monaro and the 300C/Charger. I don't even know if you could call those domestic. One is an Aussie and the other has German roots.
 
John(XJ)Jeep said:
I've seen an XJ get hit by a train in the back and still look like an XJ, it was in the paper too.
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I'll skip all the rest and point out what I notice in just this one sentence.

I work on the railroad, and a few years ago our train hit a semi truck. It exploded. Big fireball. Now why would an XJ survive when a Mack truck was slapped out of the way like a hooker? Well... You say it was hit "in the back". You also omitted the speed of impact. A glancing blow at 15 mph is nowhere near the same thing as a direct hit at 55-70MPH.

Now I'm wondering WHY the XJ was hit. Sounds like driver error to me. Was the guy trying to beat the train? Did he drive around the gates? Those tracks didn't just get laid down yesterday. The train didn't swerve to hit the Jeep either.

Was the Jeep white? Railroads use white XJs, sometimes.

The details make the difference. That one sentence makes it sound like an XJ is a freakin' tank. The reality is the XJ got off easy. One engine alone weighs 400,000 pounds. A train can weigh 16,000 TONS. A Cherokee weighs ~4000 pounds. I bet the only part that still looked like an XJ was the part that didn't get hit.
 
I'm not to sure about actual to the wheels numbers--they rate them at 276hp, but that's total BS. Until recently, the most any JDM manufacturer would rate a car was 276 as kind of a gentleman's agreement so they wouldn't get into a HP war, even though though are much stronger then that--kinda like the 225hp Buick GN, although I think they did that for insurrance purposes. I'm not sure about other cars with the RB25DET here, and we don't have Holden here either, I think that's just Aussie's. The one thing I like about the Skyline is that for $900 worth of used/junkyard exhuast, intake, and boost controller parts you can bump it up almost 100hp without much effort. To do more than that however, you've go to spend BIG BIG money to go any faster (very min bigger turbo, pulling the head for the metal head gasket, new injectors, fuel pump, standalone cpu or a lot of dyno work, etc). The RB26 or any of the turbo RB series motors will have an easy advantage making HP over the 4.0L--it's turbocharged, twice in the case of the RB26. It does however make NO low end torque and would be HORRIBLE in a jeep. They are for two completely differant things. Low end torque isn't an issue when you are drag racing and are above 4K RPM the entire time. That's actaully how driffting started. Guys autocrossing with turbo 4/6 bangers can't make it stick around the corners and keep the motor in the boost (powerband) so they keep in the gas and hang the ass end out. It just evolved into something else because, as we all know, smokin'em sideways around a corner is lotza fun. The viscous diff gives less traction than the trash-lok in the factory jeep rear ends, it just stands up to ludacris abuse because there's nothing to wear out. Don't get me wrong, I love my Skyline, but I'm still an american muscle guy.
 
aspera said:
I'll skip all the rest and point out what I notice in just this one sentence.

I work on the railroad, and a few years ago our train hit a semi truck. It exploded. Big fireball. Now why would an XJ survive when a Mack truck was slapped out of the way like a hooker? Well... You say it was hit "in the back". You also omitted the speed of impact. A glancing blow at 15 mph is nowhere near the same thing as a direct hit at 55-70MPH.

Now I'm wondering WHY the XJ was hit. Sounds like driver error to me. Was the guy trying to beat the train? Did he drive around the gates? Those tracks didn't just get laid down yesterday. The train didn't swerve to hit the Jeep either.

Was the Jeep white? Railroads use white XJs, sometimes.

The details make the difference. That one sentence makes it sound like an XJ is a freakin' tank. The reality is the XJ got off easy. One engine alone weighs 400,000 pounds. A train can weigh 16,000 TONS. A Cherokee weighs ~4000 pounds. I bet the only part that still looked like an XJ was the part that didn't get hit.
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Yea, couldn't have been much of a hit, Dad used to work for the railroad and brought home a headlight bezel from a CHerokee hit on a crossing he was in charge of maintaining, it was one of the larger parts too. Did you hear about the Metra wreck out here the day before Thanksgiving aspera? Commuter train nailed 6 cars directly in it's path, collecting all the cars sitting ON the crossing while waiting on a light and collecting a few more for good measure. Took out 15-17 cars in one shot, but somehow not killing anybody! The engineer was exonerated (sp?) by the NTSB, guess he did everything he could to stop the train and had called 911 to let them know there was going to be a BIG wreck and needed to emergency crews on the move before the train hit anything, but according to the husband of the worst injured driver, the NTSB doesn't know what they're talking about and his wife was a safe driver who didn't have any tickets even though she was illegally parked on the tracks with the crossing gate down hasta
 
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